💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

KayC2 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 2
Posted:
During last night's board meeting our President and Vice President resigned from their board positions telling the homeowners present that their resignations were effective immediately and the homeowners accepted. The remaining board member changed the locks on the HOA office to protect the records and financials. This morning one of the former board members said they didn't resign, that their resignation had to be tendered in writing (according to our HOA attorney who wasn't given the facts of the homeowners accepting their resignations). So the former board member called a locksmith and broke into the office to access the seat of our records and financials.

Can we charge breaking and entering? How can we rid the HOA of a rogue board?

Our HOA attorney is an idiot and makes bad recommendations to our property manager and board.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Your bylaws and state law will tell you if resignations must be in writing. That is a very common requirement (some states consider email to be "in writing").

So if that is the case, then no, they did not officially resign.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
You could report it to the police. Not sure if the police would do anything, but you could file a police report.

Do the minutes of the meeting reflect a vote of the members to remove them from the board? If the members did more than just acknowledge their resignations, then they could be considered as having been removed, so then it wouldn't matter whether or not their resignations were in writing.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
KAy,
My question would be how did it happen? Was it at the start of the meeting before or after? People in attendance do not get to vote on anything at a regular meeting. Was this an Annual Meeting or Regular? Was this prompted by a Vote that did not go their way?

I am not sure how Cathy stated what your Docs actually say regarding resignations. I also find it strange that they would resign and then less that 12 hours later be trying to access any information from the office. It is also pretty quick work to already have a Locksmith out to change the locks the very next morning. This does not seem like a spur of the moment thing.

We need more info if you want solid advice.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
Also, this is my perspective as someone who works with boards of regular for-profit corporations and is on a few not-for-profit boards:

I would never see a board member permitted to break into an office to get records even if the person were validly on the board. I wouldn't dare break into an office of the nonprofits whose boards I serve, even though I'm validly on their boards.

That alone might be cause for removal.
KayC2 (Oklahoma)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Hello Mark - It happened during the meeting when a board member questioned expenditures being made without bids. You are correct, only board members vote the audience (homeowners) are there to find out what their board is doing with their dues and how they are correcting violations of the bylaws.
When the president of the board was pressured by the homeowners to answer the question from a board member, he resigned with the VP and they stormed out. In addition, the Property Manager stormed out as well.
Our HOA locksmith is on call so yes, it was quick work but not unusual to get that simple task done. The locks were changed by the remaining board member to secure the homeowners private and financial records. The former President called the locksmith the next morning and demanded the locks be changed. The police were called, the locksmith blocked from working on the locks and everyone left. One hour later, the former board members and another locksmith returned and broke into the building.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
KayC2, what I'd recommend is a "Derivative Demand" letter.

If the former board members were stealing from the HOA, or otherwise gaining financial benefits that they weren't entitled to, any homeowner might not be harmed in a way that could let the homeowner go after the former board members. But the HOA was harmed. A "Derivative Demand" letter is a demand by a homeowner that the board do something- in this case, investigate and go after the former board members for financial misconduct. If the board doesn't act, the homeowner can single-handedly go after the former board members, just like the HOA can.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
-- KayC2, President and Vice President are officer positions. An officer position is different from a director position. Though often, the same person holds an officer position and a director position. Did these two say they were resigning as directors, as officers, or as both?

-- I agree with CathyA3 about confirming what the governing documents say about resigning. Typically the Bylaws do say that the resignation has to be in writing. "Acceptance" by the members present means nothing.

-- Until it's clear whether the two that orally resigned from their director and officer positions are actually neither officers nor are on the board, I do not think one can say anything intelligent.

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
kayc2,

If your documents are silent on the issue.,, I believe if the board voted and accepted the resignations..and it was a duly called meeting. the resignations are valid. The problem is, if the president is the one who usually communicates with the hoa attorney, the president can misrepresent the actual facts.. If there is a majority of board members who will confirm the president and vp resignation. . one thing you all should do is have another board meeting and adopt the previous meetings minutes,, that was they are the official record..of the hoa..
another thing,, the remaing board needs to elect a new president so that the acting president can then contact the attorney etc.

this is how its supposed to work..

but as i'm learning.not much happens like it's supposed to. Not when there is no government agency that has oversight of hoas.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It is NOT breaking and entering. It's just entering. Nothing was broken. People often confuse this term when it comes to such situation. Which this is a CRIMINAL matter not a Civil one. The HOA should NOT be paying a dime to the locksmith as it was not an approve expense. I'd put that expense for OPENING the door directly on the potential ex-board member's pocket. The HOA changing the locks are on them.

I gave my resignation in writing. Plus did not run for re-election at the January elections. Gave several months of notice to members I was no longer going to be President come next elections. That way we could get some people thinking of running etc...

The current board should have accepted the resignation and noted it in the board meeting notes. Which would not be approved till the next meeting by the board. The board should then have either appointed or voted amongst themselves who to take over those positions.

Not sure why lawyer was even involved in the first place. However, I find some uneducated boards do this a lot. So can't fully blame the attorney as my bet is on the blind leading the blind situation here.

