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LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
Can The president make a motion to appoint a board member without the item having been added to the agenda?

the owner in question was on the board previously, and resigned,, he then did things that negatively affected the operation of the website.

He wanted back on the board, and I vehemently objected. based on his actions.

The president sent out the agenda last night, and there was no mention of reappointing this owner.

it ended up where 3 of the board members abstained from the vote,( it was cowardly,,they didn't want to say no, because the owner was right there")

i voted no,, the president voted yes, and the remaining board member deffered to whatever the president said.

I objected based on the fact that the president did not place this on the agenda.

And thus, the board was not given notice to the topic,

Can I Legitimately object and is there a way to disallow this appointment.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
The agenda could have been amended, but that would have taken a vote. (Majority) to make that happen.

You could have made a Point of Order objecting to the motion, but that had to be done when the motion was made.

The motion can still be amended or recinded but it doesn’t sound like you have support from other board members to make that happen.

It sounds like you had a full board there, so the “notice” requirement could have been waived with a vote.

SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Re: above post

It was assumed that this was to fill a vacancy. The motion to fill the position lasts only for the term of that office, of course, until the next election at a Members meeting.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You voted no, the president and the one board member voted yes and the other three abstained, so it appears to me there's no majority to put the man on the board - you can and should note this at the next meeting (in front of everyone, but be professional about it - anger will only get you in trouble and you need to keep your head to deal with this).
It may be everyone on the board needs to speak up and say if they want this guy back, meaning the three who abstained will have no place to hide and will have to say what they think. All of you are adults and should be able to express concerns about the man's previous conduct and ask him what he will do to prevent ethics shortfalls and other mayhem should he return to the board. Then take the vote and see what happens.

How all this ends, I don't know, but you may want to ask your neighbors to attend and listen to the proceedings. If they feel as you, they may want to express their concerns during the resident forum and then the matter can be address during the business portion of the meeting. The homeowners will have to keep quiet during that time, but having to act in front of people may prompt the president to behave this time.

As for the discussion itself, this could have gone under new business, but depending on the issue, new business isn't subject to a vote at that time. Usually, some research is done and then the matter discussed at the next meeting where a motion can be made. However, HOA boards aren't required to operate under Robert's Rules of Order, so once you get past this, you may want to suggest setting some rules as to when items should be placed on the agenda for upcoming meetings and what will generally happen when new business is introduced.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
You do not have a board majority interested in replacing the President. This battle is not one you can win. Drop it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Do your bylaws require that only items on the agenda can be voted on at a board meeting? Or does TX statutes? If so, the prez shouldn't have brought up the topic.

But you probably have no recourse and you don't seem to have the support of the board majority. But tell us the exact vote count, please. Are there 7 on your board?

Until you can get more support, you'll have to drop the president's behavior, as augustin advises.

Without knowing TX law or Laska's bylaws, which would supersede Robert's rules, Sue, we don't know if the board could have voted to amend the agenda.

In addition, if in the bylaws or state laws, the board cannot waive the notice requirement.

Finally, some bylaws give the appointee a full term and some allow them to serve only till the next election. the latter is not universal.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Do your bylaws require that only items on the agenda can be voted on at a board meeting? Or does TX statutes? If so, the prez shouldn't have brought up the topic.

But you probably have no recourse and you don't seem to have the support of the board majority. But tell us the exact vote count, please. Are there 7 on your board?

Until you can get more support, you'll have to drop the president's behavior, as augustin advises.

Without knowing TX law or Laska's bylaws, which would supersede Robert's rules, Sue, we don't know if the board could have voted to amend the agenda.

In addition, if in the bylaws or state laws, the board cannot waive the notice requirement.

Finally, some bylaws give the appointee a full term and some allow them to serve only till the next election. the latter is not universal.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Depends on the definition of “ majority “ - Based on Number of members present and voting ? Or number of members?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/19/2019 9:03 AM
Do your bylaws require that only items on the agenda can be voted on at a board meeting? Or does TX statutes? If so, the prez shouldn't have brought up the topic.

