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PaulM30 (B)
Posts: 41
Posted:
We have a 15 unit condo building, and I'm the president of the HOA. Our property management company coordinate activities that require a vendor, and will visit the building when required, but we do not have 'on site' management. An owner in our building recently dropped her front door and car keys through the gap in the elevator, and immediately called the management company emergency line (it was a sunday night). The management company explained that they couldn't do anything about it at that point, and would call out the elevator company in the morning. The owner contacted myself and another board member to say that this wasn't satisfactory and that she had no way of getting to work, and thought that someone in the building should have access to the elevator shaft. The next morning, the management company had not responded, so she called the elevator company, but upon hearing that the call out would cost in the region of $1k, she had 'a friend who is a contractor' stall the elevator, and I'm assuming she pried the basement elevator door open and was able to retrieve her keys.

We have two issues:- one is that she doesn't seem to understand the role of the management company, in that she thinks they are a 24 hour service who should be able to answer to any issue in the building, and the second is that she had some outside party basically force the elevator door for her.

I'm leaning towards having the elevator inspected for damage and having the cost assessed to her, but I don't know if we're legally allowed to do that, and also, how we would prove that any damage was the result of her friends actions. I'm also having trouble finding the specific rule that was broken, although I only briefly looked at our rules and regs. Does anyone have any advice here? I'm nervous that by doing nothing I have created a liability issue (i.e. if the elevator breaks down and I knew that she had tampered with it), but I'm not sure on the basis by which to act.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
I would have a quick chat with your HOA corporate council. I would have the elevator inspected for damage and send her the bill. I'm no lawyer, but even limited comment elements I would think be off limits to owners and even renters. When you say she pried open the door. was this a typical door or the elevator door? I would also summon her to a compliance hearing and cite her under your covenant that covers vandalism or destroying property.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Wonder how big that gap was for this to happen (most folks wait until they’re completely in the elevator car before taking out keys)?

It would be one thing if her house keys have dropped and I understand how scary it can be to think the car keys are lost for good (then you have to contact the dealer to arrange for a new set and pay for it), but this lady was out of line for calling her friend to access the shaft. I understand she had to go to work, but she could have called a friend for a lift or use vacation/personal time to cover the hours she was out while working with the property manager to get her keys. I don’t know what her situation is with her employer, but that’s her issue.

In the meantime, repairs and maintenance to the common areas are association responsibility, so no one has the right to go in and do whatever, so I wouldn’t worry too much about a specific rule on accessing the elevator shaft. As a practical matter, what if this friend did this and got injured or killed – then his/her family might scream lawsuit.

If there was specific damage to the elevator, a technician should be able to see that and then you can bill her for repairs – if she balks, refer her to the association attorney and she can explain herself in court.
Otherwise, a strongly worded letter from your attorney may give her pause if she tries this again.

If your community doesn’t have a protocol for handling emergency repairs when the common area might be involved, this may be a teachable moment for you to talk to your property manager and association master insurance about developing one.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I think the core word is "elevator."

These are usually a special piece of equipment with special inspection requirements and special code and licensing requirements.

I would:
1. Call for an inspection - insist of photos of any damage - this gets the association off the hook
2. If no damage, bill the owner for the inspection - this gets it on the record re who caused the inspection to be required
3. If damage, bill the owner for the inspection and the damage - the same as your process for any owner running into the building with a car, damaging plumbing or electrical systems, etc.

If they refuse to respond to a certified letter, then turn it over to your attorney for collection. This way they get to pay for the attorney, as well.

This is simply another kind of impatient bully.
PaulM30 (B)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 02/04/2020 11:43 AM
Wonder how big that gap was for this to happen (most folks wait until they’re completely in the elevator car before taking out keys)?

It would be one thing if her house keys have dropped and I understand how scary it can be to think the car keys are lost for good (then you have to contact the dealer to arrange for a new set and pay for it), but this lady was out of line for calling her friend to access the shaft. I understand she had to go to work, but she could have called a friend for a lift or use vacation/personal time to cover the hours she was out while working with the property manager to get her keys. I don’t know what her situation is with her employer, but that’s her issue.

In the meantime, repairs and maintenance to the common areas are association responsibility, so no one has the right to go in and do whatever, so I wouldn’t worry too much about a specific rule on accessing the elevator shaft. As a practical matter, what if this friend did this and got injured or killed – then his/her family might scream lawsuit.

