Can HOA for small Condo enforce fine for not attending a board meeting?

Started by ChristopherP3 • 29 replies • 1242 views

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ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Hello people,

I'm here to seek a little help. This month, I got $100 fine added on my monthly HOA statement for not showing at HOA board meeting. And when I tried to appeal,they showed me the schedule of fines and fee and apparently, there's a line for Non-attendance at HOA meeting without submitting a proxy for $100 and they told me it.
But I believe it's still unreasonable because
one, they didn't mention anything about the penalty when they put the notice in the elevator.
Two, i've been living in this condo since 2017 and they hadn't had a board meeting until now. So this was the first board meeting since I moved in so I had no previous experience of dealing with that.
Three, I've never heard of any communities that mandate board meeting.

Can someone please advise if they can legally impose a fine and I'm obligated to pay?

Thank you for reading

DeidreB (Virginia)
Posts: 113

Posted:

I do not know but am amazed by this (in a bad way).

Get out Your By Laws, your Declaration of CC&R's, and any HOA published Rules and regulations and the fine schedule you mentioned.

Find the California Property Owner Association law on line that pertains to your community (Davis Stirling maybe?).

Do an audit of their powers to do this.

What does Davis Stirling (or the applicable state law) say?

Your By Laws?

Declaration?

If the power to fine for non-attendance is not in any of the above you are likely on to something and may want to call a lawyer.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Holy mackerel. I am with Deidre, except I do not think you should contact an attorney just yet. Can you quote exactly the part of the Declaration that speaks to any requirement for non-director members attending an annual meeting of the membership?

Is this a condominium or a community of stand-alone homes that do not share walls?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Christopher,

How many units are there in this condominium?

Are you on the board of this condominium?

Was this a board meeting or a meeting of the membership?

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Hello,

It does say in the schedule of fees & Fines and it's attached.

Thanks!

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

sorry, the attachment is too big but it says Non-attendance at HOA meeting without submitting a proxy - $100

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Hello,

There's less than 20 units.

No I"m not on the the board.

it was a HOA meeting and they had the notice in the elevator. But in that notice, they fail to mention about the penalty whatsoever.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherP3 on 03/07/2020 9:53 AM
It does say in the schedule of fees & Fines and it's attached.

Is this schedule of fees a part of the Condominium Declaration?

How about emailing me what you have at [email protected]?

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

I sent you the screenshot. but how do I check if it's a part of the condominium declaration?

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

No, they can't legally fine you for either not attending a Board meeting or attending a annual meeting. The rule has to be "fair and reasonable" and this is pure BS.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkW18 on 03/07/2020 10:34 AM
No, they can't legally fine you for either not attending a Board meeting or attending a annual meeting. The rule has to be "fair and reasonable" and this is pure BS.

I agree.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

ChristopherP3 emailed me the Declaration, Bylaws, Rules and Regs, schedule of fines and more. The condo dates to the late 1980s. As people here predicted, the Declaration, Bylaws and Rules and Regs say nothing about "non-attendance at HOA meeting without submitting a proxy" being prohibited. Only the schedule of fines lists this "violation," attaching a $100 fine to it.

ChristopherP3, when a member disagrees with a condominium association's fine, California law requires the association to conduct something called "internal dispute resolution" (IDR). Your condo's Declaration actually makes reference to dispute resolution and complying with California statutes on same. You should look over the following sites:
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Internal-Dispute-Resolution
https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Statutes/Civil-Code-5910#axzz2CgHrcBrn

I would first write a letter like the following, requesting IDR.

=============

Dear Condominium Board of Directors,

The Association recently fined my unit for "non-attendance at HOA meeting without submitting a proxy." Pursuant to California Civil Code sections 5910 and 5915 and Declaration Article 20, I request Internal Dispute Resolution to dispute this fine. This is why:

California Civil Code section 4350 states that a rule "is valid and enforceable only if," among other things, the rule is "within the authority of the board conferred by law or by the declaration, articles of incorporation or association, or bylaws of the association." Also sections 4350 and 5975 require that the rule be reasonable.

Nowhere in the Declaration, Articles, or Bylaws do I see a requirement to submit a proxy when an owner does not attend a HOA meeting in person. It appears to me that neither the condominium's Declaration, Articles, nor Bylaws, nor any California statute, confer upon the condominium board the authority to require submission of a proxy when an owner does not attend a HOA meeting. Nor does it seem to me that this rule is reasonable. Respectfully, the Board's creation of this rule appears to me to violate California Civil Code sections 4350 and 5975.

Pursuant to California Civil Code section 5910 and Declaration Article 20, please provide three dates and times when the Board can meet with me to discuss this and hopefully resolve this via Internal Dispute Resolution. I request your response by March 28, 2020.

Thank you,

[name]
[address]
[phone]
[email addie]
===============================

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

You've lived here since 2017 and never read your documents until now? However this ends, better sit down, get comfy and start reading. You may find something else you really need to be aware of.

