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JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
We've just received a new proposed contract from our management company. It's an annual contract that states there will be an automatic 5% increase in the fee annually. I don't know if this is typical since this is the first time I've negotiated a contract for this type of service. However, I don't like it. Increases should be earned based on performance which should be reviewed by the Board annually. Is this arrangement typical?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
It's not in our contract, and I agree that any increase should be reviewed and possibly negotiated.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
If I were on this HOA's board, I would recommend crossing out this part of the contract; handing it back to the management company; and informing them of this and any other changes. Then I would watch this company like a hawk. I find this an amateur-ish move.
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 01/31/2020 1:27 PM
We've just received a new proposed contract from our management company. It's an annual contract that states there will be an automatic 5% increase in the fee annually. I don't know if this is typical since this is the first time I've negotiated a contract for this type of service. However, I don't like it. Increases should be earned based on performance which should be reviewed by the Board annually. Is this arrangement typical?

Automatic increases are rather common in contracts (or shouldn't be a surprise if the vendor is supplying the proposal).

That said, I would not accept automatic increases in a property management contract if I were negotiating if your market has a selection of competent property management companies.

Make sure there's a 60-90 day notice of contract non-renewal for both sides so the company can't drop you if, for some reason, they won't deal + their interests are protected should you decide to seek a new company.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Thanks to everyone for your responses. I've already contacted him and said no. He folded without even saying anything other than "OK". I'm still digesting the proposed contract so I may ask for additional advice later.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
I had similar language in my agreements.

The above rate(s) are subject to increases of three (3) percent annually, subject to Board approval and delivered to the Board ninety (90) days prior to the end of the fiscal year.

If that were lined out, I would have just moved on to the next association.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Mark,

I can understand the logic behind what you've done. What I can't understand is why we would blindly shell out 5% increases regardless of what their performance was. The way that you word it, it leaves the Board wiggle room if there is a legit issue with how the management company has performed.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
My language is the same or similar as other companies I had worked for in the past. The language was not there to give a company wiggle room, it was there when doing budgets. From experience, I have pool companies, trash companies, landscapers, etc. increasing pricing almost every year. Some you have a choice, others not.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
What is bothersome to me in this conversation is the almost universal negative knee-jerk reaction to a proposed annual increase. 5% may be a bit much, 2% or 3% is not, given the (allegedly non-existent) rate of inflation.

As the owner of a management company specializing in small condominium associations, expenses from our suppliers increase annually, often with little or no discussion and without, in most cases, viable alternatives. I'm speaking of expenses for personnel, insurance, office space, utilities, vehicle expenses, computers/data processing, office supplies, etc.

Including an annual increase in a contract to cover this fact of life should not devolve into a discussion of whether or not it is justifiable on the basis of performance. If there are performance issues they should be identified and addressed as the year progresses. That was our experience and practice with our teams in decades with a Fortune 100 company.

What say you to the notion of a performance bonus awarded for exemplary execution of the management contract? What would be your reaction to such a clause in a management contract, with defined milestones of course?

Same negative reaction?
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
This is why manager turnover is so high in this industry.

How are management companies supposed to give mangers raises and benefits if they can’t raise their rates? How are management companies supposed to attract and keep good managers if they can’t offer raises?

The cost of everything involved in running a business goes up every year.

How much is that 5% dollar wise? Divided by the number of residents?

Does anything matter to you besides getting the cheapest price?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It isn't about getting the "cheaper price". It's about NOT providing a mandatory raise to a company that may not deserve it. Are you going to give a raise to a company your not necessarily happy with? Well it's mandatory that you do.

We would never sign a multi-year contract. It would also be our choice if we WANTED to renew or increase the amount we paid the contractor.

I think the OP was correct in finding this in the contract and taking it out. A 5 percent increase is significant. Especially since the HOA itself most likely can't even raise it's own dues 5% yearly without a membership vote. So would it take a membership vote every year to approve the MC's raise?

Former HOA President
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
My daughter, who took over my business, is meeting a client tomorrow. She asked me for some help in comparing our company with the current MC the potential client has.

