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Any Idea for every year HOA board member vote can not reach the Quorum

Started by TravisC1 • 41 replies • 973 views

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TravisC1 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Hello Everyone,

I am a homeowner live in a big community in south California, every year we will have the election for board members, we try our best to notify all of our neighbor go to vote, but unforgettably. we only reach our 25% quorum in 2016. So every year the current incumbent board member will stay in board, my question is If quorum is not met at the upcoming Annual Election (25% of voting power), the Board will reconvene the meeting to another date in the near future (not less than 5 days and no more than 30 days)). If quorum is not met at the Reconvened Annual Meeting, the current Board will remain until the 2021 Annual Election. But why cannot HOA open to current vote they received and counting the votes to select the board director for reference? 25% quorum is California law or HOA rules? If every year we cannot reach the quorum and no current board resign ,they will stay in the board forever? Is there anyway we can do right now?

Thank you
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 2:22 PM
But why cannot HOA open to current vote they received and counting the votes to select the board director for reference?
Because your HOA's Bylaws and California statute do not authorize this as the way to proceed. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/No-Quorum .
Quote:
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 2:22 PM
25% quorum is California law or HOA rules?
It is not California law. It is probably what your HOA's Bylaws specify.
Quote:
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 2:22 PM
If every year we cannot reach the quorum and no current board resign ,they will stay in the board forever?
Yes. But keep in mind that they stay forever because the HOA members do not wish to show up and vote. Sometimes this is a sign that most of the HOA members are satisfied with the current board and do not want change. In other words, it's not just you against the board. It's you against either an apathetic membership or a membership that is fine with the status quo.
Quote:
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 2:22 PM
Is there anyway we can do right now?
If you cannot get the membership to change the board, and if you feel the board is doing things unlawfully, you can submit complaints and follow the California statute's and your Declaration's requirements for same. If you have complaints, please start another thread and ask about them. Plenty here have experience with how to resolve disputes with a HOA Board's conduct in California.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
As far as I know California allows proxies. Do your CC&Rs forbid them? If proxies are allowed, why is it so hard to get enough people to complete them and return them to whoever is in charge for collecting them, and achieve quorum? If people don't return them without prodding, then the board should go door to door until they collect enough proxies (once we get this covid-19 business under control).

I'd also suggest an education campaign that informs homeowners why apathy is not in their best interests. This should be an ongoing thing.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
The quorum issue is not HOA specific or California specific, it is corporation code followed throughout the United States. For the election of directors, there is absolutely no reason to have quorum, it is there only to keep incumbents in place, whether in a HOA or a corporation.

The only solution is to amend you Bylaws and Election Rules to eliminate quorum for the election of directors. The website Augie references recommended the elimination of quorum for that purpose as well as eliminating proxies.

The argument that HOA's are apathetic is BS. If a majority of members is the standard for quorum, if you compare any state election down to local elections, outside of voting for president, none would ever reach the level of a majority of registered voters.

In larger associations, over 200, generally the only way to get on the board is get appointed, meaning you don't need to be qualified, just someones best friend.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
IN our HOA quorum is specified in the bylaws at 25%. But we never have trouble reaching it in our HOA of 200+ units.

In addition, in CA owners may vote by mail. So ballots are sent out to every owner. It's easy to vote, and no ne ha ss to collect proxies. so, get the list of all Owners' addresses and write a letter with other owners that urges owners to submit their ballots.
TravisC1 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
we have 2000 homes so we have to reach 500 votes....every year only 200+ received by HOA
TravisC1 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:
If Annual Meetings are scheduled but continually fail to reach quorum, I think that the current Board continues to serve. If somebody resigns from the Board during this period, the Board can usually appoint a new Board Member. In this way, it would seem to me that the current Board could serve years on end without being re-elected and could appoint and not have to elect new Board Members. It's not fair, to be sure, but seemingly legal.

