HOA board recorded audio of holiday party, without consent or notice

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

What would you think of this happening in your HOA?

In a multi-family building, building residents were invited by the HOA board to a holiday party in the building's lobby. About 30 people came.

The HOA board had previously installed cameras in the building. No signs mentioning the cameras were put up, but one could see that the cameras were videotaping common areas of the building.

The HOA board subsequently put up a sign saying that the building is under video supervision.

Now one owner discovered, and the property manager admitted, that the cameras were and are recording audio as well.

So the holiday party was audio-recorded, without anyone other than HOA board members knowing. Same for any and all other activity within range of the cameras.

Acceptable?

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

In my state it wouldn't be.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Should notices been posted about the recording? Yes. That said, WGAF.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/19/2019 2:56 PM
Should notices been posted about the recording? Yes. That said, WGAF.

You don't have a problem with a board audio recording you, if doing so is a felony? If a board illegally records people, what else illegal is it doing?

SheilaJ1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 291

Posted:

Pretty sure New York consent is not required as long as your a part of that conversation. NY did pass something for telemarketers requiring consent.

Hard to prove that the HOA was recording on people's conversations, you'll be lucky to get anything relevant.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Paul,
So you say recording conversations is a Felony. Why are you coming here for Justice? Call the Police if they did anything wrong file charges.

I have installed many camera systems over the years and even the newest varieties covering large rooms or areas would have trouble hearing any personal conversations and be able to isolate a single few people. As I have mentioned in an earlier post regarding this topic Signs must be present and that is really the only requirement that I think needs to be met. When you are in a Public space you should always assume you are being recorded because you probably are in many cases.

In my last Ca. HOA we had a rule that the only way any Video could be viewed was by a Police officer was if a formal request and Report number was given. The recording also only store for about 14 days before they are recorded over and no longer viewable. Our Board and Security company did have access but only looked in the event of a report.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

It can not be admissible in a court of law so why does it matter? This falls under "wiretapping" laws. Which in some states it varies. Some require that 1 party member knows they are being recorded. Other states it may be all parties must be aware of recordings. Most of the time this type of stuff is tossed out of court for various reasons.

Former HOA President

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/19/2019 3:08 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/19/2019 2:56 PM
Should notices been posted about the recording? Yes. That said, WGAF.

You don't have a problem with a board audio recording you, if doing so is a felony? If a board illegally records people, what else illegal is it doing?

You live in Trump Tower?

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheilaJ1 on 12/19/2019 3:28 PM
Pretty sure New York consent is not required as long as your a part of that conversation. NY did pass something for telemarketers requiring consent.

Hard to prove that the HOA was recording on people's conversations, you'll be lucky to get anything relevant.

Correct: NY is a one-party consent state.

Where the HOA board's cameras are recording people who are talking, nobody who's talking has consented.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/19/2019 4:10 PM
It can not be admissible in a court of law so why does it matter? This falls under "wiretapping" laws. Which in some states it varies. Some require that 1 party member knows they are being recorded. Other states it may be all parties must be aware of recordings. Most of the time this type of stuff is tossed out of court for various reasons.

It matters because the board stated in writing that the board put up the cameras to monitor people who it didn't like.

And it matters because it's potentially a felony.

What if members of Congress did things that were felonies? What if members of boards of directors of real corporations did things that were felonies? They wouldn't last.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

So... we pretty much established that the board did something wrong. The question is, what if anything do you plan to do about it?

If this is your HOA, you're the only one who can improve your situation. The folks who post here can agree with you 100%, but that's worth the pixels that our words are written on. It's up to you to decide what you can and can't live with, and then to act accordingly.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/20/2019 5:06 AM
So... we pretty much established that the board did something wrong. The question is, what if anything do you plan to do about it?

If this is your HOA, you're the only one who can improve your situation. The folks who post here can agree with you 100%, but that's worth the pixels that our words are written on. It's up to you to decide what you can and can't live with, and then to act accordingly.

True. I don't want another lawsuit, even though I know I'd prevail.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

I am still not convinced we have all the information on this situation.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgeS21 on 12/20/2019 11:56 AM
I am still not convinced we have all the information on this situation.

The information, which the property manager confirmed in writing:

1. The building put up cameras that recorded audio and video.
2. There are cameras in the part of the building where the holiday party was held--and the cameras are right there in that space.
3. Management didn't tell anyone about the recording. Only after the party did management admit to video recording (by posting a sign), and only after that did management admit to video recording.

