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How many HOAs comply with the IRS requirement for 1099s for services from contractors and sole-proprietors

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RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
I learned of this, https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/information-returns-forms-1099 this year. I informed my POA's Board around April of 2019 and reminded them again recently. Their answer was no other Boards did it so they are not.

I suppose this IRS requirement is not widely known, or while I think it would apply to most HOAs/POAs since they are normally organized as non-profit entities under IRS policy, perhaps it does not apply to them - anyone know for sure?

This could be very costly, since the IRS rule states if you do not obtain tax identification numbers from non corporation entities that provide $600 or more of goods or services to your non-profit, you must withhold 28 taxes from payment to them. If the IRS pursued this against a non-profit, it would imply this withholding was done and charge the non-profit for it, plus fines and interest, regardless if the withholding was actually made - in which case the entity would just be out that extra money it did not collect.

Some questions to other POAs and HOAs:

1) Do you comply with this law and process these 1099s for $600+ services obtained from non-corporations?

2) If not, do you not do so because you did not know about the law? Or you decided to ignore it, if you did know about it? Or perhaps a tax or legal advisor advised that it is not applicable to you?

Here is the actual law/policy per the IRS site:

A tax-exempt organization must file required information returns, such as Form 1099-MISC (PDF). An organization does not withhold income tax or social security and Medicare taxes from, or pay social security and Medicare taxes or federal unemployment tax on amounts it pays to an independent contractor (non-employee). Generally, if the organization pays at least $600 during the year to a non-employee for services (including parts and materials) performed in the course of the organization’s business, it must furnish a Form 1099-MISC, Miscellaneous Income to that person by January 31 of the following year.

The tax-exempt organization will need the social security number or EIN of an independent contractor to complete Form 1099-MISC. If the independent contractor is a sole proprietor, the SSN is preferred. The organization should always ask the independent contractor to complete Form W-9, Request for Taxpayer Identification Number and Certification (PDF), before beginning work.

If the tax-exempt organization does not obtain an SSN or EIN before the organization pays the contractor, the organization must withhold income tax from the payment, generally referred to as backup withholding. Backup withholding rules require that 28 percent of the payment be withheld, and reported on Form 945, Annual Return of Withheld Federal Income Tax (PDF).

Note: Do not report payments to corporations on Form 1099-MISC unless reporting payments for medical, health or legal services. Refer to the General Instructions for Forms 1099, 1098, 5498 and W-2G (PDF) for more information on 1099 reporting and withholding requirements.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Roger, I am curious: What type of services are you having done that are performed by an individual that is not working on behalf of a company? One problem with hiring such individuals is that they often lack the licensing and bonding that a HOA's Declaration may require.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/15/2020 10:49 AM
Roger, I am curious: What type of services are you having done that are performed by an individual that is not working on behalf of a company? One problem with hiring such individuals is that they often lack the licensing and bonding that a HOA's Declaration may require.

Ongoing Grass cutting - 2 different people/groups cutting different areas of subdivision throughout the year.
Occasional sprinkler/irrigation work
Occasional/seasonal landscaping work
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:

When I was Treasurer, we complied.

Minor cost (tax form software and forms from office supply store).

Mind you, it only went to the attorney, our bookkeeper (an independent contractor) and the CPA who audits our books every other year. (we are self managed)

You are not required to send them to all companies you do work with.
For example, we did not send them to our landscape contractor or our refuse/recycle contractor.

Hope this helps.

BTW, I discovered in my area that if you didn't get the forms by early January, the office supply store ran out and had to order online (as a special form is required).
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/15/2020 1:58 PM

BTW, I discovered in my area that if you didn't get the forms by early January, the office supply store ran out and had to order online (as a special form is required).

So it sounds as if many in your are complied? Mostly non-profits or corporation buying the forms?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 2:03 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 01/15/2020 1:58 PM

BTW, I discovered in my area that if you didn't get the forms by early January, the office supply store ran out and had to order online (as a special form is required).


So it sounds as if many in your are complied? Mostly non-profits or corporation buying the forms?

I suspect so.
The 1099-misc forms and software would be used by many corporations and contractors when they have sub contractors.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/15/2020 3:13 PM
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 2:03 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 01/15/2020 1:58 PM

BTW, I discovered in my area that if you didn't get the forms by early January, the office supply store ran out and had to order online (as a special form is required).


So it sounds as if many in your are complied? Mostly non-profits or corporation buying the forms?


I suspect so.
The 1099-misc forms and software would be used by many corporations and contractors when they have sub contractors.