Forget the 5% increase let me charge what this guys charges for documents. I removed the name of the guilty party:

Requested 31 pages of HOA Board minutes on August 24, 2018. Received response dated September 19, 2018 from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx stating:

"In accordance with State Law, the Association wants you to know there will be a minimum offset of costs charged to the association of $750.00 plus any additional copy charges that may be incurred to retrieve the information you have requested.

Please submit a check in the amount of $1000.00 made payable to the Association at your earliest convenience. Please understand that this $1000.00 is an estimate of the costs. Once received, we will look for the information you have requested in the archives and reimburse or charge you additionally based of the actual cost to the Association."

I know the price of paper and toner may have increased, but I thought $32.26 per sheet was a littttttle steep.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Absolutely. This has NOTHING to do with getting the cheapest price and everything to do with signing contracts that takes performance into consideration. In our case this management company has been around for years and consistently failed to do their duties. Failure to issue work orders that were needed, failure to fine or warn residents when requested, losing important records that they were suppose to retain, etc, etc. About 6 months ago a new Vice President and a new property manager were brought on board. We have worked hard with them to improve things and to their credit they have really been trying and improving. That is the only reason we even agreed to stay with them.

Mark previously commented that his automatic rate increase was subject to Board review. I could live with that. It's fair. What I can't live with is a company ramming a 5% rate increase down our throat with no checks and balances in place to address performance issues and tie it back to their rate.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/31/2020 4:23 PM
It isn't about getting the "cheaper price". It's about NOT providing a mandatory raise to a company that may not deserve it. Are you going to give a raise to a company your not necessarily happy with? Well it's mandatory that you do.

We would never sign a multi-year contract. It would also be our choice if we WANTED to renew or increase the amount we paid the contractor.

I think the OP was correct in finding this in the contract and taking it out. A 5 percent increase is significant. Especially since the HOA itself most likely can't even raise it's own dues 5% yearly without a membership vote. So would it take a membership vote every year to approve the MC's raise?

Being that you have almost 9000 posts, it should have sunk in that the general rule is, without a vote of the membership, Boards can raise dues UP to 20% annually and create a special assessment UP to 5% of the annual expenses of the Association.

A little math now. Let's say the MC is getting $1500 monthly, and the dues are $300.00 and there are 100 units. A 5% increase in the MC fee is $75.00 while a 5% in homeowner dues is $15.00, generating an additional $1500.00 monthly.

The homeowner is paying an additional .75 for the MC increase. I only wish my cable increased .75 monthly.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnT38 on 01/31/2020 4:28 PM
Absolutely. This has NOTHING to do with getting the cheapest price and everything to do with signing contracts that takes performance into consideration. In our case this management company has been around for years and consistently failed to do their duties. Failure to issue work orders that were needed, failure to fine or warn residents when requested, losing important records that they were suppose to retain, etc, etc. About 6 months ago a new Vice President and a new property manager were brought on board. We have worked hard with them to improve things and to their credit they have really been trying and improving. That is the only reason we even agreed to stay with them.

Mark previously commented that his automatic rate increase was subject to Board review. I could live with that. It's fair. What I can't live with is a company ramming a 5% rate increase down our throat with no checks and balances in place to address performance issues and tie it back to their rate.

THEN, why are they still maintaining your complex?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I would laugh - really hard, if I saw this in an HOA property manager contract.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Meant "managing"
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 01/31/2020 4:36 PM
Posted By JohnT38 on 01/31/2020 4:28 PM
Absolutely. This has NOTHING to do with getting the cheapest price and everything to do with signing contracts that takes performance into consideration. In our case this management company has been around for years and consistently failed to do their duties. Failure to issue work orders that were needed, failure to fine or warn residents when requested, losing important records that they were suppose to retain, etc, etc. About 6 months ago a new Vice President and a new property manager were brought on board. We have worked hard with them to improve things and to their credit they have really been trying and improving. That is the only reason we even agreed to stay with them.

Mark previously commented that his automatic rate increase was subject to Board review. I could live with that. It's fair. What I can't live with is a company ramming a 5% rate increase down our throat with no checks and balances in place to address performance issues and tie it back to their rate.


THEN, why are they still maintaining your complex?