But you probably have no recourse and you don't seem to have the support of the board majority. But tell us the exact vote count, please. Are there 7 on your board?

Until you can get more support, you'll have to drop the president's behavior, as augustin advises.

Without knowing TX law or Laska's bylaws, which would supersede Robert's rules, Sue, we don't know if the board could have voted to amend the agenda.

In addition, if in the bylaws or state laws, the board cannot waive the notice requirement.

Finally, some bylaws give the appointee a full term and some allow them to serve only till the next election. the latter is not universal.

Sound advice. Stop getting your panties in a wad everytime someone on the BOD does something you do like.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
johnc46... believe me ,, i dont get upset at everything.. it's just that lately every meeting it seems like the bylaws of our hoa are being manipulated and ignored to suit what the president wants,, .

It is a losing battle for sure.. The 4 board members who abstained ,, should have been courageous enought to actually vote no.. however,,, you know how ti goes.. noone wants to offend the president, and they want ot avoid at all costs voting in a way that opposes what he wants..
i'm so over this bs.. i really am,,

life is too short to continue to dedicate time and energy necessary to make sure things are done in accordance with our docuements.. I sometimes read other posts on these boards,,and It's so sad,, there are tons of stories that sound way worse than our situation.. but still ,theres so much dysfunction!
I realize that the large majority of posts on sites likes his will be concerning problems with hoa's..

Here's what i would like to know from some of you who have been on on hoa boards for many years..

have you ever been on a volunteer hoa board that was made up of mostly new board members and it was run effectively?? In particular,, an hoa board that was dealing with a lot of upcoming or exisitng mainteance issues.. ??

or is the very nature of having volunteers trying to make decisions for hundreds of people going to result in infighting and acrimony. ?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
You got someone willingly to volunteer to be on the board? Wrap them up with bubble wrap and put them in a chair!

Former HOA President
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Different opinions plus politics leads to acrimony in groups.

Expected and must be overcome by everyone who understands the need for cooperation and collaboration.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 12/19/2019 11:13 PM
have you ever been on a volunteer hoa board that was made up of mostly new board members and it was run effectively?? In particular,, an hoa board that was dealing with a lot of upcoming or exisitng mainteance issues.. ??


I have observed about 23 years of boards at three hoas/condos. I served just a few years. All three were old enough that they were facing either roof problems or other major infrastructure problems. At each HOA/condo for most of those years, I think the boards had directors who either were not following the governing documents on important issues or they were self-dealing. As in hiring directors for major contracts. As in being close to property managers who later were charged with embezzling. As in using tens of thousands of dollars of HOA funds to self-promote themselves and attack others in campaigns. As in letting sewage back up repeatedly into several homes over several years when the responsibility for stopping this ultimately was found to be the HOA's/condo's. More. Corrupt/inept management played a huge role in two of the three condos/HOAs.

Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 12/19/2019 11:13 PM
or is the very nature of having volunteers trying to make decisions for hundreds of people going to result in infighting and acrimony. ?


Nonprofit boards of non-hoas and non-condos are typically volunteers. They do not seem to suffer from these problems. For HOAs and condos, I suppose it is the lack of accountability that the law provides combined with much more expertise being required (but also being rarely available) to maintain infrastructure.

Can you get rid of the double commas, double question marks, double periods and ellipses in your posts? Can you start each sentence with a capitol letter? With all the superfluous (and incorrect) punctuation, I find them hard to read.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
HOA/Condo member apathy is often blamed for incompetent and corrupt boards. In the mid-term 2018 national elections, 53% of the voting-age eligible population voted (and not by proxy). If the voter turnout was similar at HOAs/condos, I think there would be fewer problems. Why isn't it similar? I think it's because people either feel lucky not to have to be an unpaid hoa/condo board member, or they are beaten down because of the lack of accountability.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/20/2019 7:44 AM
HOA/In the mid-term 2018 national elections, 53% of the voting-age eligible population voted (and not by proxy). /div>

This mean absolutely nothing. Look at how people vote in Presidential, Governorship, state and local elections. There is where you'll find your answer.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/20/2019 7:44 AM
HOA/In the mid-term 2018 national elections, 53% of the voting-age eligible population voted (and not by proxy).

