HELP! What can I do with our Board/Management Company

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AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

I am a homeowner in Florida who is concerned about what the board/management company is doing in our community.
From preferential treatment, selective enforcement, to a complete lack of communication between the violation committee and management company.
Last week was the first meeting I have ever attended and I am not aware if this is the usual in all HOA meetings but it was a shouting match of over 20 people. I feel the need to step up and do something to keep the homeowners happy but reasonably enforce rules AND better communication.

Background: I received a violation for parking on sidewalk, called the violation committee and management company to explain that we were going through a process so that we could remedy the situation permanently but needed time. They told me "no problem" they would give me more time and to not worry about the letter/fine, days later I received a $1000 fine for not paying the fine. After attending the meeting, it seemed many of the homeowners had the same complaint.

1. Board members are CONSTANTLY violating the same rules other homeowners are receiving violations for. I have taken it upon myself to take pictures of their violations. I could turn it in to the violation committee but they're just going to report it to management company and management will give to board members who are NOT going to either fine themselves or correct the mistake. As a member, would I be able to send them a violation notice myself, even though I am just a homeowner?

2. Board members will deny/ignore architectural requests from other homeowners of things that they have approved for themselves in their own home. They will also approve things for those that they are friends with but will deny others the same requests.

3. There has been additions/amendments over the years to the by-laws but apparently any original resident who has the original by-laws needs to pay to get a copy of them. (Is that legal? Why were residents not informed of these changes?)

4. Board members pull tricks to have meetings last minute, so that attendance is low. Sometimes they cancel a meeting and reschedule without notice. Is there a legal amount of time they have to notify?

5. Is there a limit of how long a member can serve on the board? (Florida)

6. When doing the annual voting for board members, does the majority vote win? or is there a certain amount of homeowners that need to be present to vote?

I have never cared to get involved because I have lived here 30 years and have never had an issue. Lately, they came up with this violation committee (which is understandable) but now people are taking extreme measures to solve the things they are being sent violations for and its making the community look WORSE. Houses have COMPLETELY removed all their grass and added concrete (with the approval of board).

I would appreciate ANY help or suggestions, advice you can provide. Several homeowners want to get organized, find a way to stay connected and be informed. Our goal is to vote this board out and nominate a person that genuinely wants to be fair and correct, while enforcing the rules. But any suggestions of any measures or remedies we can take until then would be greatly appreciated. Please forgive me if some of my terms are incorrect. I am new to all this.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Wow. You have truly never been to a HOA meeting nor read the CC&R's. Also it costs money to produce a copy of any document. So I would expect one would want paid back.

It's not unusual for a HOA meeting to be a "shouting match". Your not going to be riding in with a white horse and rescuing anyone either. No one wants to be rescued.

I'd recommend reading your CC&R's, Articles of Incorporation, and By-laws. The CC&R's and Articles are PUBLIC documents. The by-laws may or may not be filed. You can find the CC&R's at the local courthouse. The Articles at State level. The By-laws are internal HOA documents but may be with the CC&R's.

Once you get those read you may answer some of your own questions.

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Aries,

Sorry to hear about the issues you are having.

Concerning your initial issue (fine for not paying fine that you were told to ignore): Sometimes, letters are sent automatically (computer generated). Sometimes, there are internal communication issues (person who waived fine didn't tell person who sends letters). Therefore, when dealing with a management company or your board, it's best to do it in writing (email is fine). This way you have a paper copy.

If you do have a verbal discussion, send an email to them thanking them for taking the time to talk with you and write out what you understood from the conversation. This creates a paper trail.

Concerning your main question: what to do.

The easiest solution is to gather support and become involved in the running of your Association by being elected to the Board. This gives you the opportunity to discover the real (vs. perceived) issues the Board is facing and, perhaps, influence decisions that the Board makes.

If you want to be positive you can make actual changes, you will also need to encourage others who believe as you do to run with you so your group will control the vote on the board.

Keep in mind that the issues you hope to resolve, once elected, may need to take a lower priority once you get on the board and see everything that needs to be done.

Hope this helps,

Tim

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

OP,

You could take the door behind Melissa, OR you could take the door behind Tim.

I strongly suggest the door behind Tim.

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/18/2019 7:15 PM
Wow. You have truly never been to a HOA meeting nor read the CC&R's. Also it costs money to produce a copy of any document. So I would expect one would want paid back.

It's not unusual for a HOA meeting to be a "shouting match". Your not going to be riding in with a white horse and rescuing anyone either. No one wants to be rescued.