All admissions of recording have been in writing. And the cameras in that space are right there; they would have recorded everything.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

I don't get it then, Paul.

Why are you asking us what to do?

If you have everything necessary to force your way, just get going on it!

When you report back in what happened wrt to this situation, we will all learn from it!

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgeS21 on 12/20/2019 12:13 PM
I don't get it then, Paul.

Why are you asking us what to do?

If you have everything necessary to force your way, just get going on it!

When you report back in what happened wrt to this situation, we will all learn from it!

I think that people who complain about their HOAs/boards online generally fall into one of two groups. First are the ones who want to wring their hands and have everyone tell them how awful it is. The others are looking for practical suggestions on how to handle their situations.

The people here who answer questions usually answer as if the poster is in the second group. This makes sense since many responders are knowledgeable current and former board members and property managers with lots of experience. At most they will agree that there are more incompetent boards out there than we'd like, and here's another one. This is no doubt frustrating for those who are in the first group, who are more likely to find kindred souls on social media where venting seems to be an end in itself.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/20/2019 1:22 PM

Posted By GeorgeS21 on 12/20/2019 12:13 PM
I don't get it then, Paul.

Why are you asking us what to do?

If you have everything necessary to force your way, just get going on it!

When you report back in what happened wrt to this situation, we will all learn from it!

I think that people who complain about their HOAs/boards online generally fall into one of two groups. First are the ones who want to wring their hands and have everyone tell them how awful it is. The others are looking for practical suggestions on how to handle their situations.

The people here who answer questions usually answer as if the poster is in the second group. This makes sense since many responders are knowledgeable current and former board members and property managers with lots of experience. At most they will agree that there are more incompetent boards out there than we'd like, and here's another one. This is no doubt frustrating for those who are in the first group, who are more likely to find kindred souls on social media where venting seems to be an end in itself.

I'm a member of multiple nonprofit boards. No way would I ever commit a felony while serving on a board, unlike my HOA board.

I'm not here to vent; I'm here to seek practical support and feedback, which I've received.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/20/2019 8:44 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/20/2019 5:06 AM
So... we pretty much established that the board did something wrong. The question is, what if anything do you plan to do about it?

If this is your HOA, you're the only one who can improve your situation. The folks who post here can agree with you 100%, but that's worth the pixels that our words are written on. It's up to you to decide what you can and can't live with, and then to act accordingly.

True. I don't want another lawsuit, even though I know I'd prevail.

Chicken $hit.....or the type person that raises issues but does nothing about it as they are just trying to make trouble for others.

Paul does have some good posts when he is not looking the be the trouble maker.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 12/20/2019 2:58 PM

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/20/2019 8:44 AM

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/20/2019 5:06 AM
So... we pretty much established that the board did something wrong. The question is, what if anything do you plan to do about it?

If this is your HOA, you're the only one who can improve your situation. The folks who post here can agree with you 100%, but that's worth the pixels that our words are written on. It's up to you to decide what you can and can't live with, and then to act accordingly.

True. I don't want another lawsuit, even though I know I'd prevail.

Chicken $hit.....or the type person that raises issues but does nothing about it as they are just trying to make trouble for others.

Paul does have some good posts when he is not looking the be the trouble maker.

John, let's not use profanity or disagree like that.

Take one of the condos in downtown Greenville: what if a secretive board audio recorded the whole place- how would people there like it? They'd flip (although they'd be polite in their anger).

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/20/2019 2:00 PM

I'm a member of multiple nonprofit boards. No way would I ever commit a felony while serving on a board, unlike my HOA board.

I remember hashing out this topic pretty thoroughly not too long ago. Several pointed out that HOA boards and other boards differ in significant ways.

Most board members in the public and private sectors are professionals chosen for their expertise in some area, although some can be chosen for their prominent last name. Aside from the folks with the last name, a certain level of competence is assumed. HOA boards are often made up of people who are are begged/cajoled/browbeaten into taking a job nobody wants and who don't know what they're letting themselves in for. The only qualification is usually being a homeowner and having a pulse.

And it's unlikely that someone serving any board other than an HOA board is going to be screamed at by a disgruntled member of the population their organization serves. That's business as usual for an HOA board member, along with unfounded accusations, profanity-laced tirades, and even physical assault. It's no wonder no one wants the job.