I just researched it. The forms are in triplicate form and an entity cannot just print them. I also found that attorney services, if normal course of business, require 1099s if over $600 regardless if the attorney is incorporated or not - a special rule for attorney services.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
So, go ahead and order some forms from the IRS, which doesn't cost anything. You also need to order the 1096 transmittal form. Then a few phone calls and fill out the forms and send them in.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 01/15/2020 4:08 PM
So, go ahead and order some forms from the IRS, which doesn't cost anything. You also need to order the 1096 transmittal form. Then a few phone calls and fill out the forms and send them in.

I am not on the Board. I informed the Board about it in April 2019 and again at the beginning of this month. They never responded to me. I noticed in the minutes to their April Board meeting, when I originally informed them it needed to be done, the Board decided since no other Board did it they were not going to do it either. That is what is in the minutes.

I plan to bring it up at the General Meeting asking why they refuse to do it. I would like to get it into the minutes again, so if the IRS does ever catch the association for it, members could make a case that the Boards, which refused to do it, should pay as individuals since they are the ones refusing and not the overall membership. We are a fairly small association, ~50 members/homes and yearly total expenses are about $15K. Based on the financial statements, I calculated the 2019 penalty and implied tax withholding would be around $4200 for 2019 alone. That would would be over 25% of the whole budget of the association. Again, I feel the membership should not bear that if a Board of 5 refuses to do it when they have been informed it is required.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Now, it gets easier to understand.

It sounds as if your board disagrees with your assessment.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 4:47 PM
Posted By JeffT2 on 01/15/2020 4:08 PM
So, go ahead and order some forms from the IRS, which doesn't cost anything. You also need to order the 1096 transmittal form. Then a few phone calls and fill out the forms and send them in.


I am not on the Board. I informed the Board about it in April 2019 and again at the beginning of this month. They never responded to me. I noticed in the minutes to their April Board meeting, when I originally informed them it needed to be done, the Board decided since no other Board did it they were not going to do it either. That is what is in the minutes.

I plan to bring it up at the General Meeting asking why they refuse to do it. I would like to get it into the minutes again, so if the IRS does ever catch the association for it, members could make a case that the Boards, which refused to do it, should pay as individuals since they are the ones refusing and not the overall membership. We are a fairly small association, ~50 members/homes and yearly total expenses are about $15K. Based on the financial statements, I calculated the 2019 penalty and implied tax withholding would be around $4200 for 2019 alone. That would would be over 25% of the whole budget of the association. Again, I feel the membership should not bear that if a Board of 5 refuses to do it when they have been informed it is required.

Board members tend to get a fair number of ideas and suggestions for projects, meaning that the board would have to take on these projects and spend time on them. It's somewhat understandable that they get resistant to doing extra work. You are right that it needs to be done. If you volunteer to do it for them (and for your community), they may accept. This is a pretty simple project that won't take much time (about the same amount you are spending here).
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:


Board members tend to get a fair number of ideas and suggestions for projects, meaning that the board would have to take on these projects and spend time on them. It's somewhat understandable that they get resistant to doing extra work. You are right that it needs to be done. If you volunteer to do it for them (and for your community), they may accept. This is a pretty simple project that won't take much time (about the same amount you are spending here).

I could do that but I am not sure if the Board will go along with it. A problem is that the two sets of people who do the grass cutting, entrances and roadsides are cut by two different groups of people, are likely immigrants who may or may not be documented. I suspect one of both would not be able to produce tax identification numbers nor SSNs. In which case, the IRS requires 28% withholding. I am not sure if that situation is why the Board is refusing by I suspect it might be one of the reasons.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 1:36 PM
Posted By AugustinD on 01/15/2020 10:49 AM
Roger, I am curious: What type of services are you having done that are performed by an individual that is not working on behalf of a company? One problem with hiring such individuals is that they often lack the licensing and bonding that a HOA's Declaration may require.


Ongoing Grass cutting - 2 different people/groups cutting different areas of subdivision throughout the year.
Occasional sprinkler/irrigation work
Occasional/seasonal landscaping work
Do you know whether these two different groups have submitted EINs or SSNs?

By any chance, given your proximity to the border, does your objection have anything to do with using folks who may not reside in the United States lawfully? And you think the HOA is abetting this?

Right now my bigger concern is that some person cutting the grass or digging to repair an irrigation system gets hurt and sues the HOA. Do you think these two groups have insurance? I see Texas does not require companies to have workers comp. To me this translates to bigger risk for the HOA.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Augustin,

You posed the question I had better than I could.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/15/2020 5:20 PM
Do you know whether these two different groups have submitted EINs or SSNs?

By any chance, given your proximity to the border, does your objection have anything to do with using folks who may not reside in the United States lawfully? And you think the HOA is abetting this?

Right now my bigger concern is that some person cutting the grass or digging to repair an irrigation system gets hurt and sues the HOA. Do you think these two groups have insurance? I see Texas does not require companies to have workers comp. To me this translates to bigger risk for the HOA.