what we could do?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 04/15/2020 3:21 PM
The argument that HOA's are apathetic is BS. If a majority of members is the standard for quorum, if you compare any state election down to local elections, outside of voting for president, none would ever reach the level of a majority of registered voters.
Open seats in municipal, state and federal elections nearly always have candidates running for them. Open HOA board seats often have no one willing to run for them or be appointed to them. The apathy is what it is. I disagree with all you wrote.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 4:48 PM
If Annual Meetings are scheduled but continually fail to reach quorum, I think that the current Board continues to serve. If somebody resigns from the Board during this period, the Board can usually appoint a new Board Member. In this way, it would seem to me that the current Board could serve years on end without being re-elected and could appoint and not have to elect new Board Members. It's not fair, to be sure, but seemingly legal.

what we could do?

Rather then bytch, get out and gather Proxies and control the voting.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/15/2020 5:04 PM
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 4:48 PM
If Annual Meetings are scheduled but continually fail to reach quorum, I think that the current Board continues to serve. If somebody resigns from the Board during this period, the Board can usually appoint a new Board Member. In this way, it would seem to me that the current Board could serve years on end without being re-elected and could appoint and not have to elect new Board Members. It's not fair, to be sure, but seemingly legal.

what we could do?


Rather then bytch, get out and gather Proxies and control the voting.

There is NO standard proxy form. Associations ARE not required to provide proxies even if they are allowed per the CCrRs/Bylaws. There is no guarantee that an association legal counsel will accept them.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/15/2020 5:01 PM
Posted By MarkW18 on 04/15/2020 3:21 PM
The argument that HOA's are apathetic is BS. If a majority of members is the standard for quorum, if you compare any state election down to local elections, outside of voting for president, none would ever reach the level of a majority of registered voters.
Open seats in municipal, state and federal elections nearly always have candidates running for them. Open HOA board seats often have no one willing to run for them or be appointed to them. The apathy is what it is. I disagree with all you wrote.

The apathy is not that they don't show up to volunteer, the apathy is that they don't show up to vote.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/15/2020 5:01 PM
Posted By MarkW18 on 04/15/2020 3:21 PM
The argument that HOA's are apathetic is BS. If a majority of members is the standard for quorum, if you compare any state election down to local elections, outside of voting for president, none would ever reach the level of a majority of registered voters.
Open seats in municipal, state and federal elections nearly always have candidates running for them. Open HOA board seats often have no one willing to run for them or be appointed to them. The apathy is what it is. I disagree with all you wrote.

Instead of disagreeing with what I say, why not provide a solution to the poster's dilemma.

BTW, a long winded draft letter won't cut it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Travis, as noted above, you need to get together with some other owners and go door to door and/or send short letters to every owner urging them to vote. Owners do have it in their hands to kick out a stale or abusive board, but it takes work & JOINT action.

Actually, eff. 1/20/20, in CA you can have a list of all Owners, which includes emails addys unless the owner has opted out. Compose a lit letter with other owners including at least one good writer and urge owners to vote and state why in a professional, proactive, positive way.

Are there usually candidates for the board????? How many on your board?
TravisC1 (California)
Posts: 4
Posted:

Thank you

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Of course if you want to solve this permanently, you can try:

* Amending your bylaws (ours require only 20% for quorum). This may be more work in the long run, though...

* Using multi-year proxies if allowed by state law (we can have 5-year proxies in my state).

* Looking into the possibility of electronic proxies/voting since they're less work and may get a better response rate (I'm not sure what the law says about them, but in this Age of Coronavirus a lot of things are going online).

In my experience, there is nothing like a hot button issue or contested election to get homeowners' attention. You don't want to manufacture a crisis, but one presents itself, use it.
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
Hi,

Might your HOA allow online voting? If so, this may encourage homeowners to participate. The HOA may need to do more advertising before election time as well to ensure everyone has the information they need to participate.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarshallT on 04/16/2020 6:05 AM
Hi,

Might your HOA allow online voting? If so, this may encourage homeowners to participate. The HOA may need to do more advertising before election time as well to ensure everyone has the information they need to participate.

