Owner offers to provide small gym to HOA: reasonable response?

Started by PaulJ6 • 66 replies • 2669 views

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PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

In my HOA, an owner wrote the whole HOA, offering to buy a treadmill and some other fitness equipment and put in a common area for residents' use.

How would a HOA board typically respond? I assume that it would check its insurance coverage and want to ensure that it did not take on liability, but otherwise how would a board view this kind of offer?

(In my HOA, the property manager immediately responded, saying that a HOA gym would be irresponsible due to the current coronavirus lockdown.)

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

A big NO. My nose smells this person thinks it's going to be a tax-deduction for them as well. My bet they can't really produce a recently dated receipt... Plus during these times? Nope.

Former HOA President

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Thanks, MelissaP1. I don't think that it would be tax-deductible. What if the offer were made during a normal (non-pandemic) time?

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

If it were in another time, I would say sure, why not. First do a survey of owners, prior to a Board making a decision. Have the insurance company access the risk and adjust your policy accordingly. Add the equipment to the reserve study.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

This would be adding a capital asset to the HOA. I believe such an addition requires a vote of the members to amend the Declaration thusly. Such a vote can take a few months or more to arrange. While coronavirus is around, use of such equipment should be prohibited.

I do not know how most HOA boards would respond.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

We had an offer for an owner to build a gazebo and picnic table overlooking our retention pond. We turned it down to mainly having to maintain such but also a liability issue. We thanked.

No need to overthink things like this. The answer is simple.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Thanks, everyone.

What if there is a survey of owners, as per Mark's post, and a majority of owners are in favor?

Would that change a HOA board's view, if it prefers to say no?

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

First, there is no need to amend anything, as no association monies would be expended meeting a 5% threshold for capital improvements.

Second, the Board doesn't need to go to the owners for approval, I strongly believe that is the right path.

Third, if the owner want the equipment and the Board says no, the only recourse is replacing a Board.

Fourth, as I mentioned, contact your insurance agent for liability issues and updating the association's policy.

Fifth, refusing a free gazebo because you would have to maintain it, well, that's just a piss poor excuse.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/28/2020 10:52 AM
What if there is a survey of owners, as per Mark's post, and a majority of owners are in favor? Would that change a HOA board's view, if it prefers to say no?

Suppose a survey showed the majority of owners are in favor of adding a capital asset, and the Board does so, without amending. To me this would arguably be the tyranny of the majority.

Boards violate covenants all the time. So sure, a survey could sway a board to unlawfully add a capital asset and undertake additional liability without the required formal vote of members.

I am aware of no law in New York concerning a "5% threshold for capital improvements." Even if there were, a HOA accepting responsibility for such equipment means the HOA has to maintain it. That adds to the budget, without authority from the Declaration.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Now, I am done with this BS.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Thanks again, everyone. The property manager emailed the HOA and said that it was “irresponsible” to have an owner provide a treadmill.

So I guess this is settled.

MarkW18, your input is certainly welcome; I like your posts.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Just curious: what is the current use of the common area?

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 03/28/2020 12:54 PM
Just curious: what is the current use of the common area?

There isn’t much: an empty storage room, a back yard and a few other very small rooms that are unused.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 03/28/2020 12:50 PM
Thanks again, everyone. The property manager emailed the HOA and said that it was “irresponsible” to have an owner provide a treadmill.

So I guess this is settled.

MarkW18, your input is certainly welcome; I like your posts.

I'd dealt with these situations on a number of occasions. There were never a time when when the CCRs ever had to be amended. If a special assessment had to be voted on, it was done and within that vote were instruction on how the new asset was to be allocated and maintained in the future.

You should have attorney friends that deal with HOA's, ask them the requirement of going through the expensive process of amending one's CCRs to add something that was donated.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

You definitely don’t want to be encouraging owners to use indoor common areas during a pandemic.

Beyond that, equipment for community use should be commercial equipment intended for frequent use, not retail stuff intended for private use. I doubt this owner is offering to donate that!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Good point Barbara. I'd like to know what benefit this owner is to receive by donating this equipment? In a HOA it is best that if a majority of the HOA wants a treadmill, then they raise the money in their budget to purchase the item. NOT accept it as a donation. They could buy it from that person if they choose but would not accept it donation wise.

Plus you do have to consider the equipment warranty. It may not cover "Public" use. I know much playground equipment is the same way. No more than like 6 kids can use it or the warranty is rendered useless. Plus has to be in a private backyard. Commercial equipment has different standards/warranty.