Both sets of worker could be. I know one of them has been in the area for at least 25 years because I know a family who uses him weekly to maintain their yard which is ~ 3 acres. He also cuts some other lots where there are homes. He has a semi-professional business with about 5 workers but it is probably not one that is advertised or listed with Angie's list. I do not know about the other one. It is two older Hispanic people, husband and wife. She pulls weeds in landscaping while he uses a push mower in a more pristine landscaping area that is the entrances of the subdivision. My personal gut feeling is they are documented but I do not know.

RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 01/15/2020 5:20 PM
Do you know whether these two different groups have submitted EINs or SSNs?

I do not know but I would be very surprised if they had because the current Board tries to do as little as possible. For example the Treasurer, who is the only Board member who has served more than a year - the rest are all new in 2019, who has been Treasurer for about five years now, quit using a tax adviser, when Boards before his tenure always used one, and switched to post-card sized 990-N so that he had almost nothing to do as far as IRS filings.

He, in my opinion, prepares no financial statements - all he does is basically rearrange bank statements in some summary reports he calls financial statements. Also, he is very sensitive. If anyone requests financial statements from him, he will not comply - the Secretary has to send them, then he cries, literal cries, that people do not trust him. I was at a Board meeting where he talked for about 15 minutes about how bad it made him feel that someone requested financial statements - he was slightly sobbing about it.

So based on his personalty, I would be shocked if he requested that kind of information.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Great opportunity to volunteer?
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
On my original questions: so many HOAs do comply with the 1099 requirement? or just a small minority do?

The reason I want to know because I am going to bring up the situation at the general meeting that is happening soon. If I can learn if it is normal for HOAs to issues 1099, I will report that and if not many do, I will report that also but if I cannot gauge it all, I will not bring up any point on whether other HOAs do or do not.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Roger,

It shouldn't matter what other HOAs are doing or not doing.
It also shouldn't matter what is the norm.

What matters is what is required by the tax code.

The software and forms are $15 to $20, depending where you purchase them.
Time to fill out, probably no more then an hour for first time users.

CjC
Posts: 210
Posted:
We do comply with this. We do not need to do this for the landscapers since we employ the company and they are responsible for their employees. Same for snow removal and pool maintenance company. BUT we pay a secretary for our mailings and meeting minutes. That person is the only person we need to issue a 1099 to. She was shocked to get it the first year and quit soon thereafter since she realized how much she had to pay in taxes.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
She quit instead of paying her fair share of taxes?
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
RogerJ1,
So I have to assume your POA/HOA must be self managed. IS this correct? Most HOAs that have a management company require that the PMC follow the IRS rules and that includes getting a W9 prior to any checks being cut. This then goes into their system and if that vendor does more than $600.00 worth of work in the Calendar year it prompts them to send the 1099 as is legally required.

As a Board member we pay the PMC for services rendered and Invoices paid for Jobs. I would view them responsible if they do not follow the rules of the IRS. This is also why you hire them because as Boards get new members every Election knowledge comes and goes. You might have a CPA and Lawyers on your Board one year and a group of Soccer Moms the next year (No offense intended to Soccer Moms). Every HOA is only as Intelligent as the people who are running it. That means the Board or the PMC and the Board.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 5:50 PM
For example the Treasurer, who is the only Board member who has served more than a year - the rest are all new in 2019, who has been Treasurer for about five years now, quit using a tax adviser, when Boards before his tenure always used one, and switched to post-card sized 990-N so that he had almost nothing to do as far as IRS filings.

He, in my opinion, prepares no financial statements - all he does is basically rearrange bank statements in some summary reports he calls financial statements. Also, he is very sensitive. If anyone requests financial statements from him, he will not comply - the Secretary has to send them, then he cries, literal cries, that people do not trust him. I was at a Board meeting where he talked for about 15 minutes about how bad it made him feel that someone requested financial statements - he was slightly sobbing about it.

So based on his personalty, I would be shocked if he requested that kind of information.
The one person who would not give an SSN/EIN is now gone. Is the above an issue you want to discuss further here? If so and fwiw, I think keeping the books, managing the taxes et cetera, even on a hoa that has minimal contracts and expenses, and only a $15k budget, with about 50 members, is a lot of work. If the treasurer is all your HOA has handling the books, then first, I would be somewhat sympathetic, and second, I would be concerned about his competence. If I were on your board and others agreed, I think I would ask the board for an okay to contact a few accounting firms or property mangers and see what they would charge, possibly doing the aforementioned, contracted-out, secretary's duties as well.
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 01/16/2020 7:56 AM
RogerJ1,
So I have to assume your POA/HOA must be self managed. IS this correct? Most HOAs that have a management company require that the PMC follow the IRS rules and that includes getting a W9 prior to any checks being cut. This then goes into their system and if that vendor does more than $600.00 worth of work in the Calendar year it prompts them to send the 1099 as is legally required.