As I explained, the company was aware they had problems with their customers and they cleaned house as a result. After extensive conversation with them and based on their performance over the last 6 months we felt it was worth the risk staying with them for one more year. Will we regret it? Time will tell.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
If the contract was for more than one year I would reject that part. It's ridiculous to expect a raise every year regardless of cost-of-living or performance. However, since it is a one year contract any increase would be irrelevant. The only question is what is the fee for the year? If they want 5% more next year, that is a decision to make next year.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
As Barbara pointed out, there is a high turnover in this industry. My first two companies I worked for, I was managing 20 properties each. You burn out real fast.

Today, become of technology, I could manage that many. Previously, and that wasn't long ago, they did everything by hand.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
As Barbara pointed out, there is a high turnover in this industry. My first two companies I worked for, I was managing 20 properties each. You burn out real fast.

Today, become of technology, I could manage that many. Previously, and that wasn't long ago, they did everything by hand.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BenA2 on 01/31/2020 4:48 PM
If the contract was for more than one year I would reject that part. It's ridiculous to expect a raise every year regardless of cost-of-living or performance. However, since it is a one year contract any increase would be irrelevant. The only question is what is the fee for the year? If they want 5% more next year, that is a decision to make next year.

Most Bylaws won't allow for contracts longer than one year, exception could be for utility (cable). Most contracts will auto renew after the initial first year. What anyone wants to be careful is getting drawn into an "evergreen" clause.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 01/31/2020 4:54 PM
As Barbara pointed out, there is a high turnover in this industry. My first two companies I worked for, I was managing 20 properties each. You burn out real fast.

Today, become of technology, I could manage that many. Previously, and that wasn't long ago, they did everything by hand.

You are exactly right. One of the issues that led to their problems was lack of adequate systems to help them manage properties.They have been phasing in a new system and we've already seen improvements in the problems I previously cited as examples.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 01/31/2020 4:23 PM
My daughter, who took over my business, is meeting a client tomorrow. She asked me for some help in comparing our company with the current MC the potential client has.

Forget the 5% increase let me charge what this guys charges for documents. I removed the name of the guilty party:

Requested 31 pages of HOA Board minutes on August 24, 2018. Received response dated September 19, 2018 from xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx stating:

"In accordance with State Law, the Association wants you to know there will be a minimum offset of costs charged to the association of $750.00 plus any additional copy charges that may be incurred to retrieve the information you have requested.

Please submit a check in the amount of $1000.00 made payable to the Association at your earliest convenience. Please understand that this $1000.00 is an estimate of the costs. Once received, we will look for the information you have requested in the archives and reimburse or charge you additionally based of the actual cost to the Association."

I know the price of paper and toner may have increased, but I thought $32.26 per sheet was a littttttle steep.

My HOA told me that it wanted $300 for a copy of some booklet.

I told them to send me the booklet IMMEDIATELY.

I got the booklet. I didn't pay a cent.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
What I am curious about, and my daughter will find out tomorrow, is the $750.00 really being charged to the HOA, because, if I was that homeowner, I could, for another $1000.00, demand a copy of their financial statements.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Melissa, that is nonsense. And I usually defend you on this board.

You have no idea what anyone’s governing documents say but your own so to assume that every HOA is unable to raise assessments more than 5% is just silly.

If you don’t think a business “deserves” to keep up with inflation, take your business elsewhere. If you’re not happy with your management company, fire them.

What people seem to forget is that while the HOAs are non profit, the management companies are for profit. I don’t know why this industry is one where the clients begrudge a business making a profit.

Look, y’all can laugh and cross things out and shove contracts back all you want. You’ll just end up with a management company that is so desperate for business they’ll take you. And you’ll get the quality of service low-balling, desperate companies provide.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
WELL SAID!
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
5% is well above the current inflation rate. The inflation rate has hit 5% only once since the 1990s.

I see contracts saying "Fees in a subsequent term may be increased by the contractor up to the applicable inflation rate, and the buyer may terminate the agreement if the contractor requests a fee increase above the inflation rate." That's one way to handle this.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
How about HOA's only increase their dues based on the current inflation rate?
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
I see a lot of PMCs speaking up here defending the increases. I personally would not allow for 5% guarantee to be a part of any contract for any service my HOA needed. I think service levels and quality of work and annual performance need to be reviewed. As someone mentioned it should happen a minimum of 90 days before the budget needs to be approved.