I still say this person thinks this donation could be a tax deduction to them. We know it is NOT one. I am always suspicious of such donations that someone believes they will benefit tax wise because do not understand non-profit means in a HOA.

Former HOA President

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

MelissaP1, the owner’s email to the HOA stated that having a small fitness area would be an amenity that would help make homes in the HOA more marketable (even slightly). The owner’s concern is maintaining property values. Some other people in the HOA emailed the whole HOA to state that there is no tax deduction.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I got it. Sounds like his idea is to add a treadmill. Like I posted before, it's a HOA budget thing NOT an individual. The HOA has to buy the equipment. Which could be from this individual if they choose. However, they can also choose to all band together and buy a commercial unit. The difference being that it's an actual HOA purchase.

Again a treadmill as NOTHING to Home value. How you going to divide the cost of a $300 treadmill to the value of your home when it sells? Otherwise it's just an additional ATTRACTION to your HOA that creates interest in buying.

Former HOA President

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/29/2020 7:16 AM
I got it. Sounds like his idea is to add a treadmill. Like I posted before, it's a HOA budget thing NOT an individual. The HOA has to buy the equipment. Which could be from this individual if they choose. However, they can also choose to all band together and buy a commercial unit. The difference being that it's an actual HOA purchase.

Again a treadmill as NOTHING to Home value. How you going to divide the cost of a $300 treadmill to the value of your home when it sells? Otherwise it's just an additional ATTRACTION to your HOA that creates interest in buying.

The owner would be giving the treadmill to the HOA at no cost.

The owner’s email stated that HOA amenities can help marketability of homes generally and that this HOA has few amenities and it’s a bad market for sellers, so having even a small amenity like this could help marketability. I don’t know if that’s true but that’s what the owner said.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I got it dude. It's just NOT how a HOA budget works. This donation does the HOA no good in this form. The right form to purchase or to have a treadmill is for the HOA to purchase it. Now this person can sell it to you all at any price they want. They may sell it for $1 or cost of Delivery. Either way, the HOA budget should pay it out of their budget.

You have to think differently with a HOA budget.

Former HOA President

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 03/29/2020 8:07 AM
I got it dude. It's just NOT how a HOA budget works. This donation does the HOA no good in this form. The right form to purchase or to have a treadmill is for the HOA to purchase it. Now this person can sell it to you all at any price they want. They may sell it for $1 or cost of Delivery. Either way, the HOA budget should pay it out of their budget.

You have to think differently with a HOA budget.

Thanks. I sincerely don’t understand your opposition, although I am grateful for your feedback.

It’s a free treadmill for residents of a small HOA to use. As long as it doesn’t increase the HOA’s insurance premium, I don’t see the harm. If the HOA breaks, it can be thrown away. Perhaps the owner should pre-pay the costs of disposing of it.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am NOT opposing it IF your HOA would PAY FOR IT! That is my point!!! Your HOA pays the person a $1 out it's budget then all is okay. A donation is NOT good for the HOA due to many different possible tax reasons or liabilities. This person can just decide to move and take it with them. Saying it was a donation based on them getting it back etc...

This is simple. Just have the HOA buy it from the owner for a $1 and problem solved.

Example: We had a lawncare person who lived in our HOA. I fired him. He took the flagpole from our front entrance and put it in his backyard. He said he had purchased that pole for the community and he owned it. So we had to go purchase a new flagpole and install a light (Per flying rules) out of our HOA money. Even though he quote "donated" that pole and bought it himself for the HOA to use, he still had the right to take it.

Former HOA President

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Got it. Thanks again for your feedback.

KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239

Posted:

Paul,

Check w/ your insurance agent - both for the injury liability as well as the fact that your building/room will be accessed more regularly than before. Consider the offer (and the maintenance) and make the best decision for YOUR community given its size and culture of respecting property.

Most experience HOA directors, like populate this forum, don't wish to add even a tiny amount of maintenance and potential liability on their HOAs, and that's fine as well.

Good Luck.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Kelly sees it the way I do. We don't accept donations though we have a fully equipped gym. there's space fore a few other items, but "donations" aren''t part of our contract with our equipment maintenance company and He probably wouldn't accept home equipment as a part of his contract.

A treadmill will need regular servicing and preventative maintenance. In addition, perhaps this storage room doesn't even have AC or other ventilation, and might not have enough exits for fire safety requirements.

I have a feeling that when we can reopen our gym, we'll get a lot of "donations." Folks are buying things for exercise to use in their condos, but there's limited space...