If there was specific damage to the elevator, a technician should be able to see that and then you can bill her for repairs – if she balks, refer her to the association attorney and she can explain herself in court.
Otherwise, a strongly worded letter from your attorney may give her pause if she tries this again.

If your community doesn’t have a protocol for handling emergency repairs when the common area might be involved, this may be a teachable moment for you to talk to your property manager and association master insurance about developing one.

The gap is probably less than an inch. It looks the same as pretty much any other elevator I've ever seen.

We have an emergency line for true emergencies, but I don't think that access to the elevator shaft to retrieve keys would fall under the definition of emergency.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Our twin 25-story towers have 4 elevators that are inspected once a month by Otis. Keys falling through the opening isn't unusual. The keys owner may have them back for free if they wait for the monthly inspection. Otherwise, they pay for the emergency visit by Otis during normal business hours. Don't recall how much that is, but I think $125. It's up to the resident to pay more if they want their keys retrieved after hours.

No, this is no way an "emergency."

The woman NEVER should have tampered with Association property whether specific in the rules or not. Not every possible behavior can be in the rules. You DO want to make sure there's no damage.

I like George's approach above: 1. Call for an inspection - insist of photos of any damage - this gets the association off the hook
2. If no damage, bill the owner for the inspection - this gets it on the record re who caused the inspection to be required
3. If damage, bill the owner for the inspection and the damage - the same as your process for any owner running into the building with a car, damaging plumbing or electrical systems, etc.

So....I was on the elevator with a young blond guy. He was tossing his keys in the air and catching them, tossing them and catching them. Finally, he dropped them and they slid down the opening. "Oh, no!," he moaned. Not again!"
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaulM30 on 02/04/2020 10:49 AM
she had 'a friend who is a contractor' stall the elevator, and I'm assuming she pried the basement elevator door open and was able to retrieve her keys.
I guess the main evidence the HOA has is that she made calls asking someone to help on this issue, but then one way or another indicated she had the keys in her possession. It seems likely she did what you describe, perhaps more because she did not want to pay $1000 or so. By any chance are there security cameras that might have caught her in the alleged act?

On the one hand, I am not keen on assessing her for damage when the proof is on the flimsy side. On the other hand, I do not think her case is good that she did not do as you describe. The HOA really has a duty to deter this kind of conduct. I think I'd at least fine her and let her threaten suit, if she is of a mind to do so.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
I completely agree with the owner that you should have a key to the elevator room.

It is really easy to stall an elevator: someone just stands in the door to the elevator to prevent the elevator door from closing. You can also pull the emergency stop button. Not really a big deal.

Keys can also be retrieved with a light and magnet without forcing the door. I would not assume the door was pried open. Most people won't force a door if some other option is available.

The rule that was broken is breaking and entering. A Crime, not a rule violation. If they forced the door.

I would tell the owner and the contractor that if they don't show you exactly what they did, then you will have to call the elevator company for an inspection and charge them for it. This could be really simple.
PaulM30 (B)
Posts: 41
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 02/04/2020 4:31 PM
I completely agree with the owner that you should have a key to the elevator room.

It is really easy to stall an elevator: someone just stands in the door to the elevator to prevent the elevator door from closing. You can also pull the emergency stop button. Not really a big deal.

Keys can also be retrieved with a light and magnet without forcing the door. I would not assume the door was pried open. Most people won't force a door if some other option is available.

The rule that was broken is breaking and entering. A Crime, not a rule violation. If they forced the door.

I would tell the owner and the contractor that if they don't show you exactly what they did, then you will have to call the elevator company for an inspection and charge them for it. This could be really simple.

We are able to access the elevator equipment, is that what you mean by elevator room? Regardless, nobody is trained on how to use it, and we don't have an on-site manager. If we had a property manager who conducted on-site duties, then I wouldn't be against them training on it, but no, it's not something that anyone should be able to just figure out, nor can we give owners access to be able to do it themselves.

The keys fell all the way down to the bottom of the elevator shaft, and she told me she had her friend stall the elevator on the 2nd floor, so the only way she could have access the keys is by opening the basement elevator door and retrieving them. There is no other way of access the bottom of the elevator shaft.

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