am i being too "by the book"

Hi,, i have a question

first. a little bit of backround.. Our condominiums were destroyed by harvey. after that the the board presidentat that time signed a contract form debris removal/ Long story short,, the homeowners went to court to get a temporary injunction to prevent payment for undocumented, unsubstantiated bills for debris removal; that greatly exceeded the amount of debris that could have physically been removed .. owners also called a special meeting to recall the board. which was successful.
The entire point of the injunction was that a board president could not act unilaterally.. and only a vote of the board was considered a valid action of the board..

ok,, a new board was elected and lo and behold,, this is the best lesson of "be careful what you wish for" i have ever had in my life.. this new group literally wasted over 700,000 of hoa money,, there was no oversight of contractors.. the board didn't follow the required notice and voting requirements before entering into contracts. The board didn't get a majority vote of homeowners to approve a the rebuild plan(as required by our declaration) so the board decided what the property needed,,which turned out to be grossly wasteful ,unnecessary and caused more problems.

ok,, so amazing,, the owners again were able to get enough signatures to demand a special meeting to recall the 2nd board..

luckily the worst of the 2nd board resigned and the volunteer owners were able to get appointed and then we had a majority,,so we didn't waste more hoa time and money having a second recall ..as we already had achieved the removal of the offending board members.

ok so the new board began immediately to put out fires and avoid certain financial ruin.. over a year.. we have made tremendous strides.. mostly be stopping the siphoning of monies from the hoa reserves. however, we inherited a property manager that is at best incompetent.. (that's another issue)

ok, so back to the topic,, I was the the primary homeowner who from the beginning was the one who would speak up and refuse to be silenced when the board was clearly violating our declaration and homeowner rights.
Time and Time again, I harped on the fact that,, the board has discretion on some things and some things there is no discretion,, they must follow the declaration.. and and bylaws..etc.

I am now on the board and I think it is very important to do everything according to our bylaws and declaration,, especially after I harped incessantly when the other board didn't do so.

Ok,, so I have found myself increasingly at odds with the president . He is a detailed methodical engineer by profession. he is calm and on the surface that reassures a lot of people.
however,, I have come to realize that he alone is trying to control how and when things get done.. the property manager doesn't know what he's doing and won't do anyting without approval from the president..It's completely backwards.. work requests are not follow up on.. the property manager tells owners their issue is being addressed whent he property manager has done nothing towards actually having the issue addresses..

so last week..,, at a board meeting... the president says he thinks we should prepay our insureance dues. it's a total of 45,000 and since we have the money,, let's go ahead and pay them..

I objected and stated that while it certainly was an option... i didn't think that prepaying a bill that wasn't due or scheduled to be paid yet while there continue to be common area upkeep are restoration areas that have not been completed was in the best interest of the entire hoa..
I agreed that the presidents suggestions was an option..but I objected to him thinking it was a foregone conclusion that he could just slide this through.. debate went back and forth,, and a vote was taken,, I lost..
I insisted on having put on the record that I objected to prepaying the insureance bill just because we could,,when there were numerous common areas that had not been properly restored yet.

ok,, so here's what happened.. apparently the president had the payoff info incorrect.. and he sent an email telling the board it the payoff wasn ot 45,000 but was 70,000.. Well I of course, said no way... ( i know the bylaws and state laws that govern the actions of the board, so i knew that he could not approve the 70,000 through email without unanimous written consent)..

we had a meeting today and as he was discussing something else he stated that the hoa had paid off the 70,000 insureance dues.. I was livid,, i said, you can't do that.. you did not have consent to pay 70,000.. you had consent to pay 45,000.
He tried to claim the board voted to pay off the outstanding balance,, i knew this wasnt true,,and the board meeting minutes haven't even been approved yet...

Am I being too picky... ,, what should have happened is that when the president realized he had the wrong payoff amount and he then could not get unanimous written consent for approval..
the president should have been required to wait til the next meeting to vote on the 70,000 approval. It would have given me time to inform owners of the issue and to make sure that the majority of owners agreed with this large prepayment..etc..

The president thinks that since he was able to get approval for 45,000 with a majority vote.. he would be able to get 70,000 by majority vote,, and so it was an uncecesarry delay.. I called BS... 70,000 vs 45,000 is not a rounding error!.. and I think that owners have a right to be heard on the issue,, by not approving his email request for the 70,000.. it was forcing the issue to be heard at the next meeting.. however.. he gave approval to the managemebnt company to pay it anyway,,without waiting for proper approval.