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Paul,

I have to assume, based on your post, the building is not under contract with a equipment company providing sales and maintenance.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I assume the same as MarkW so also assume the HOA'd have to hire someone to maintain this "gift."

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

HOA has no amenities and there is nobody to maintain the treadmill. I would expect the HOA to simply throw it away if it breaks.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

I don't see an issue. How many HOA's employ lifeguards at their pools.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Others have pointed out the need to consult with the insurance agent. I added the fire marshall may need to determine if a "storage room" has the ventilation and exits to meet code in which to place the treadmill.

If the HOA accepts this gift, they are responsible for keeping it safe. It's mechanical with moving parts. It'll need regular preventative maintenance servicing by someone. If it isn't serviced regularly, It could cause injury to a user. It's not rare for a poorly-maintained treadmill, for example, to suddenly stop while someone is jogging on it.

If Paul's HOA has a building engineer, that person might be able to maintain it. If not and there is no maintenance plan, the Board and HOA are at risk. The board has not practiced its duty of care. The Board would be foolish to accept the donation.

(The pool comparison does not apply as it doesn't take into account the mechanical aspect of a treadmill.)

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Thanks, everyone.

The property manager emailed the whole HOA, saying that the offer to provide a treadmill was "unacceptable".

I'm moving, but this just rubs me the wrong way:

* The building has zero amenities.
* Since the board wouldn't add any amenities, an owner offered to give the HOA one for free.
* The board wouldn't even accept that, even though there was significant support--a lot of owners emailed the HOA email list to say that they wanted it.

Seems like the board should have taken advantage of an offer for a free amenity that people want.

But I'm not on the board.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Look, Paul, it's abundantly clear that anything your current board does is wrong in your eyes. But you failed to answer my questions or comment about my reservations and they are the kind a board should ask. And there are even more such questions. That some owners want this is not the point. That there currently are no recreational amenities is not the point.

Now, the Board, imo, should have given reasons for not accepting this donations in a brief communication with owners.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 04/01/2020 2:16 PM
Look, Paul, it's abundantly clear that anything your current board does is wrong in your eyes. But you failed to answer my questions or comment about my reservations and they are the kind a board should ask. And there are even more such questions. That some owners want this is not the point. That there currently are no recreational amenities is not the point.

Now, the Board, imo, should have given reasons for not accepting this donations in a brief communication with owners.

"failed"?

I looked through your posts again and I answered the one direct question.

For other responses, now that I know I need to provide them:

* There is an exit right next to the empty room where the treadmill would be. There would just be a treadmill for one person, and people are already able to use the storage room where the treadmill would be, and the other rooms on the floor. So I don't see this as a fire safety issue.

* The HOA wouldn't have to hire anyone to maintain the treadmill. When it breaks, it can just be thrown out.

* Yes, the HOA would need to add the treadmill to its policy.

It IS the point that numerous owners--at least 1/3 of the building--expressed support for getting a treadmill. It IS the point that there are no other amenities. This is a board that is completely unresponsive to what owners want, and a board that does not take owners' interests into account, since it's run by a property manager.

Boards shouldn't be just automatically doing what owners want, but boards have a legal duty to run HOAs in the best interests of owners. This board's actions create concerns that it is not doing that.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

My 1 cent:
- item is free
- include item under liability coverage
- provide a small maintenance allowance if there is money
- if no money provide ability to haul it out and dispose
- if no money for haul and dispose then refuse item
- assign item to some committee to monitor and report to Board at some interval
- at end of life, when it hard breaks, assuming money approved to dispose ... dispose ...

Don’t forget to thank the folks who donated.

MarshallT (New York)
Posts: 414

Posted:

While that sounds like a kind offer, your PM made the right call.

It is too risky to set up shared gym equipment right now. Most if not all HOAs have shut down gyms and other shared facilities.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarshallT on 04/02/2020 7:13 AM
While that sounds like a kind offer, your PM made the right call.

It is too risky to set up shared gym equipment right now. Most if not all HOAs have shut down gyms and other shared facilities.

The offer is to give the equipment once the pandemic is over and gyms can reopen. The offer was also for "single-use only" equipment meaning that only one person at a time can use it.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I agree with the others who say this isn't a good idea, although the potential donor meant well. The decision might not make much sense to you, but HOAs have to be run as a business, thinking of things like risk, liability, etc. You have bad blood with this board and property manager, and to be honest, I think a lot of that history has influenced your opinion regarding this issue. But since you're moving out, why worry about something that's not your issue anyway. Let the current board make its decision and you move on to wherever you're moving to.