My last HOA in Ca. the Management company was not great and not poor. They got the job done and sometimes took longer than 5 Board members would have liked to get responses. At the time I was just put in to my role as President after 4 years as Treasurer so I had the budget down pat and knew my numbers. I asked and got board approval for the PMC to send every Vendor a note asking if any of them if they had any plan on raising contracted rates in the upcoming year. I asked that they respond with 30 days of the letter. I also added that if they did plan on an increase the Board would probably take the opportunity to go out for bid for similar services and shop the price. Most vendors do not want other vendors trying to take a long standing customer away and we had very few increases in the 4 years that this letter was sent. It is easier to Keep a customer than find a new one.

Barbara,
I totally get your side of this argument. PM is a burn out job and PMCs tend to overwork employees giving them more properties than they can handle. This is why I always tried to have communication with the President or the highest level of management to make sure that the manager that had our property had a balanced workload and was able to meet expectations.

As a board member it is our job to spend our HOA funds as carefully as we can and that means challenging things instead of excepting this when they are presented. As I have stated in posts early on the President before I took over said he thought every vendor should have escalating contracts and be given increases when ever asked. He said we want them to be happy when they are working in our community. My reply was and will always be if the check clears they will be happy. You must run your HOA like a business at all times.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
My point is this:

If you distribute a budget with 2%-3% increases in line items for utilities, insurance, alarm system monitoring, legal and accounting expenses, or what have you, only few words will be spoken by owners in dissent. Perhaps some vendor shopping may be in order, if those words are spoken by the Board, all is generally well. The perception on the part of the 98% of the owners who are not involved in the association is the Board is the Board is taking care of us and doing the right things.

If you distribute a budget with a 2%-3% increase in management company expense, or more, the mooing and oinking from the Board, and some owners, will go on for days. Parades and protests. Indignation at social events. Palace coups.

Why is that? In my earlier post I made it clear COLA increases should have nothing to do with perceived performance shortcomings, and I underline the word perceived when discussing performance shortcomings. Do you have measurement systems in place? Are the performance shortcomings perceptions and behind the back whispering or are they measured and documented? In our corporate careers, we were not allowed to deny a baseline salary increase to an employee, unless they were on a performance improvement program.

Why not with a Management Company? Do you document the shortcomings and review them regularly with the Management Company? If not, why not? Uncomfortable? It is the responsibility of the Board to take on uncomfortable tasks.

On the other hand, in our corporate environment, if an employee met and exceeded expectations, he or she was rewarded.

How many of you have sat on a Board which unilaterally awarded a management company a bonus for superior performance relative to the Ts and Cs of the contract? If you are so willing to deny a COLA increase in the contract rate, should you not also have skin in the game, some responsibility to identify and communicate performance issues?

It is my belief the Association as the client has a responsibility every month of the year to evaluate the performance of the management company relative to the contract and bring less than satisfactory performance to the table when it is observed. Not at contract renewal time, and not at COLA adjustment time.

My next comment will likely generate a firestorm of responses. My belief is Boards believe they can and should deny COLA increases because they can, and because they do not have the desire to run the gauntlet of owner push-back with respect to assessment increases.

Perfectly understandable, I am the president of the Board of the HOA in which we live. Our board has increased the assessment two years running as increases in expenses are decreasing the safety cushion in the operating checking account. The push-back has been nasty, even though the assessment had not been increased since prior to our purchase here in 2010.

I venture to say, many Board members are business owners or understand the basic concepts. Their dilemma is running the gauntlet between doing the right thing vis a vis the Management Company and a COLA increase vs. taking the heat for an assessment increase.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 01/31/2020 4:07 PM
This is why manager turnover is so high in this industry.

How are management companies supposed to give mangers raises and benefits if they can’t raise their rates?
Why is it you think management companies cannot raise their rates? I do not think what you posted follows at all from the comments before your post.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 01/31/2020 3:52 PM
What is bothersome to me in this conversation is the almost universal negative knee-jerk reaction to a proposed annual increase.
If it were only a proposal, and not a contractual requirement, then fine.

Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 01/31/2020 3:52 PM
5% may be a bit much, 2% or 3% is not, given the (allegedly non-existent) rate of inflation.