You want a better quality HOA board, you need a better quality of homeowner because that's the pool you're pulling your HOA board members from. Unfortunately I don't know of any way to force people to become smarter and more ethical without their active cooperation.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/20/2019 3:07 PM

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/20/2019 2:00 PM

I'm a member of multiple nonprofit boards. No way would I ever commit a felony while serving on a board, unlike my HOA board.

I remember hashing out this topic pretty thoroughly not too long ago. Several pointed out that HOA boards and other boards differ in significant ways.

Most board members in the public and private sectors are professionals chosen for their expertise in some area, although some can be chosen for their prominent last name. Aside from the folks with the last name, a certain level of competence is assumed. HOA boards are often made up of people who are are begged/cajoled/browbeaten into taking a job nobody wants and who don't know what they're letting themselves in for. The only qualification is usually being a homeowner and having a pulse.

And it's unlikely that someone serving any board other than an HOA board is going to be screamed at by a disgruntled member of the population their organization serves. That's business as usual for an HOA board member, along with unfounded accusations, profanity-laced tirades, and even physical assault. It's no wonder no one wants the job.

You want a better quality HOA board, you need a better quality of homeowner because that's the pool you're pulling your HOA board members from. Unfortunately I don't know of any way to force people to become smarter and more ethical without their active cooperation.

Well said.

CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/20/2019 3:03 PM

Take one of the condos in downtown Greenville: what if a secretive board audio recorded the whole place- how would people there like it? They'd flip (although they'd be polite in their anger).

Actually, given the amount of surveillance going on nowadays, I think it's unreasonable to expect anything resembling privacy when you're in public spaces, and that includes the common areas of a community. People are pretty much used to the idea that copies of their emails go everywhere, and their cell phone conversations can be listened to by anyone with the right gizmos. And all the of "smart" tech inside your home just invites eavesdropping by strangers. (Google the recent story of a young child who was harassed by a stranger via the Ring camera installed in her bedroom.)

Laws typically lag behind technology, and I believe this is one area that is overdue for a serious re-think.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You can't expect privacy once you leave the confines of your home. That's just the way the world works now a days. Getting the mail out of my mailbox I can expect multiple camera angles. A neighbor may have security cameras on the exterior. Another may have a "ring" cam aimed at my box. A Go-Pro may be on the head of a jogger/biker. Someone may have a traffic camera in their car driving by. Are these people committing a felony?

A HOA is incorporated. Which means they are most likely not subject to felonious charges. They don't act as individuals. If they were an LLC, it may be a "drawing the short straw" who does the prison time. Otherwise, a HOA lives under the "corporate shield".

I wouldn't care if was video taped/recorded at a HOA party. It can't be used against me in the court of law.

Former HOA President

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Now, video and audio recording of office parties ... that would likely be a problem.

PaulJ6
Posts: 990

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CathyA3 on 12/20/2019 3:07 PM

Posted By PaulJ6 on 12/20/2019 2:00 PM

I'm a member of multiple nonprofit boards. No way would I ever commit a felony while serving on a board, unlike my HOA board.

I remember hashing out this topic pretty thoroughly not too long ago. Several pointed out that HOA boards and other boards differ in significant ways.

Most board members in the public and private sectors are professionals chosen for their expertise in some area, although some can be chosen for their prominent last name. Aside from the folks with the last name, a certain level of competence is assumed. HOA boards are often made up of people who are are begged/cajoled/browbeaten into taking a job nobody wants and who don't know what they're letting themselves in for. The only qualification is usually being a homeowner and having a pulse.

And it's unlikely that someone serving any board other than an HOA board is going to be screamed at by a disgruntled member of the population their organization serves. That's business as usual for an HOA board member, along with unfounded accusations, profanity-laced tirades, and even physical assault. It's no wonder no one wants the job.

You want a better quality HOA board, you need a better quality of homeowner because that's the pool you're pulling your HOA board members from. Unfortunately I don't know of any way to force people to become smarter and more ethical without their active cooperation.

CathyA3, before you describe how you think my situation is and how my HOA board works, I suggest you get the facts.

Since you didn't, and since your insinuations about my own situation and my HOA board are baseless and contrary to reality, I'll ignore them. If you're interested in making observations and suggestions that are based on an accurate observation of a situation, then I'll pay attention to them.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

I’m just interested in hearing the outcome of Paul’s efforts.

And, the end of this thread.