Am I wrong for being a stickler for details ,,

Do i need to just go along to get along blah blah.. because um,,,, my gosh,, i can't in good conscious just allow the legally specified procedures to be ignored... i don't care what the issue is.

You aren't being too "by the book". What the president did was unauthorized.

The board can ratify the $70,000 payment now if it wants to or can elect not to ratify the $70,000 payment. If the $70,000 payment is not ratified, then it was unlawful and could be challenged by someone, but if the payment's been made I don't see how it could be refunded unless the insurer is willing to do so.

The motion could have been recinded and a new motion could have been made, for the new amount. It sounded like there was time to do that.

But if it has already been paid then just you bringing up the issue to the board hopefully makes them aware of parliamentary protocol. Try to get other board members on your side about payment authorization rights of the president who then directs the MC to issue checks. Really, he was out of line to go over the approved amount.

Just curious - why the rush to pay this bill before its due date?

Thank you all for your responses...

There was no rush to pay the premiums,

our annual budget has always dictated that the payments are spread out in 6 payments.

The only advantage to prepaying the insurance was to save finance charges that would ammount to approx 1000.. however... the insureance payment year starts in august,, so the president wanting to pay off the insureance was prepaying by 8 months..

We still have plenty of money, but my anger is directed towards the willfull disregard by the president,. He sent an email trying to get unanimous written consent for the $70000/ .. When he couldn't get it, He contacted the management company that handles our accounting only ,, and he instructed them to pay the $70,000.

And my anger is that the president veto's every idea and suggestion I make. Even when I have other board members on my side,, the president will end a meeting before we can vote. ..

In my honest opinion.. the president wants to decide how things are run. As a board member. I repeatedly point out that he has no unilateral authority to decide how things are run. The board has a right to be involved.
The problem is ,.. I know the bylaws and our state laws back and forth by now..'

I contacted the management company this morning, asking for the document that the president provided that confirms there was unanimous written consent..I also stated emphatically that I did not give my consent and I wanted the issue tabled.
The response from the management company was to call by questioning of the process "static"

Let me be clear,, I know that I can be intense. I know that I can make people made when i interrupt. I admit that my delivery often gets in the way of the message. However. what i'm saying is valid. And I'm always trying to improve my delivery.. however, when my comments are ignored and dismissed as frivolous, It angers me and i lose the ability to try and be cool calm and collected..

I'd be mad at the management company and the president. Both acted improperly, and the president acted illegally, in paying the $70k early.

I'd focus on getting the president removed from office. The board could vote out the president so that the president is only a director, and members of the HOA could vote the person off the board.

I'd do that.

LaskaS, I think you are being 'unreasonable' in only one regard: Expecting people who just want to be in control (come hell or high water, and typically accompanied by a few loyal and fundamentally unethical minions), to behave rationally. To me it sounds like this is a tough lesson in realpolitik for you.

What are your options? You can either try once again to elect a board who sees things like you do, or you can concede that having to work with frankly idiots is not worth your time.

Else I think all who responded so far are giving sound advice and observations.

George21.. ,, i agree, sometimes a poster can be onesided,

that's why I made sure to include that I also realize I can be a pain in the ass..

here's how the board trid to gaslight me today...

apparently the board meeting minutes didn't specify an exact amount of payoff.. they just said, vote to payoff balance of insureance premiums early.,,( the reason for this ,, at the meeting the management company rep.(who handles our accounting only) was not certain if the payoff was 40,000 or 45,000.)

HOWEVER.. those minutes have not been approved not adopted.. I object to the way the motion was worded, becasuse it gave the impression that whatever the payoff amount we,, we agree.. THIS WAS NOT THE CASE

Today when I notified the management company that I did not give consent to pay 70,000. I also requested what verification he was given that stated the president had unanimous consent,,

a couple other board members chimed in a said that the previous meeting minutes gave the president authority.. I objected, and said, the meeting minutes have not been approved and that the fact that the president himself sent out an email request for approval of the new higher amount negates what they were trying to claim.
.... the president himself send out an email the day after the meeting informing the board that the amount was much higher,, and he needed unanimous consent,,so for us to respond yet to pay it or no to table..

i responded no..

guess what,, this comment from @augsitind is exactly the issue,, I keep thinking that these people must admit the truth,, once i present it in black and white,,how can they deny,, but they continue to deny..

don;t laugh,, but i'm going to go read up o realpolitik,, i can guess what it means,, but i haven't really every read about the topic before.. and its probably exactly what is occuring.. realpolitik,, uggggg

The MC is supposed to have all contracts on file. Board members generally don’t keep vendor files .