As the owner of a management company specializing in small condominium associations, expenses from our suppliers increase annually, often with little or no discussion and without, in most cases, viable alternatives. [yada snip]
This is not how I interpreted the posts before yours. To me, it's odd that you do.

Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 01/31/2020 3:52 PM
Including an annual increase in a contract to cover this fact of life should not devolve into a discussion of whether or not it is justifiable on the basis of performance. If there are performance issues they should be identified and addressed as the year progresses. That was our experience and practice with our teams in decades with a Fortune 100 company.
I do not see how you can rationally compare for profit corporations' practices with those of a non profit corporation, except through perhaps naivete.

Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 01/31/2020 3:52 PM
What say you to the notion of a performance bonus awarded for exemplary execution of the management contract? What would be your reaction to such a clause in a management contract, with defined milestones of course?
Do you have in mind some milestones that are reasonably objectively quantifiable? If so, I am all eyes.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Bill,
I always enjoy reading your posts. They are always beneficial to everyone that reads them. I see your points and get it. The problem I have is making it without being able to quantify it. Maybe a way for PMCs to go about earning an increase would be to find ways to help the Board shave costs on other services over the year. This is not hard if you have a way to make sure the HOA is getting what they need for the best price. I have found that many times managers get bids without asking questions or understanding the right way to negotiate with vendors. It is easier to spend other peoples money.

As a retired guy that has been in Business for 39 years I can tell a bad contractor a mile away. I also ask challenging questions so they know that I am not the guy they want to give a Story to and inflate the quote. I make it a habit of meeting with my PM as many vendors as I can when proposals are requested. I want to know what the manager is asking for and what the vendor understands. At the end of the day I am able to bring this information to the board at meetings and give my recommendations. It saved us over 10k last year. I am the President of the HOA so it is great but if I were the Property manager that would make a strong case for a bonus or an annual increase when asked.

If anyone HOA out there wants to increase Board meeting attendance it is easy. Just increase the dues and they will come running.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 01/31/2020 6:19 PM
I see a lot of PMCs speaking up here defending the increases. I personally would not allow for 5% guarantee to be a part of any contract for any service my HOA needed. I think service levels and quality of work and annual performance need to be reviewed. As someone mentioned it should happen a minimum of 90 days before the budget needs to be approved.

My last HOA in Ca. the Management company was not great and not poor. They got the job done and sometimes took longer than 5 Board members would have liked to get responses. At the time I was just put in to my role as President after 4 years as Treasurer so I had the budget down pat and knew my numbers. I asked and got board approval for the PMC to send every Vendor a note asking if any of them if they had any plan on raising contracted rates in the upcoming year. I asked that they respond with 30 days of the letter. I also added that if they did plan on an increase the Board would probably take the opportunity to go out for bid for similar services and shop the price. Most vendors do not want other vendors trying to take a long standing customer away and we had very few increases in the 4 years that this letter was sent. It is easier to Keep a customer than find a new one.

Barbara,
I totally get your side of this argument. PM is a burn out job and PMCs tend to overwork employees giving them more properties than they can handle. This is why I always tried to have communication with the President or the highest level of management to make sure that the manager that had our property had a balanced workload and was able to meet expectations.

As a board member it is our job to spend our HOA funds as carefully as we can and that means challenging things instead of excepting this when they are presented. As I have stated in posts early on the President before I took over said he thought every vendor should have escalating contracts and be given increases when ever asked. He said we want them to be happy when they are working in our community. My reply was and will always be if the check clears they will be happy. You must run your HOA like a business at all times.

The only way a manager can have a balanced workload is if the company hires enough staff or maintains a smaller client load, neither of which they can do if they never increase rates.

You say you must run the HOA like a business? Well the owner of the management company must run his business like a business.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Many managers have many more properties than they should be managing. Here is part of the reason. Say you're a new PMC and you generally get what others don't want. You take what you can get until you can replace them with quality type HOA's.

Let's say the PMC has 60 properties, all bring in a minimum $ amount you set, say $350.00 a month. That's $21K before taxes. You have three managers, two bookkeepers, a receptionist/part-time assistant. You use no HOA specific software, only excel and word, escrows are all done by hand, a 15 year old copier with no scanning capability.

