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GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Hi! I’ve replaced my carpet floor in my Condo (3rd floor) without prior approval from HOA and they found this out and wrote us ‘cease and desist’ letter. I’ve send them Architectural Application later and they denied it. Now they invite us to Board of Directors meeting on this matter.

House rules says the noise should not exceed a Sound Transmission Class rating of 50 and installation of floor covering other than carpet may result in this violation. It also says that if neighbor will complain it may be required to have sound test performed.

This is that house rule says, but in practice they just deny anything but carpet. How can I appeal to this decision or adjust floor to get into agreement? Any ideas are welcome!
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
GolovaG, installation of hard surface flooring in 2nd floor units and higher is a known source of litigation for condominiums nationwide, due to the transmission of noise. It sounds like your board is being wise. If I were you, I would plan on laying carpet.
GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/10/2019 8:37 PM
GolovaG, installation of hard surface flooring in 2nd floor units and higher is a known source of litigation for condominiums nationwide, due to the transmission of noise. It sounds like your board is being wise. If I were you, I would plan on laying carpet.

Was there any sound tests performed in the past to actually proof that it violates city requirements?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GolovaG on 12/10/2019 8:40 PM
Was there any sound tests performed in the past to actually proof that it violates city requirements?


What I can attest to is that the case law sometimes shows that the courts requiring sound testing in order for the complainant to prove that the noise from the hard surface floor above is a nuisance. When a condo's covenants offer the possibility of an upper floor owner installing hard surface flooring, and depending on the condo, at times covenants will specify, for example, an IIC rating that has to be met.

I think your bigger problem is that your Board likely has the discretion to flat-out reject hard surface floors. If this is so, and push came to shove, your chances of losing in court are high. If you quote the relevant covenants for your condo here, I might be able to offer more advice.

I am not aware of city requirements.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Golova,

This is pretty simple.

You decided to do something that was against your rules and were caught.

It’s time to say you’re sorry and install carpet.

GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/10/2019 8:49 PM
Posted By GolovaG on 12/10/2019 8:40 PM
Was there any sound tests performed in the past to actually proof that it violates city requirements?


What I can attest to is that the case law sometimes shows that the courts requiring sound testing in order for the complainant to prove that the noise from the hard surface floor above is a nuisance. When a condo's covenants offer the possibility of an upper floor owner installing hard surface flooring, and depending on the condo, at times covenants will specify, for example, an IIC rating that has to be met.

I think your bigger problem is that your Board likely has the discretion to flat-out reject hard surface floors. If this is so, and push came to shove, your chances of losing in court are high. If you quote the relevant covenants for your condo here, I might be able to offer more advice.

I am not aware of city requirements.

Does board has a discretion to reject hard surface even if it's not specified in 'House Rules'?

The only relevant document that I have is House Rules and here's how it looks like:
"a. Homeowners should be aware that the City of Foster City requires that noise should not exceed a Sound Transmission Class (STC) rating of 50.
b. The installation of any floor covering, other than carpet, may result in violation of this code. If a noise complaint is received, the homeowners may be required to have sound tests performed and, if found in violation of the code, will be required to take any corrective action"
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GolovaG on 12/10/2019 9:53 PM
Does board has a discretion to reject hard surface even if it's not specified in 'House Rules'?

The only relevant document that I have is House Rules and here's how it looks like:
"a. Homeowners should be aware that the City of Foster City requires that noise should not exceed a Sound Transmission Class (STC) rating of 50.
b. The installation of any floor covering, other than carpet, may result in violation of this code. If a noise complaint is received, the homeowners may be required to have sound tests performed and, if found in violation of the code, will be required to take any corrective action"


GolovaG, thank you for quoting the above. Now can you please ask the manager of your condominium for a copy of the condominium's Declaration, also known as "covenants, conditions & restrictions," CC&R or similar? Or this document may be among those you received when you bought the condo. Then can you post it here? I want to see if there's a section in the Declaration that discusses allowable flooring. If it is easier, feel free to email the Declaration to me at [email protected]

The Declaration is most likely meaningfully different from the 'House Rules.'
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
Seems like someone complained so it is your responsibility to have sound testing done. Once you have the sound testing done if you are within acceptable range take the information to the Board and request to be allowed to keep the surface based on the test if you are out of the acceptable range replace it with a surface that falls within the acceptable range.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GolovaG on 12/10/2019 8:26 PM
Hi! I’ve replaced my carpet floor in my Condo (3rd floor) without prior approval from HOA...

I stopped reading after this.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Gol

Get ready to replace you new flooring if it does not pass the sound test.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I suspect the Board might not allow themselves to be trapped by sound tests.

