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AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Consider the following covenant at a fictional condominium:

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"37. Flooring Sound Limits, Upper Level Units. For all upper level units, all flooring shall meet or exceed a [professional floor sound rating] of not less than 55.

(a) Tile, wood, laminate and other hard surface flooring
Upon installation of hard-surfaced flooring, owners shall perform and submit to the board the results of a professional floor sound rating test performed by a testing agency approved by the board. If the floors fail to meet or exceed a rating of 55, the Member shall bring the flooring into compliance."
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An upper level unit owner (Zachary) installs a wood floor in his unit. Testing yields a rating of 60. Technically the floor violates the covenant. Worse, the lower level unit owner, Joan, reports that, as soon as the floor was installed, the noise in her lower level unit became intolerable and a nuisance. The dispute finds its way to court.

Expert witnesses testify that the required sound level rating for upper level units cannot be achieved. The experts testify this is due to how the condos were constructed.

Zachary's attorney says this makes the covenant "unfair and unreasonable." Zachary's attorney points out that whoever wrote the covenant misled buyers into thinking that it was entirely possible to install a wood floor and meet or exceed the required sound rating. Zachary's attorney asks the court to (1) rule that the covenant is neither fair nor reasonable; and (2) order experts to identify a reasonable sound limit rating.

Joan's attorney responds: "Every owner bought into this condo with eyes wide open. Here's the proof that Zachary received a copy of all covenants before buying his condominium. [Hands judge the proof.] Zachary could have investigated further the structure of the condominium. Zachary was never guaranteed the chance to have a hard surface floor. For him to argue that the floor sound rating is not reasonable because of how all the units were constructed is something he should have considered before he bought his condominium. This covenant is fair and reasonable. It should not be thrown out. The professional floor sound rating of 55 is what it is. It should not be touched."

Suppose you are the judge. First, is the covenant fair and reasonable? Second, should you set a new (and easier to attain, helping Zachary's position) sound rating limit, based on subsequent expert testimony?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Keep in mind the CC&R's are PUBLIC documents. So whether or not they were "handed" to them means nothing. They are publicly accessible. That ends that argument they were not informed or mislead on the HOA's part. The HOA at this point can have the owner remove the flooring. How that is up to the process allowed.

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Did the expert conduct tests of all the other units? What construction engineering evaluation tools did the expert use to determine the impossibility? Did the expert gave access to construction photographs taken during the actual construction?

The expert is the red herring - without this apparently baseless binary component, it’s easy.

1. Yes
2. No
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
1. Yes
2. No

The ability to have hard surface flooring in an upstairs unit is contingent on being able to achieve the correct sound rating. It's not a guarantee or promise of any kind. I disagree with Zachary's lawyer's claim that the restriction "unreasonable" in an upstairs unit. It would be unreasonable if there were no purpose behind it or if it affected the livability of the upstairs units. And such restrictions are very common in multi-story buildings - Zachary isn't being singled out any any way.

Having lived in a condo, I will say that anyone living in such housing needs to expect limitations on what they can do and to hear noise from their neighbors. If hard surface flooring is on your must-have list, then you need to buy a home where this is guaranteed. If you can't stand noise overhead, you need to buy a home without upstairs neighbors.

Buyers have an obligation to choose housing that meets their needs and desires. If they do not do so, then it's on them when things aren't to their liking. No association board has the ability to turn an unacceptable situation into an acceptable one - it just doesn't have that power when the issues are a natural consequence of a building's structure.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
George, no tests of other units were done. The evaluation only considered the documented fact that the condos are wood frame. No photos of the construction are available. But all parties agree the construction is wood frame. Your thoughts are welcome.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/26/2020 5:21 AM
It would be unreasonable if there were no purpose behind it or if it affected the livability of the upstairs units. And such restrictions are very common in multi-story buildings - Zachary isn't being singled out any any way.[snip for brevity other good comments]
CathyA3, thank you. You added some reasons and compelling reasons of which I had not thought. This is a real life situation that is coming up from time to time at a condo where some of my friends live.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/26/2020 9:25 AM
Posted By CathyA3 on 01/26/2020 5:21 AM
It would be unreasonable if there were no purpose behind it or if it affected the livability of the upstairs units. And such restrictions are very common in multi-story buildings - Zachary isn't being singled out any any way.[snip for brevity other good comments]
CathyA3, thank you. You added some reasons and compelling reasons of which I had not thought. This is a real life situation that is coming up from time to time at a condo where some of my friends live.

You're welcome. I ended up selling my first floor condo because of excessive noise from upstairs, and now live in a townhouse (neighbor on one side only) since I'm one of those who doesn't want to hear anything overhead. Noise travels up and down more easily than it does from side to side, even though our buildings were designed to minimize sound transmission between floors. In my experience, though, the noise is much more a function of the upstairs neighbor's behavior than the flooring he has, and unfortunately the downstairs person is at the mercy of that person.

For someone who is considering buying a condo in a multi-floor building, I say "know yourself". If you can't stand overhead noise, you should be on the top floor. If your heart is set on hardwood flooring, then you need to be on the first floor. And if you're sensitive to any noises or smells, you should maybe re-think the condo idea altogether.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
CathyA3, if you would care to email me at augustin1919[a]gmail.com, I would like to share something legal with you to see your reaction. It is only a few pages. If this does not work for you, no problem.

For several years now I have been aware of how big a deal hard surface flooring is in condos and apartments and the many disputes over same that land in the courts. It was a point I ran on several years ago when I ran for the board. My bottom line was the covenants allow the board to dis-approve any request for upper level hard surface flooring. Based on the suffering the latter causes and the threat of litigation it poses, I said I intended to never approve an application for hard surface flooring in an upper level unit. (The HOA attorney felt similarly. He went to a lot of trouble when disputes arose over same, all in favor of no damned hard surface flooring in upper level units.) A number of people came up to me and said thanks especially for this. Anyone who has lived in a lower level unit is very aware of this problem.
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
I think Zachary's attorney needs to add the argument that the upper unit owner can get the sound down to the required limit and the expert is wrong. Is the ceiling of the first floor unit soundproofed with roxul and resilient channels? I would say it is the upper units responsibility to get the noise to 55 regardless what they have to do. Then the problem would be does the first floor have to allow the upper floor access to the first floor to sound proof and what happens if they don't allow access. I'm on the first floor and planning to soundproof my ceiling because of upper unit hardwood floors. Our docs do not restrict flooring but does give the Board the right to make rules about the flooring but the Board has not done so yet.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Hi Sam, no the first floor unit's ceiling has not been soundproofed in any way. I appreciate reading your opinion and also about this somewhat alternative approach.

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