I think they are way too many PMC's. Part of the problem is the smaller HOA's, which are generally condos that don't have the skillset to manage themselves. The way I look at it, if I can do it, anyone can do it.

My daughter's business plan is to solicit larger association and put an on-site staff in the complex. Pay the manager and staff well. Make it a career and don't burn them out.

Mark,

To respond to your answer, I have never seen, in this business any contract demanding an automatic increase, especially without a performance clause. If I am going for an increase, it is included, along with all other vendors, in the upcoming budget for the new year.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Barbara,
Yes you are correct both are business. Both need to control cost and both need to look for ways to work smarter not harder. I never said any of this is easy.

Your job is definitely one of the tough ones out there. You have 5 members with different agendas many times unreal expectations of what it takes to do the actual job. Then you add to the mix homeowners who love you till they get the nasty gram reminding them that they broke a rule that has been in the CC&Rs since it began. Then they get on Facebook and Yelp and trash you. That is as much apart of the burnout thing as not getting a raise IMO.

I always try and partner with my managers and help them be successful. If they look good the board looks good and vice versa.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
In my first job, I had 20 properties. A couple had 5 person Boards, the majority three Board members. The majority had only quarterly meetings and a annual meeting. Of the maybe 70 Board members, I might have had just three that actually lifted a finger in their own HOA. Try getting anything done with that kind of cooperation and then yes, you could see your efforts up on social media.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Maybe some real numbers would be helpful here.

In my market, the starting salary for a portfolio manager is $39k a year. With experience and certifications, you might get up to $55k.

Portfolio size can range from 7 properties to 20, depending on how short staffed the department is (and they are always short staffed, its just a matter of degree). Even when you have fewer properties, it's only because they are larger, so you still have about the same workload of emails, maintenance calls, delinquent accounts, etc.

These properties may be 70 miles from the office. You will visit each of them at least once every other week, so expect to spend at least two days a week in your car. Mileage reimbursement is maybe 53 cents a mile, which does not compensate for the wear and tear on your car, especially when you have properties under construction and get nails in your tires all the time. Oh and you'll get reimbursed for tolls, eventually, but be prepared to pay up front for those.

Most homeowner boards meet monthly, whether they need to or not. It's in the contract so by golly they are going to drag that manager out to the property to listen to them gossip and argue. 70 miles each way. So figure seven nights a month, you've got a board meeting, and some months, you've got 11 because the quarterly boards are meeting and of course everyone has an annual - or two, if they can't meet quorum the first time.

I've said before - the extent to which boards are actually involved in the association that you see on this board is not typical.

For those 7-20 communities in her portfolio, the manager is preparing budgets, answering all homeowner correspondence, doing inspection drives, sending violation letters, taking owner phone calls, issuing fobs, preparing meeting agendas, preparing meeting packets, reviewing delinquencies, negotiating payment plans, ensuring all common area maintenance is performed, supervising vendors, reviewing invoices, inspecting work that's been done, sending meeting notices, updating disclosures for the resale certificates.

And if you're on the high end of that pay scale, expect that part of your job will be training the endless stream of new managers.

Every single thing that makes a portfolio manager's job easier - software, assistant managers, compliance inspectors, more managers to share the load - costs the management company money. Every single thing that makes the job more tolerable - i.e. more money! - costs the management company money.

So when associations push for lower and lower fees, and no increases, they are keeping this miserable cycle in motion.

And for what?

The largest management company in my area charges a minimum of $1000 a month for management. A 5% increase (they usually do three) is $50 a month. So for the sake of $500, a board would risk having to change management companies (which is going to cost a lot more than $500!) or risk having a manager change every few months because of the working conditions?

The Board's job isn't to spend the least amount of money, it's to spend money wisely. And spending it on a management company that treats its employers well, so that associations have good, well-trained, experienced, and consistent managers - is money well spent.