I think I would simply insist on compliance to the governing docs.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Hi! I’ve replaced my carpet floor in my Condo (3rd floor) without prior approval from HOA and they found this out and wrote us ‘cease and desist’ letter. I’ve send them Architectural Application later and they denied it.


Simple math:

Replace the floor with carpet = $
Fight the HOA with lawyers = $$$$
Fight the downstairs homeowner civil lawsuit = $$$$

Which one is cheaper?

GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 12/11/2019 3:31 AM
Posted By GolovaG on 12/10/2019 9:53 PM
Does board has a discretion to reject hard surface even if it's not specified in 'House Rules'?

The only relevant document that I have is House Rules and here's how it looks like:
"a. Homeowners should be aware that the City of Foster City requires that noise should not exceed a Sound Transmission Class (STC) rating of 50.
b. The installation of any floor covering, other than carpet, may result in violation of this code. If a noise complaint is received, the homeowners may be required to have sound tests performed and, if found in violation of the code, will be required to take any corrective action"


GolovaG, thank you for quoting the above. Now can you please ask the manager of your condominium for a copy of the condominium's Declaration, also known as "covenants, conditions & restrictions," CC&R or similar? Or this document may be among those you received when you bought the condo. Then can you post it here? I want to see if there's a section in the Declaration that discusses allowable flooring. If it is easier, feel free to email the Declaration to me at [email protected]

The Declaration is most likely meaningfully different from the 'House Rules.'

Thanks for response, Augustin. Here's CC&R: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2tvbzmixpes8ocq/HOA%20CCR%27s.pdf
GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 12/11/2019 3:16 PM
I suspect the Board might not allow themselves to be trapped by sound tests.

I think I would simply insist on compliance to the governing docs.

Can they ignore sound test or not allow to do that?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GolovaG on 12/12/2019 2:10 PM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 12/11/2019 3:16 PM
I suspect the Board might not allow themselves to be trapped by sound tests.

I think I would simply insist on compliance to the governing docs.


Can they ignore sound test or not allow to do that?

Gol

They could hang their hat on the fact that you did not request permission and forget the sound test. Depends on how tough they want to be.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
GolovaG, thank you for linking the covenants. I think your biggest problem is Section 8.6. In part it states: "Only soft-covered floor coverings may be installed on floors which are located above and adjacent to any other Unit, except for replacement of any hard coverings in kitchen, bath or other areas where such hard coverings were installed in the original construction of the building."

In the courts, covenants have far more legal weight than 'house rules' and similar. The above covenant flatly states nothing but soft-covered floor coverings throughout your unit are prohibited. Sometimes a court will throw out a covenant if it is "unreasonable." But in my experience with noisy upstairs floors, and from reading some of the case law, this covenant is reasonable. In my opinion, you do not have a legal leg on which to stand. In my opinion, you should plan on installing soft-covered floor covering per Section 8.6.

For what it's worth, I have seen a number of instances where owners had to remove their upper level hard surface floors (on orders of condominium boards), on account of not reading the covenants closely in advance. A board's failing to enforce such covenants has resulted in protracted and expensive litigation more than once. These days Boards tend not to not gamble on having to face such an expense, rejecting upper level hard surface floors whenever their covenants permit same.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Post-o. Correct the above to: The above covenant flatly states hard-covered floor coverings throughout a unit are prohibited.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
What kind of flooring did you install? Many types of flooring haves sound reducing underlayment. Does it have built-in underlayment or padding under it? Does your flooring have a sound rating from the manufacturer?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I think Augustin’s point is that the CCRs clearly require soft covered floor coverings.

This is not a negotiable point of discussion.
GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 12/12/2019 4:30 PM
What kind of flooring did you install? Many types of flooring haves sound reducing underlayment. Does it have built-in underlayment or padding under it? Does your flooring have a sound rating from the manufacturer?

Vynil plan with additional underlayment to reduce noise. Both of them by specs meet STC requirement. My main concern, that they may not willing to accept it even if it's within noise requirements.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
If you'd filed for approval of this project in the first place, perhaps none of this would be happening now, so why are you yowling about the board's not accepting it now?

Get the sound check or whatever it is done to see if the underlayment will reduce noise. Go downstairs to your NEIGHBOR and ask him or her about the racket or lack thereof (all this talk about the board and it doesn't sound like you've even bothered to ask them if there's a problem and how extensive it is). For all you know, the neighbor upstairs may have an issue too, so it wouldn't hurt to talk to them.

By working with them, you may get a better idea of how effective your proposal will be and then go to the board. When you do go to the board, apologize profusely for not following the procedure and say you're eager to work with everyone to resolve the matter because your old floor was old and needed changing, blah, blah, blah.