This mean absolutely nothing. Look at how people vote in Presidential, Governorship, state and local elections. There is where you'll find your answer.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
It is all conjecture and recreation. There isn't any "answer."
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
Yikes, AugustinD, I apologize.

I will be more cognizant of my punctuation and lack of proper sentence structure. I don't know where I picked up the terrible habit of not bothering with capital letters or proper punctuation. But, you are correct. It makes my posts hard to read. Point taken.

how was that? :-)
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
AugustinD

You're description of your observations over 23 years is disheartening. To make matters worse. The organizations that lobby the state legislatures are mostly groups that want to preserve the status quo.
I know the CAI. community association institute is mostly a networking group for management companies and vendors.
The law firms that specialize in representing hoa's are oftentimes mostly concerned with keeping the gravy train going.
I have discovered, civil law isn't an exact science at all. Lawyers can always find a way to spin the facts to favor their client.

I wonder what it would take to make it a prerequisite to join an hoa board to take a basic education class so that board members understand what they can and can't do.
A lot of board members I have dealt with don't really understand hoa board governance and the legal limitations that they should be following.

On the other hand, I doubt that would fly. It's hard enough finding enough people to fill the seats, let alone people who are qualified or have the time and inclination to educate themselves on the various issues. ugggg

I'm depressed now. The reality of the situation is, hoa's have too much unchecked authority. There are little to no actual repercussions for board members who don't uphold their fiduciary duties. I've had board members tear up my written request for copies of contracts the board entered. At the same time she laughed and said "SUE ME".
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
And, Laska, I have seen well-intentioned folks on boards working to try and make their neighborhood work per their governing docs and state law - fitting this labor between the various other parts of their lives. Have only been on four - pres on three, secretary and treasurer on two, helpful on all.

Further, I have heard and seen enough ankle biters to know they twist much into weird stories of intent - that simply aren’t true, but are destructive of getting anything done.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
LaskaS,

I agree 100% about CAI.

I think the only thing that is certain about the U. S. legal system is that, the more money one has, the better one's chances of prevailing in a dispute.

I think Florida statutes require specific training for HOA directors. I do not recall hearing of any other state that has such requirements.

If GeorgeS is saying that a lot of the times the members are clueless about the covenants and the rest of the governing documents, and this is just as big a problem, then I tend to agree. Directors often try to enforce the governing documents against people who are not even aware they exist.

Thank you for working on the punctuation. Your last two posts have a whole different tone and readability (for the better), in my opinion.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Augustin,

Florida has worked to tighten rules for HOA/POAs, and COAs over the last few years.

FS 720 requires Board members per this partial excerpt:

“ Chapter 720 HOMEOWNERS' ASSOCIATIONS

720.3033 Officers and directors.—
(1)(a) Within 90 days after being elected or appointed to the board, each director shall certify in writing to the secretary of the association that he or she has read the association’s declaration of covenants, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and current written rules and policies; that he or she will work to uphold such documents and policies to the best of his or her ability; and that he or she will faithfully discharge his or her fiduciary responsibility to the association’s members. Within 90 days after being elected or appointed to the board, in lieu of such written certification, the newly elected or appointed director may submit a certificate of having satisfactorily completed the educational curriculum administered by a division-approved education provider within 1 year before or 90 days after the date of election or appointment.”
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
What are ankle biters? Is that a term used for complaining owners?

With regard to you saying you have heard and seen enough.........

In my opinion, what you are saying is you've become Jaded.

I think that's a common problem with people working in ineffective systems. Policemen often become Jaded. It's a hazard of the job. They start to treat everybody, including family and friends, like criminals.

Jaded is common, but just because you've seen a lot of people twist the truth, doesn't mean that everyone who is complaining is lying. The problem is, when one becomes jaded, they lose the ability or even desire to find out the truth.

One person's trouble maker is another person's freedom fighter.... I read something like that somewhere. ..
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
People without solutions and just complaints offer nothing but air....

Former HOA President

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