Online voting not allowed.

Why would an incumbent want a person to vote knowing you won't make quorum?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 04/15/2020 5:59 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/15/2020 5:04 PM
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 4:48 PM
If Annual Meetings are scheduled but continually fail to reach quorum, I think that the current Board continues to serve. If somebody resigns from the Board during this period, the Board can usually appoint a new Board Member. In this way, it would seem to me that the current Board could serve years on end without being re-elected and could appoint and not have to elect new Board Members. It's not fair, to be sure, but seemingly legal.

what we could do?


Rather then bytch, get out and gather Proxies and control the voting.


There is NO standard proxy form. Associations ARE not required to provide proxies even if they are allowed per the CCrRs/Bylaws. There is no guarantee that an association legal counsel will accept them.

In the one SC HOA where we used Proxies to change the BOD around, we had a lawyer draw up the Proxy. The Pres of the BOD tried to say our Proxy was illegal but one of our allies on the BOD requested a legal opinion by the BOD lawyer. The BOD lawyer said what and how we did it was correct.

It was not easy. We had to go door to door. We handed out an informational brochure. We set up informational table at the pool. There was a core group of 10 and it grew as time went on. It took us two election cycles to drive 4 of 7 BOD members out of office, including the President.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Where I lived, we re-wrote the Bylaws, eliminated proxies, eliminated quorum and had elections where ballots actually got counted for the pat ten years.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
JohnC adds more, Travis: "We had to go door to door. We handed out an informational brochure. We set up informational table at the pool. There was a core group of 10 and it grew as time went on. It took us two election cycles to drive 4 of 7 BOD members out of office, including the President."

HOA members who want change must be willing to work hard and take joint action with other owners.

In CA, too, campaigners may use the common areas to promote their candidates or ideas.

Also should add that MarkW is right online voting is not permitted and he might have added: in Calif. It's r sure that bylaw changes can help, but that takes too much time. Voting is the cheapest way to make change. But, campaigning by email, letter, in person, ec. takes work.
MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414
Posted:
A simple solution would be to try online proxy voting. Or even E-voting https://www.condocontrolcentral.com/feature/proxy-voting/
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TravisC1 on 04/15/2020 2:22 PM
Hello Everyone,

I am a homeowner live in a big community in south California, every year we will have the election for board members, we try our best to notify all of our neighbor go to vote, but unforgettably. we only reach our 25% quorum in 2016. So every year the current incumbent board member will stay in board, my question is If quorum is not met at the upcoming Annual Election (25% of voting power), the Board will reconvene the meeting to another date in the near future (not less than 5 days and no more than 30 days)). If quorum is not met at the Reconvened Annual Meeting, the current Board will remain until the 2021 Annual Election. But why cannot HOA open to current vote they received and counting the votes to select the board director for reference? 25% quorum is California law or HOA rules? If every year we cannot reach the quorum and no current board resign ,they will stay in the board forever? Is there anyway we can do right now?

Thank you

Yes, send proxies to neighbors for signature through DocuSign. That's the easiest way to gather proxies.

Otherwise, go door-to-door begging for people to give proxies.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarshallT on 04/16/2020 10:12 AM
A simple solution would be to try online proxy voting. Or even E-voting https://www.condocontrolcentral.com/feature/proxy-voting/

Was wondering what part of no online voting allowed in California wasn't understood.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
You could propose a bylaws change to require a lower quorum, 25% seems very high. We've never had more than 10% participation in voting which I suspect is normal. Of course, if you need a quorum for the bylaws change it would require a campaign to get people to vote. I would recommend volunteers calling or going door-to-door. Until you lower the quorum, I don't see how anything will change.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We never have trouble reaching the 25% quorum requirement and it's all due to mail-in voting -- no physical presence required at the annual meeting.