I will say - before I left portfolio I did get promoted to "senior" manager, and was making $67k - which was unheard of. But my portfolio had properties with some of the largest management fees, and the boards loved me, so it was worth it to the company do pay to keep me around. And currently, I am an onsite manager, and my salary is determined by the board themselves, not the management company. I absolutely ask for a raise every year and I get it. Because I deserve it. And because my salary is a line item in the budget, I stand up in front of the membership at every annual meeting and am more than happy to explain why I deserve it.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Barbara,
As with Bill I have looked for your posts since moving to Texas for your insight. I have no doubt that you are in the top 1 or 2% of your field. You deserve what you are able to work for and negotiate. Using the numbers you just provided raising dues on 20 + properties to pay the good managers would be beneficial to the PMC more than the few employees that actually get the raises. We can agree I hope that most companies would never have blanket 5% raises every year for all employees.

Every business owner needs to ask for what they want if they expect to get it. I always recommend that you have a business case that proceeds that request. Not a contract that guarantees it. It makes me remember the 20% Tip being added to the restaurant checks. This mostly benefits the lazy servers because the great ones get that tip without forcing the customer to pay it without knowing if the service warrants it.
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
You should always have language that allows you to leave a company if you are not happy with the service especially if you have a history of not being happy with the service. As for the price increase you should look at the total cost for the contract for the life of the contract. For example I could charge you $100,000 the first year with a 5% increase each year and that would cost you $315,250 over three years or I could charge you $105,083 a year with no increases and that would cost you $315,250. I would be weary of companies that don't price their services to cover their increased costs over the life of the contract.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Funny or am I the ONLY one that noticed the ones who are arguing for the 5% ALL used to work for or work for MC's? Of course their argument is going to be that the HOA pay the 5% increase cause it gives them a raise... LOL!

The reality is, I don't give our lawncare people a 5% increase. They are only real vendor we are to have. What we do is vote to A. Keep them. B. Increase the amount we feel comfortable with. C. We also will bid out the contract to 2 other vendors with that increase in mind. We always have a 3 bid rule. Which even if we decide we are going to keep a vendor it doesn't hurt to shop around to know what is going on with other vendor pricing/offers.

I would not sign a contract with anyone in real life that rolled in an automatic increase. My employer doesn't even guarantee me an increase every year. Never mind a 5 percent one. Why does the HOA have to pay more to the MC so they can provide this to the MC's employees?

Former HOA President
KellyM3 (North Carolina)
Posts: 2,239
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 02/01/2020 4:36 AM
Funny or am I the ONLY one that noticed the ones who are arguing for the 5% ALL used to work for or work for MC's? Of course their argument is going to be that the HOA pay the 5% increase cause it gives them a raise... LOL!

The reality is, I don't give our lawncare people a 5% increase. They are only real vendor we are to have. What we do is vote to A. Keep them. B. Increase the amount we feel comfortable with. C. We also will bid out the contract to 2 other vendors with that increase in mind. We always have a 3 bid rule. Which even if we decide we are going to keep a vendor it doesn't hurt to shop around to know what is going on with other vendor pricing/offers.

I would not sign a contract with anyone in real life that rolled in an automatic increase. My employer doesn't even guarantee me an increase every year. Never mind a 5 percent one. Why does the HOA have to pay more to the MC so they can provide this to the MC's employees?

There's nothing wrong about fee increases at stages of a business relationship as my board does from time to time when a vendor has approached us w/ a request for an increase and explanation. After all, inflation runs approximately 2% annually and, in my opinion, a long-term business relationship brings stability to an HOA community and that fact, to me, can enhance the value and be justification for a small increase.

These automatic increases are certainly detached from service quality and a freebie that an HOA board shouldn't negotiate away.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am NOT saying that a vendor doesn't deserve or earn an increase. However, I don't think they deserve an AUTOMATIC built in raise. Especially since 5% isn't necessarily the cost of living increase amount in every state/city. I think increases are negotiable but not if automatic. What incentive does that offer if you know your going to get extra money no matter what? My bosses don't do that... LOL! I have to work hard to qualify for a larger raise.

Former HOA President
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
The exact wording that I objected to was "Post term 5% annual increases". If anyone who works for an MC thinks this is appropriate I'd be curious to know if you include include this type of clause in your own employee's contracts?

Any thing above a cost of living increase should be negotiated based on performance.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
I would like to see the all the language dealing with the increase. I have looked at a lot of MC contracts/agreements and have never seen one that had an automatic clause in it.