The entire contract should have been reviewed at the time of renewal and this price increase.

Does your MC attend board meetings and come prepared to present issues such ad this?

It sounds like you have management issues more than board issues.

Lasko,

If the president of the Board can “deflect” motions, then the Board, itself, is gutless.

Time to move on.

Two cents:

I think many of the regulars here have had the proverbial snot beaten out of them with Boards. Many have given a lot of emotion and anger to HOA disagreements. It can be exhausting. With the benefit of hindsight, becoming upset or getting mad practically speaking do nothing to forward your goals. They do just the opposite. I suggest that, as future issues arise, you state briefly how you feel (and state it as an opinion, not fact) and then vote, period, end of discussion. No arguing. No debating. You might even just show up to vote at board meetings and keep your thoughts to yourself unless asked. Maybe write down on a slip of paper, "If you stay calm now, you will be a lot calmer in the coming days and weeks" and have it taped in some un-obvious place on your notebook for meetings. And so you may be better prepared for the next disagreement.

Because of the herd in control now, you will lose often. I think you have to try to accept that you have done all you can.

Ten years down the line, I think this practice is going to help a lot.

I think what you are going through emotionally is covered to some extent by the phenomenon "cognitive dissonance": You are thinking the HOA President and his minions should behave rationally. But they do not. You keep trying to get them to behave rationally, and they will not. This results in inner conflict. Said inner conflict will eat a person alive. Take all your reasoning ability and consider what is the rational approach to dealing with those who are unreasonable; who were not raised with your values; who may not be very educated; and so on.

I agree you should stand up for principle even when it's a losing battle. But for the best chances of success both personally and publicly, if possible, just vote, lose often (with this board) and try to move on.

Georges21.. george,, I guess you are correct.. maybe I am the irrational one and maybe the board president is just a great guy and i'm just getting in the way and my speaking up for what i think is right is just a waste of time..
however,, I"m the one who joined hoatalk, i'm the one who made the post. , the comments and suggestions by fellow hoa talk posters are opinions and suggestions based on their own experiences , That's what i was hoping to get... some perspective and opinions from people who are willing to give me their best advice and insights.. so literally,, are you just here to troll..or what,,??

Laska
A motion was passed to pay the insurance premium in advance to save money.

The board was wrong to do this without having a copy of premium in their hands for discussion. The Manager did not do his duty.

When the true amount was realized, the president tried to get approval by email. I am assuming that failed ?? or not?

If approved , and the bill was paid, there is nothing you can do now. If the check has not been issued, the motion can be recinded or amended by 2/3 vote at the next meeting. A special meeting could have been called.

Since this “raise” was so high and not listed for that amount in the budget, more care needed to be done with this whole process. The president dropped the ball.

It sounds like you are more knowledgeable about Parliamentary procedures than your other board Members, but you are going to have to be more gentle in “ correcting” them. Sounds like a “ good ole boys” Network is entrenched there.

Mark,

Just noticed - sorry.

Name calling? Most of the Georgie in my life was over with by 3rd grade or so.

Lasko,

If I were a board member in your community, I too would have an issue with anyone deciding, on their own, to repair and/or replace capital items - regardless of the size, or savings.

Paying regular operating costs - heat, light, insurances, etc, are a part of the MC’s duties and often don’t need board approval, since they are listed in the budget as yearly expenditures. A report is given regularily to the board that these monthly expenditures have been paid. Some boards even have a motion at the end of the meeting to approve monthly expenditures.

The issue is that the president 1) wanted to prepay the policy to save money (good idea) and 2) the he and the board were not aware of the huge policy increase ( fault of the MC for not being prepared for the meeting) So the president, instead of halting the payment , went ahead and carried out the original motion to approve the pre-payment.

Cardinal sin? Probably not, but it sure shows a lack of understanding of parliamentary procedures and adherence to the budget on the part of the president, and the incompetency of the MC.

Two people who need watching.

Good luck!

I agree.

Laska

You have to remember, most of the posters here like board members that "go along to get along".