Bu, whether urging owners to fill out their ballot ts & submit them via mail or dropping off at the office, or proxies, which are never used anymore in our HOA even though our ancient bylaws accept them, campaign activity is necessary.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
For the election of directors, what's the purpose of quorum?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Until we finally rewrite our Bylaws, MarkW, we're stuck with a quorum requirement. So, agin, in Travis' case, it takes too long to amend bylaws even IF the board in his HOA were willing.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
How things operate in a high rise with onsite managers and an older population is considerably different than larger single family detached homes. If Travis's community and others like their want to see ballots counted they need to amend or re-write their docs. None better than the present.

It takes a total of six months from start to finish and you don't need Board approval. I've seen it done. Even your favorite legal website recommends the elimination of both quorum and proxies and it was their recommend that was taken 10 years ago. My name is even on twice on their website for that.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Travis has already said achieving quorum can't be done in his HOA. So, how, MarkW, will he get the usual 51% of Owners approve rewriting his bylaws? It would take a lot more campaigning, door knocking, email writing, etc., than replacing some directors at the annual meeting.

I totally agree we need no proxies, quorum for directors' election, cumulative voting, etc. in our HOA's bylaws.

This has zero to do with his HOA's configuration being a lot different than ours. So, why bring it up? Oh, yeah, the nasty pills in your (un)Happy Hour adult beverages.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/16/2020 5:00 PM
Travis has already said achieving quorum can't be done in his HOA. So, how, MarkW, will he get the usual 51% of Owners approve rewriting his bylaws? It would take a lot more campaigning, door knocking, email writing, etc., than replacing some directors at the annual meeting.

I totally agree we need no proxies, quorum for directors' election, cumulative voting, etc. in our HOA's bylaws.

This has zero to do with his HOA's configuration being a lot different than ours. So, why bring it up? Oh, yeah, the nasty pills in your (un)Happy Hour adult beverages.


You have to be, by far, one of the most negative people I have ever met. I did it twice, one for 317 homes and one for 1600 homes. I also ran for political office and worked for the largest election division in the country.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Wow, Mark, that is great!

Thanks for sharing your many success stories.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 04/16/2020 5:54 PM
Wow, Mark, that is great!

Thanks for sharing your many success stories.

Instead of criticizing from the cheap seats, why not offer one of your many expert solutions.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Nope.

I far prefer pointing out your obvious issues, and consistent nastiness.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Travis,

It can be done, just don't look to Kerry or George for solutions.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 04/16/2020 5:00 PM
Travis has already said achieving quorum can't be done in his HOA. So, how, MarkW, will he get the usual 51% of Owners approve rewriting his bylaws? It would take a lot more campaigning, door knocking, email writing, etc., than replacing some directors at the annual meeting.
Thank you for keeping this thread logical and as positive as it can be.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
My reply that is positive was that Owners must band together and take joint action to get rid of a stale or abusive board. We have now done this twice in our HOA--in '07 and in Oct. 19 via our annual elections.

Throw the bums out! With owners' votes is real and it's cheap but it's labor intensive and time consuming. Take look again at JohnC's example way above.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Please be careful, Travis.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Do not share any personal identifying information, Travis.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/17/2020 7:01 AM
Do not share any personal identifying information, Travis.

???????????????????
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 04/17/2020 7:01 AM
Do not share any personal identifying information, Travis.

Don't worry about answering, I'll take it up with the owners of the site.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
In our condominium association. If a quorum is not met at the annual meeting, then at the next regularly scheduled hoa meeting whoever shows up, constitutes a quorum.

The result is, since quorum almost never is met at the first meeting, the next months meetings is where the election actually takes place. Often there are barely enough board members to fill all the seats so it's kinda elected by acclimation.

I guess this provision,, stating that whoever shows up to the reconvened annual election meeting will constitute a quorum, is specific to condominiums? does anyone else have this provision in their documents?
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MichaelB49 on 08/18/2020 4:14 PM
Will appreciate Florida experience help on thread: “signs on homeowner property”

Please contain comments regarding that issue to that other thread. This one is about voting, not signs.

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