As a Board member we pay the PMC for services rendered and Invoices paid for Jobs. I would view them responsible if they do not follow the rules of the IRS. This is also why you hire them because as Boards get new members every Election knowledge comes and goes. You might have a CPA and Lawyers on your Board one year and a group of Soccer Moms the next year (No offense intended to Soccer Moms). Every HOA is only as Intelligent as the people who are running it. That means the Board or the PMC and the Board.

Yes self-managed. After many decades of a nice tranquil subdivision, we now have a radical board that is pursuing self interests of at least two members. Also, 4 of the 5 Board members are all new, and the 5th one that has been on the Board for a few years, is very shy, passive and sensitive, so he will give no direction and just votes and does what the two, with self interest, want. So, basically the Board has no continuity.

One of the new Board members, who has a self interest, is pushing for all kinds of capital improvement products, which that person's company would be the main provider. Such projects would probably entail hiring several sub-contractors which would require a 1099 for each. That is main reason I am bringing up the 1099 issue because all it would take is one of those sub-contractors to be diligent about accounting or taxes and then complain to IRS if the POA did not issue a 1099 to expose the POA on this issue. I.e., the risk of being exposed increases from these projects.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Help out on the projects?

Volunteer to be on a committee?

Run for a Board Director position?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/16/2020 8:14 AM
Such projects would probably entail hiring several sub-contractors which would require a 1099 for each.

Which would be that companies responsibility to issue, not the HOAs.

The HOA only has to provide a 1099 to attorneys and any independent contractors (not companies) that they hire directly. This also only has to be done if they pay $600 or more in one year to that individual.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 01/16/2020 3:47 PM
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/16/2020 8:14 AM
Such projects would probably entail hiring several sub-contractors which would require a 1099 for each.


Which would be that companies responsibility to issue, not the HOAs.

The HOA only has to provide a 1099 to attorneys and any independent contractors (not companies) that they hire directly. This also only has to be done if they pay $600 or more in one year to that individual.


This is the way we handle it.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
The IRS will send you (through the mail) form 1099-Misc and 1096 for free.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/online-ordering-for-information-returns-and-employer-returns

The penalty for not sending the forms is $270 to $550 (for "Intentional Disregard") for each 1099. This does seem to be intentional disregard.

Most or all tax returns have the questions: did you (the corporation) make any payments that would require it to file Forms(s) 1099?, and: If “yes,” did or will the corporation file required Forms 1099?

More importantly perhaps: are they also not filing tax returns? If they are filing tax returns, is the treasurer going to lie about sending out 1099s?
RogerJ1 (Texas)
Posts: 550
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 01/17/2020 12:44 PM
The IRS will send you (through the mail) form 1099-Misc and 1096 for free.

https://www.irs.gov/businesses/online-ordering-for-information-returns-and-employer-returns

The penalty for not sending the forms is $270 to $550 (for "Intentional Disregard") for each 1099. This does seem to be intentional disregard.

Most or all tax returns have the questions: did you (the corporation) make any payments that would require it to file Forms(s) 1099?, and: If “yes,” did or will the corporation file required Forms 1099?

More importantly perhaps: are they also not filing tax returns? If they are filing tax returns, is the treasurer going to lie about sending out 1099s?

The association used form 990-EZ for many years for its no-profit tax reporting requirement. The current treasurer uses 990-N which is even more condensed - it is nicknamed the e-postcard form. I just looked over the 990-EZ. It only mentions 1099s in two places, places for employees and officers' compensation, both of which would be $0. I see nowhere where it asks if about payments that would trigger 1099s. The 990-N is an all electronic input form - no actual form, so I can not check it.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 6:10 PM
On my original questions: so many HOAs do comply with the 1099 requirement? or just a small minority do?

The reason I want to know because I am going to bring up the situation at the general meeting that is happening soon. If I can learn if it is normal for HOAs to issues 1099, I will report that and if not many do, I will report that also but if I cannot gauge it all, I will not bring up any point on whether other HOAs do or do not.

The only reporting you should be doing is to the IRS.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our PM handles all of this but I think the OP might be overly concerned.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RogerJ1 on 01/15/2020 10:29 AM
I learned of this, https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/information-returns-forms-1099 this year.


Your referencing non-profits. A condo or HOA is not a non-profit. There is special tax laws for these and most income falls under exempt income and, accordingly, are not taxable.

Quote:
1) Do you comply with this law and process these 1099s for $600+ services obtained from non-corporations?


Typically no.

Quote:
2) If not, do you not do so because you did not know about the law? Or you decided to ignore it, if you did know about it? Or perhaps a tax or legal advisor advised that it is not applicable to you?


Well....no one has ever filled one out as far as I know. For many decades. Never been an issue. We only hire companies, not individuals.
We do file a 1020 tax return every year.

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