Remember there is a difference between CRIMINAL violation and CIVIL. The HOA doesn't live inside a bubble. Someone enters property without authority or approval to take something not owned by them, can have the cops called. Plus pay for any damages.

Former HOA President
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/25/2020 4:08 AM
It is NOT breaking and entering. It's just entering. Nothing was broken.

Errrm, you might want to reread it. You seem to be conflating the difference between "breaking" and "entering" with the difference between "breaking and entering" and "burglary".breaking and entering:
n. 1) the criminal act of entering a residence or other enclosed property through the slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door), without authorization.
"If there is intent to commit a crime, this is burglary. If there is no such intent, the breaking and entering alone is probably at least illegal trespass, which is a misdemeanor crime."

This action certainly seems to rise to the level of burglary, but the cops and DA should decide that.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
They used a locksmith to enter. Which does not qualify as "breaking". It is unlawful entry. Police can only create charges they can NOT dismiss them. So the breaking charge would get tossed out of court.

Former HOA President
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
What part of "slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door)" are you failing to understand? Nothing needs to be "broken" for the crime of breaking and entering to occur.
If authorization was given, that is the only thing preventing this from being a crime. As I understand from this thread, the authorization is the only thing in question.
Quote:
Posted By BobB31 on 01/25/2020 6:08 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/25/2020 4:08 AM
It is NOT breaking and entering. It's just entering. Nothing was broken.


Errrm, you might want to reread it. You seem to be conflating the difference between "breaking" and "entering" with the difference between "breaking and entering" and "burglary".breaking and entering:
n. 1) the criminal act of entering a residence or other enclosed property through the slightest amount of force (even pushing open a door), without authorization.
"If there is intent to commit a crime, this is burglary. If there is no such intent, the breaking and entering alone is probably at least illegal trespass, which is a misdemeanor crime."

This action certainly seems to rise to the level of burglary, but the cops and DA should decide that.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
IT WAS A LOCKSMITH!!! Same amount of force and use of a key if you walked in the door. Good lord. No damages were done except for the bill of the locksmith. It still would get tossed out of court for "Breaking" as no damages occurred.

Took Criminology....

Former HOA President
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/25/2020 8:42 AM
IT WAS A LOCKSMITH!!! Same amount of force and use of a key if you walked in the door. Good lord. No damages were done except for the bill of the locksmith. It still would get tossed out of court for "Breaking" as no damages occurred.

Took Criminology....

So all a burglar has to do to keep from being convicted of breaking and entering is bring a locksmith with him to open the door. Ridiculous.
In some states, including FL, breaking and entering is the same as burglary. If nothing is taken the charge might be reduced to criminal trespass. In no state is an unauthorized person allowed to enter a building, whether through a locked, unlocked or open door or window. Whether a lockpick or a locksmith is used is irrelevant.
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Correction
Quote:
Posted By BobB31 on 01/25/2020 8:49 AM
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/25/2020 8:42 AM
IT WAS A LOCKSMITH!!! Same amount of force and use of a key if you walked in the door. Good lord. No damages were done except for the bill of the locksmith. It still would get tossed out of court for "Breaking" as no damages occurred.

Took Criminology....


So all a burglar has to do to keep from being convicted of breaking and entering is bring a locksmith with him to open the door. Ridiculous.
In some states, including FL, breaking and entering is the same as burglary. If nothing is taken the charge might be reduced to criminal trespass. In no state is an unauthorized person allowed to enter a building, whether through a locked, unlocked or open door or window. Whether a lockpick or a locksmith is used is irrelevant.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Again the police create charges. Breaking is a DIFFERENT charge than ENTERING. The judge can toss out the breaking charge but keep the entering. Criminal does not get off on all charges. Some will stick others do not. Hence "case dropped of all charges" is heard in court if found completely innoncent. Otherwise you get convicted of separate charges.

Man feel like took my exam again...

Former HOA President
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/25/2020 9:26 AM
Again the police create charges. Breaking is a DIFFERENT charge than ENTERING. The judge can toss out the breaking charge but keep the entering. Criminal does not get off on all charges. Some will stick others do not. Hence "case dropped of all charges" is heard in court if found completely innoncent. Otherwise you get convicted of separate charges.

Man feel like took my exam again...

It isn't even remotely possible you've misremembered it? I cannot find a single citation that backs up what you say. Please post a statute where breaking is defined separately from entering. I'll be happy to change my mind if you do.

https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/whats-difference-between-burglary-and-larceny.htm
BobB31 (Florida)
Posts: 178
Posted:
Here's another: "The slightest physical force—for example, lifting a latch, releasing a bolt, or opening an unlocked door or window—is enough to constitute breaking."
When the locksmith opened the door unauthorized, he was "breaking".
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
BobB31, I googled and confirmed your points. Thanks for the illumination.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BobB31 on 01/25/2020 12:43 PM
Here's another: "The slightest physical force—for example, lifting a latch, releasing a bolt, or opening an unlocked door or window—is enough to constitute breaking."

When the locksmith opened the door unauthorized, he was "breaking".

But maybe not entering as did the others. But having hired the locksmith to do the break, there could be some charges like aiding and betting.....Stop playing lawyers.......

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here