Basically it comes down to this,,

every single issue,, not big issues..but property mainteance issues,, follow up issues,, issues that the property manager should be very experienced overseeing and making sure the get done..

instead,, the property manager will lie to owners and tell them he has it ont he list or he's waiting for parts,,when in fact,,no parts have been ordered...

I could go on and on... we need a competent property manager,, ,, board members at different times have agreed that the prooperty manager is not getting things done.. but the president is always making excuses for him..

and the board doens't want to criticize the president,so they say,,"oh ok"

Ive been working behind the scenes this past week..

i am going to make a motion to set up and interview several experienced property managers.. I knew i couldnt' the approval i needed to outright replace the current.. but luckily,, as of last night,, i have confirmation that 3 other board members will vote yes and approve the motion...Im the 4th,, we have a majority..

(we currently have 7 members)

i just need to make sure a word the motion such that it includes calls to action....not just agreement that we need to do it..

any suggestions.

Not true.

There is a big difference between "go along to get along" versus acknowledging that being abrasive or angry will undermine one's own ability to get things done.

The first values smooth sailing above all else. The second values getting things done and behaving in ways that maximize one's ability to do so.

They may appear the same on the surface, but they differ in their essence.

augustinD.. absolutely great advice,, and you actually are correct,,,, technically i was wrong technically the president was wrong..and,, 100% i believe The disputes are likely far more about bullying and the satisfaction some have of being in a majority and happily dumping on someone else..... and i'm the one being dumped on..lol//

thank you for your insight,,this is perfect

LaskaS, I think Mark means I am now giving you a hard time, seemingly for my own amusement (grrr Augie), rubbing your nose in your own mistake, though what led to the mistake was well-intentioned. You are likely way more sincere than your fellow board members in wanting to bring things up to an appropriate standard. Working with the reality of feckless personalities is the challenge at HOAs, at every City Council meeting, at every meeting of state legislatures and the U. S. Congress, even at meetings of the U. S. Supreme Court.

It's really not all for my own amusement. Rather given my own experiences with Board Presidents who do as they please on major issues, it's a little cathartic to tell someone like you they need my advice . I have been where you are, more or less. Most of the regulars here have.

By the way I do not like your HOA President's argument that around $1000 of finance charges were saved by pre-paying. For fun and to get us in the ballpark: $70,000 in a money market account today earning 1.5% per annum is a bit more than $1000 per year of interest.

I would still like to hear the Board perspective.

Is not paying for insurance an option?

Laska

While I can admire your I am going to fix that sign attitude, you are not looking past your nose. In this litigious society, a BOD must be on guard as in hire only license and bonded people/companies to do any work. Wild scenario. Had you had a debilitating accident while doing the repair, the scumbag personal injury lawyers would have been knocking on your door to sue the HOA even when you took it upon yourself to do it.

Again, I admire your get it done attitude, but, as a Member of a Corporation BOD, you have to look at the big picture even when the big picture is unfair/sucks.

augustin,,, i asked before,,,

i'm not acting as a board member,, when i fixed the rotted wood..and treated and cleaned all the mildew and mold..

, i'm acting as a homeowner... i made that clear..

as a matter of fact.. the reason why i didn't seek reimbursement is because i didn't get preapproval..and i knew it would be inappropriate to ask for reimbursement after the fact..

question,,,

other than vote out the current board..(and all things considered,, the current board has done an admirable job)..
what is a homeowner to do if the common area issues are not maintained as required by our declaration..
i've already filled out the service request, Twice!.. i've already in my capacity as a board member ,brought up the issue at meetings.. and the board agreed it needed to be cleaned and repaired..
at what point does a homeowner ,,resident homeowner have a right to make a cosmetic repair./improvement that is sorely needed.

at some point ,, residents that are fed up with get it done themselves..whether they do it themselves or hire someone to do it..

the ONLY reason the action was criticized was because it was ME. period point blank,,that is the only reason.. any independent observer would recognize what is gong on here... as many of you have done..

HOW CAN RESIDENTS owners insist that the board not just tell us what we want to hear,,but we want the issues addressed,, it's not a matter of not having the money,,or it being something that is optional...these are required mainteance issues.. . they aren't critical.. as in water leaks,,etc.. but they are mandated. and they aren't being taken care of. .....please don't say reelect new board members..that's fine.. I'm looking for some way to get the board to ACTUALLY GET THINGS DONE..NOT JUST TALK ABOUT IT.