I have also been a Board president and that language was never in any proposal we sent bids out on.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 02/01/2020 7:24 AM
I would like to see the all the language dealing with the increase. I have looked at a lot of MC contracts/agreements and have never seen one that had an automatic clause in it.

I have also been a Board president and that language was never in any proposal we sent bids out on.

Here it is:

SECTION 7 -- MANAGEMENT COMPANY COMPENSATION

7.01 Management Services Compensation: The total compensation to which Management Company shall be entitled during the term of this Agreement shall consist of a “Management Fee” paid monthly on or before the tenth (10th) day of each calendar month determined as follows:

June 1, 2020 – May 31, 2021: $X,XXX.XX Per Month

Post Term 5% Annual Increase
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
My eyes are deceiving me. But, where is the word "automatic" anywhere in what you just posted.

Exactly what is Post Term 5% Annual Increase. I did a Google search and all I got had to deal with pregnancies.
JohnT38 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1,631
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkW18 on 02/01/2020 7:53 AM
My eyes are deceiving me. But, where is the word "automatic" anywhere in what you just posted.

Exactly what is Post Term 5% Annual Increase. I did a Google search and all I got had to deal with pregnancies.

First of all if you have a problem with the wording then perhaps it's an indication that it shouldn't have been included in the first place. Secondly, unless I'm mistaken the following provision locks the 5% increase in annually. With that said, we could discuss the wording all day long but you and I both know the MC's intent was to get a 5% increase automatically.

SECTION 8 -- COMMENCEMENT, TERM AND RENEWAL

8.1 Commencement, Term & Renewal: The term of this Agreement shall be twelve (12) months and shall commence on June 1, 2020 and, unless sooner cancelled pursuant to the terms of this Agreement, shall be automatically be renewed at the end of the original term for successive one-year terms unless a timely Notice of Termination is given by either party to the other in accordance with Section 8.02 below.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
I have never been accused or ever claimed to be a mind reader.

Here is the exact language I had in my agreements. As you can see, their is two sections, term and compensation.

3. TERM OF THE AGREEMENT

This Agreement shall commence on ____________________________ (Effective Date) for a term of one year ending on __________________________ (the ‟Contract Period”). Upon the expiration of the Contract Period, or any extension of it, the term of this Agreement will automatically be extended for a period of one year unless terminated in accordance with the following:

Notwithstanding, either party to this Agreement may terminate it by giving the other Party advance written notice by Regular Mail, of at least thirty (30) days. Notwithstanding, any termination shall be effective on the last day of a month. Association agrees that Manager shall receive all fees payable as set for in this Agreement whether or not Company is permitted to provide its services during the notice period.

Termination shall require that more than 50% of the authorized number of Directors vote for termination at a legally noticed meeting of the Board of Directors. Any notice of termination pursuant to this Agreement must be given by the Association to Company, accomplished by a letter signed by the Secretary and President of the Association certifying that the required vote of the Directors has been obtained to terminate this Agreement pursuant to this paragraph.

Upon termination, the contracting Parties shall account to each other with respect to all matters outstanding as to the date of termination except that the final monthly operating report will be distributed within twenty (20) days after the end of the last full calendar month of management along with a final check for any operating funds of the Association. Notwithstanding, Company may hold funds required to cover any outstanding unpaid checks as reasonably required.

4. COMPENSATION

4.1 In consideration for Company's performance of the duties specified below in paragraph
6 hereof, the Association hereby agrees to pay Company a monthly fee equal to _____________________________________ ($) for the Contract Period of ______________________________. The payment referred to above shall be paid to Company on or before the first day of each month in which Company is to perform the services specified below.

4.2 The above rate(s) are subject to increases of three (3) percent annually, subject to Board approval and delivered to the Board ninety (90) days prior to the end of the fiscal year.

4.3 In addition to any consideration due and payable pursuant to paragraph 4.1 above, the
Association hereby agrees to pay the Company for the extra services incurred by the Company in connection with the performance of its duties hereunder. A description of the extra services is attached hereto as Exhibit "A" and incorporated herein by this reference. Any amounts due and payable for extra charges shall be advanced or paid on a monthly basis, at the sole discretion of the Company.

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