As I recall, you said you were moving to another HOA because you had another conversation on this website where you asked about not being involved in ANY HOA matters. Odd that you say you despise HOAs, but are jumping right back into the slop. Let's hope you learned something from this experience - as long as you live in a HOA, sooner or later the things they do WILL affect you, some things more than others. If you can't figure out a way how to work with your new neighbors, I hope someone in your household will take the lead and have better luck.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/02/2020 8:13 AM
Odd that you say you despise HOAs, but are jumping right back into the slop.

By way of home ownership, a condominium is often all a person can afford. Leave him alone.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/02/2020 8:13 AM
I agree with the others who say this isn't a good idea, although the potential donor meant well. The decision might not make much sense to you, but HOAs have to be run as a business, thinking of things like risk, liability, etc. You have bad blood with this board and property manager, and to be honest, I think a lot of that history has influenced your opinion regarding this issue. But since you're moving out, why worry about something that's not your issue anyway. Let the current board make its decision and you move on to wherever you're moving to.

As I recall, you said you were moving to another HOA because you had another conversation on this website where you asked about not being involved in ANY HOA matters. Odd that you say you despise HOAs, but are jumping right back into the slop. Let's hope you learned something from this experience - as long as you live in a HOA, sooner or later the things they do WILL affect you, some things more than others. If you can't figure out a way how to work with your new neighbors, I hope someone in your household will take the lead and have better luck.

(Thanks, AugustinD.)

SheilaH, if you lived in the center of the downtown of a large Northeastern city, unless you're worth tens of millions of dollars (perhaps you are; I'm not), you'd make the same choice: single-family homes there are at least $10MM+ or more, and only people such as Mike Bloomberg live in them. There's no choice for most people. And before blaming me for not knowing "how to work with...neighbors", you may wish to look at the board that I've dealt with. As I've posted in another thread, I own a property managed by another HOA and the president and board there are excellent.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Look you two, Paul is the one who's gone on and on about despising HOAs and he's the one who went off and sued his community. Yes, you won, and maybe they deserved to be sued, but remember, we've only heard YOUR side. The court documents may have all the legal mumbo jumbo, but there's always a story behind the lawsuit and nuances.
I see it all the time on this board - people will talk about something and of course they'll tell you what they want you to know. Nothing wrong with that, but in all things, there's your side, my side and the truth. Sometimes finding the truth is elusive and when that happens, the best you may be able to do is put the experience into the "shit happens" box and move on.

By the way, I'm a working stiff and the people in my community come from all walks of life. We're not rich, but having lots of money or none whatsoever has nothing to do with class or getting along with others. It's about character and at least trying to treat people the way you'd like to be treated.

Life is evolution and sometimes you need to sit down, shut up and try looking at the situation from more than one perspective. Could it be that you and the board wound up in court because both sides were more interested in showing whose dingdong was bigger? Maybe you kept your mouth shut for too long before speaking up? Did you ever think about trying to discuss your concerns with a neighbor who was on good terms with you and the board and perhaps he or she could have helped both sides come to some sort of agreement? You might not be willing to admit it but maybe you are one of those homeowners who feel everything should be done YOUR way and if it's not, well those folks are stupid.

You chose to move in a HOA last time and are heading into another. I guess you looked around and saw nothing else was available, but you can talk to some of your soon to be new neighbors to get a feel for the community and feel your way through. At least start by assuming they want the same things as you - a clean, safe, attractive community. How all of you get there is yet to be seen.

With that, I'm done with this conversation - y'all have a nice day and stay safe!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Boy, aren't we getting testy in our old age.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Nicely and accurately said, Shelia.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/02/2020 2:38 PM
Look you two

Your comment to PaulJ6 was rude and unnecessary. You know it. I know it. For you to try to cover it up reflects poorly on your character.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 04/02/2020 2:38 PM
Look you two, Paul is the one who's gone on and on about despising HOAs and he's the one who went off and sued his community. Yes, you won, and maybe they deserved to be sued, but remember, we've only heard YOUR side. The court documents may have all the legal mumbo jumbo, but there's always a story behind the lawsuit and nuances.
I see it all the time on this board - people will talk about something and of course they'll tell you what they want you to know. Nothing wrong with that, but in all things, there's your side, my side and the truth. Sometimes finding the truth is elusive and when that happens, the best you may be able to do is put the experience into the "shit happens" box and move on.