However this ends, learn from it and get the appropriate approvals before you start the work. Good luck

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
From a board perspective .... which is what we are supposed to be doing here:

Ensure the rules are followed. Way up on the list would be the happiness of 2/3 of the folks in the COA (assuming three floors, higher percentage if more than three floors). Since floor noise is such a big issue in condos, aggressively address every instance of folks breaking the floor covering rules - no exceptions or latitude for games with sound measurement.

This is how I would broadly treat this. Do not let even one person set a precedent.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 12/13/2019 5:16 AM
From a board perspective .... which is what we are supposed to be doing here:

Ensure the rules are followed. Way up on the list would be the happiness of 2/3 of the folks in the COA (assuming three floors, higher percentage if more than three floors). Since floor noise is such a big issue in condos, aggressively address every instance of folks breaking the floor covering rules - no exceptions or latitude for games with sound measurement.

This is how I would broadly treat this. Do not let even one person set a precedent.


I agree 100%. Plus as a board member I would be unhappy if an upper level resident (1) installed flooring in direct violation of the covenants; (2) without even trying to get approval in advance; and (3) then tried to claim that the flooring and their actions are not in direct violation of the covenants. Vinyl flooring with underlayment is not "soft covered floor covering." Furthermore any flooring professional acquainted with acoustical specs for uninstalled floor coverings will tell you that the uninstalled specs have nothing to do with the final, installed noise level. This is because, inter alia, the building's structure beneath the floor covering can vary widely when it comes to sound transmission. The only concession I might make to the upper level resident is that most have not heard of how hard surface upper level flooring is a huge nuisance issue nationwide. Hence the typical condo's covenants have specific rules about flooring in upper level units. In my experience it is a tough lesson for many an upper level resident.
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
What is the definition of soft-covered floor coverings?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Carpet ... usually with a pad.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamE2 on 12/13/2019 7:01 AM
What is the definition of soft-covered floor coverings?


"Depends on what the meaning of 'is' is." ?

The OP could lawyer up. I believe former President Clinton spent somewhere around a million dollars on attorneys defending his position in the lawsuit Jones v. Clinton. He lost. Then the judge ordered him to pay a chunk of the opposition's attorney's fees as well.

I expect after the OP had spent a great deal of money (exceeding the cost of moving, say), she would lose.

Maybe it would be best if the OP spent a few thousand dollars right now to see what a competent, honest attorney thinks the chances of her/him prevailing are. She or he should just be watchful for attorneys who gouge, being willing to stir up trouble wherever they can, all to increase their billable hours. They are in the minority but I have seen them in action.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Or, the OP could simply follow the rules of their association?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamE2 on 12/13/2019 7:01 AM
What is the definition of soft-covered floor coverings?

Here it's carpet and vinyl (sheet).

Hard surfaces are hardwood (including bamboo), laminate, tile, marble, slate, and others of that ilk.

Vinyl plank and vinyl tile are questionable. They definitely have more give to them than surfaces that are clearly hard. However, they seem to have less give than carpet and sheet vinyl - I've walked on them in model homes and they also don't absorb sound as well as typical soft surfaces.

Many declarations were drafted before these latter items became popular, and I'm not sure what kind of track record they have. Unless the OP's declaration states specifically how it defines "soft", I wouldn't want to speculate how that board will decide this.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
I visited someones house who had someone living above with hardwood floors. It was highly annoying. Especially when a woman with high heeled shoes walked around upstairs.

So say what you want about specs, quiet certification, etc, etc. Your a horrible neighbor if you keep these hardwood floors and THAT is why they are banned.

Its soooo annoying to your downstairs neighbor to listen to your clickety clack of your shoes.
GolovaG (California)
Posts: 7
Posted:
Augustin, how does hearing usually works? Is these a certain procedure they follow? I'm trying to prepare myself for it.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
If you've been invited to a hearing, Golova, the letter should tell you what to expect. I also believe, but can't look it up right now, that somewhere in your governing documents, there's a requirement for what hearings look like to be in writing. I think state statute for instance requires that the Board give you a decision in writing xx number of days after the hearing. Take a look in your rules & regs or maybe your bylaws for the procedure.

Also check the website davis-stirling.com, Main Index, Hearings.

I think our HOA is typical where the Owners meets with the board in a closed or executive session meeting. The Board president tells you why the disciplinary action is taking place. In your case, I assume it's your installation of (1) forbidden floor covering & (2) without ARC or board permission.

You then have a chance to tell your side of the story. If you have written evidence that the sound transference is within FC requirements, it MIGHT help. But you still broke the rules, so.... refer back to what other posters have written
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
And, be sure to let us know what happened!
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
GolovaG, I agree with what KerryL1 posted. Here's a bit more from the Davis-Stirling.com site:https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Appearance-at-Hearing

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