As for this, this is the first time I've heard of people being fined for not attending and frankly, it smells like a money grab (what if you'd been sick or had some type of emergency)? I would try to request a formal appeal hearing and see what happens. If this is in your documents, you may have no choice but to pay it - or you can refuse and see if they pursue it further. For $100, I don't know if I'd go that far - this may be a good case for alternative dispute resolution if that's available in your commumity.

You might also talk to a few of your neighbors. If they agree this is absurd, perhaps they'd be willing to attend the next board meeting with you and say so. This could also be he beginning of a movement to delete that electron the documents (which will likely require homeowner approval).I

Equally ridiculous is the use of a proxy for $100 or whatever that is - do they want homeowner participation or not? A push to end that would also be in order.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Chris

With only 20 units it should be easy to mount opposition to this Rule and/or replace enough of the present BOD Members to change it.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Christopher

What Augustin failed to mention is that California require that HOA's follow due process, meaning that before an association can fine you they must call you before the Board giving proper notice. If they didn't, no fine can be applied.

In addition, each California association is required annually to send out their fine schedule with their Annual Budget Package. If they didn't send the schedule or the Annual Budget Package, they are in violation of California Civil Code and they can pretty much piss that fine away.

I wouldn't write that letter until you check the above out.

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Hi Mark,

Thx for the insight. And as far what they told me, they included the schedule of fees and fines. Which is my fault because I didn't attention to it.

But what I think is that they should've notified that there's going to be a penalty for not attending in the notice they put on the elevator.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Nothing in MarkW18's post changes the substance of the dispute. My advice to send the letter requesting IDR stands.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherP3 on 03/07/2020 5:00 PM
Hi Mark,

Thx for the insight. And as far what they told me, they included the schedule of fees and fines. Which is my fault because I didn't attention to it.

But what I think is that they should've notified that there's going to be a penalty for not attending in the notice they put on the elevator.

Did they send notice to attend a meeting with the Board prior to the fine showing up on you statement?

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

They post the notice in the elevator about the meeting but they failed to mention about the penalty.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Notice to what? The Board meeting, an annual meeting. Sorry, you can't fine someone for a meeting they can attend voluntarily.

If they are mentioning proxies, they must be speaking of a annual meeting. Sorry, it doesn't past the smell this.

Were you sent a notice, to your residence of a meeting with the board prior to a fine being implemented. If not, the fine can't stand.

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

It's an hoa meeting. I would assume annual HOA meeting but the weird thing is that they didn't have any in 2018 and in 2019. First one since I moved in.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherP3 on 03/07/2020 5:52 PM
It's an hoa meeting. I would assume annual HOA meeting but the weird thing is that they didn't have any in 2018 and in 2019. First one since I moved in.

Go to this website and ask your question. They help homeowners in HOA disputes. https://www.kushnercarlson.com/

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

I'm going to be realistic here.

Can they do it is not the final question.
How much are you willing to spend to fight it?

Do I think that they can make such a penalty? No.

Are you willing to spend the time and energy, perhaps money, to fight it? Only you can answer that.

The letter Augustine drafted is good.
I think it would have more of an impact if it was on a local attorney's letter head (cost: $300 to $500).
This may have the board check with their attorney.
However, if the Association attorney says they can do it and your attorney (or the law) says they can't, the issue will need to go to court.

So, How much are you willing to spend in time, energy and money to fight the good fight?

BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ChristopherP3 on 03/07/2020 5:52 PM
It's an hoa meeting. I would assume annual HOA meeting but the weird thing is that they didn't have any in 2018 and in 2019. First one since I moved in.

That still does not answer the question. There are two types of hoa meetings: board meetings which are meetings of the directors of the hoa, and membership meetings, usually held annually, which are meetings of all the members of the association. So which one are they fining you for non-attendance? Have you seen the minutes of the board meeting in which the fine was approved?

BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178

Posted:

Also, only directors (board members) get to voted at a board meeting. Why would a homeowner be required to attend, let alone supply a proxy?

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Sorry, I got confused HOA meeting with board meeting in my original post and wasn't sure how to edit it. But it's an annual HOA meeting

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Pay the fine and sue them in small claims court. The fine is crazy but if it’s in the HOA’s list of fines it may be legal.

I despise HOAs.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Chris

I say:

1. Pay the fine.

2. Do what Aug suggested about the letter. If they change the rule and reimburse you. End of issue,

3. If they do not do #2, do what Paul says about Small Claims Court.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

This is what is only the rules and fine schedule:

Owners have the right to request a hearing before the Board to appeal the fine within 10 days of written notice of a fine.

California doesn't work that way. The owner is to be given notice to call them to hearing and with in a period of time afterwards they can fine and give notice of the decision to impose a fine.

Their whole fining process doesn't pass mustard, but I am not surprised knowing the management company involved.

ChristopherP3 (California)
Posts: 10

Posted:

Thank you Mark,

I'll reach out to appeal. I'll let you guys know.

Thank you all!

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