By the way, I'm a working stiff and the people in my community come from all walks of life. We're not rich, but having lots of money or none whatsoever has nothing to do with class or getting along with others. It's about character and at least trying to treat people the way you'd like to be treated.

Life is evolution and sometimes you need to sit down, shut up and try looking at the situation from more than one perspective. Could it be that you and the board wound up in court because both sides were more interested in showing whose dingdong was bigger? Maybe you kept your mouth shut for too long before speaking up? Did you ever think about trying to discuss your concerns with a neighbor who was on good terms with you and the board and perhaps he or she could have helped both sides come to some sort of agreement? You might not be willing to admit it but maybe you are one of those homeowners who feel everything should be done YOUR way and if it's not, well those folks are stupid.

You chose to move in a HOA last time and are heading into another. I guess you looked around and saw nothing else was available, but you can talk to some of your soon to be new neighbors to get a feel for the community and feel your way through. At least start by assuming they want the same things as you - a clean, safe, attractive community. How all of you get there is yet to be seen.

With that, I'm done with this conversation - y'all have a nice day and stay safe!

SheilaH, I prevailed in the lawsuit because I was right and because the HOA and its counsel did illegal things. Otherwise, why would they have lost?

I am moving into one most attractive and desirable buildings in the area. It's a very nice place. But as I posted, a single-family house (a townhouse) is at least $10,000,000. Do you want to pay that? I don't (and can't). Thus the only choice in my area for the non-Mike Bloombergs of the world is a multifamily building.

Also, using profane language about body parts is just poor, in my view.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 04/02/2020 3:43 PM

And to respond about "Did you ever think about...":

The HOA board and its lawyer broke Federal law in threatening me.

They refused to even discuss the situation, refused to even consider my numerous offers to settle for far less than I ended up receiving, and continued to threaten me. I tried repeatedly and repeatedly offered to have meetings, mediation, etc. All of my attempts were rejected. And the HOA and its lawyer kept threatening (illegally) to foreclose on my home. Would you like to be treated like that, when the HOA and its lawyer broke numerous laws and acted illegally?

The only response was a lawsuit. There was no other choice.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Right.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

And SheilaH, for reference, the facts of my own situation:

1. The HOA never counterclaimed at all. The HOA never even made any court filings. It settled. The HOA's lawyer settled on the same day (I think) on which notice of the lawsuit was received.

If the HOA and its lawyer were in the right and I were in the wrong, wouldn't the HOA and its lawyer have fought back and counterclaimed, and not settled?

2. Here's what the HOA and its lawyer did to me, among other things:

A. Illegally fined me for things.

B. Waived the fines after the HOA realized that they were illegal, but then sent an announcement to the whole HOA, stating that I was a deadbeat.

C. After the HOA sent the announcement, it sent a second announcement to the whole HOA, stating that it had stated falsehoods about me and that I didn't actually owe anything. Well, too late--the neighbors were already talking about my being a deadbeat.

D. Broke a contract.

E. Violated Federal and state law by repeatedly threatening to foreclose on my home, which was illegal, and which was a baseless threat.

G. Broke another contract.

Would you like that?

After all of this, they paid a nice settlement amount to me.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

I concur with mark's responses.

Its unbelievable that hoa's can't get out of their own way and figure out how to accept the gym (especially after a survey of owners said yes they want it)

I have a friend who moved in an upscale high rise. The friend is a peloton fanatic. The downsizing from the former house to the highrise living left her with no place for the peleton.

she approached the board and asked if she could donate the peleton to the buildings gym. They jumped all over it. She signed a gift release and the peleton is now in the gym. She uses it every morning.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025

Posted:

I want to clarify my previous post. My friend first asked the board if she could set up the peloton in the existing gym . She has signed a 2 year lease. The board did reject that. But once she offered to give the bike to the building, they were more than happy to accept.

She told me what happened as she was explaining that "you(me) were first on the list to receive the peleton" uggg.. Of course , in this case I wish the board would have rejected the gift..lol. just kidding.. But I do want a peloton!.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LaskaS on 04/03/2020 9:05 AM
I concur with mark's responses.

Its unbelievable that hoa's can't get out of their own way and figure out how to accept the gym (especially after a survey of owners said yes they want it)

I have a friend who moved in an upscale high rise. The friend is a peloton fanatic. The downsizing from the former house to the highrise living left her with no place for the peleton.

she approached the board and asked if she could donate the peleton to the buildings gym. They jumped all over it. She signed a gift release and the peleton is now in the gym. She uses it every morning.

PLEASE, don't concur with any of my responses!

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