I'd recommend reading your CC&R's, Articles of Incorporation, and By-laws. The CC&R's and Articles are PUBLIC documents. The by-laws may or may not be filed. You can find the CC&R's at the local courthouse. The Articles at State level. The By-laws are internal HOA documents but may be with the CC&R's.

Once you get those read you may answer some of your own questions.

Wow I can't believe you really took the time out of your day to read all this, reply and yet add nothing of substance or even have some sense of understanding. You clearly missed several parts where I mentioned that I am NEW to all this and have NEVER been to a HOA meeting. So yes, it is unusual TO ME, that it was a shouting match and from what I hear of the neighbors that DO participate, it has NEVER been this bad in the past 25 years. At least in THIS association. I may not ride in on a white horse but luckily I personally know the commissioner of my district, and now the telephone numbers, e-mails, and names of 50 neighbors who feel the same way and who wouldn't mind riding in with a lawyer or getting organized to get rid of this board. Thankfully they are not looking to be rescued, they just want to exercise their right and we are just trying to gain as much knowledge as we can since maybe we do not have the ability to read legal jargon as I am assuming you may have.

Being a former HOA president, I would think you would know my questions do NOT always have an answer on the By-laws, CC&R's and Articles, which was the reason why I was asking for recommendations or suggestions at least while we find the correct lawyer to go over all these documents. I have already read the sections in regards to elections, removal, etc. but my questions go beyond that and more specific to a situation.

Reading is fundamental and kindness is free.

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/18/2019 8:16 PM
Aries,

Sorry to hear about the issues you are having.

Concerning your initial issue (fine for not paying fine that you were told to ignore): Sometimes, letters are sent automatically (computer generated). Sometimes, there are internal communication issues (person who waived fine didn't tell person who sends letters). Therefore, when dealing with a management company or your board, it's best to do it in writing (email is fine). This way you have a paper copy.

If you do have a verbal discussion, send an email to them thanking them for taking the time to talk with you and write out what you understood from the conversation. This creates a paper trail.

Concerning your main question: what to do.

The easiest solution is to gather support and become involved in the running of your Association by being elected to the Board. This gives you the opportunity to discover the real (vs. perceived) issues the Board is facing and, perhaps, influence decisions that the Board makes.

If you want to be positive you can make actual changes, you will also need to encourage others who believe as you do to run with you so your group will control the vote on the board.

Keep in mind that the issues you hope to resolve, once elected, may need to take a lower priority once you get on the board and see everything that needs to be done.

Hope this helps,

Tim

Tim, thank you! I appreciate your suggestions.
I did have the violations committee sign the fine they sent me saying they were going to look into it and the persons name, date, etc. From now on I will have everything in writing to have my paper trail as back up.

In the meeting, 50 of us signed a paper and exchanged information so we could get more organized and stay connected since the board seems to never send letters and post notices about meetings the day off. The bylaws state that we should receive through mail notice at least 15 days before the meeting. However, they have never done this. In fact, we only learned about the meeting through neighbors that got fines and were asked to appear. Unfortunately, many residents have never taking interest in these meetings (as they were not being affected) and these people, every year, just re-elect themselves (I'm assuming) because no one shows up to vote.

I have a question, when they hold elections, is there a certain minimum number of members that need to be present to vote? The bylaws only say they shall be elected during the annual meeting and it should be no less than 2 no more than 5. However, it does not mention if there is a minimum of members needed when voting. I sent an e-mail today to the property management asking for the names of the current board (although I already know them) and when the annual meeting is usually held and it went unanswered. I want to start having proof that they are non-responsive when its not convenient for them.

Tomorrow I plan to write letters and perhaps knock on doors to seek support and encourage a way we can all stay connected and informed. It seems that a big factor here is the lack of knowledge of how these things work or even awareness of the many things the Board is doing. Even the people on the violation committee told us that we need to get involved because there is some questionable stuff happening with this board and that even THEY are feeling the friction with the Board when they ask them to do the correct thing.

I truly appreciate your help more than you can believe!

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkW18 on 10/18/2019 9:19 PM
OP,

You could take the door behind Melissa, OR you could take the door behind Tim.

I strongly suggest the door behind Tim.

LOL! People are unbelievable.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkW18 on 10/18/2019 9:19 PM
OP,

You could take the door behind Melissa, OR you could take the door behind Tim.

I strongly suggest the door behind Tim.

Mark,

If you have an issue with what I posted, let me know.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM

In the meeting, 50 of us signed a paper and exchanged information so we could get more organized and stay connected since the board seems to never send letters and post notices about meetings the day off.

Good. This could be your base if you decide to replace board members in the future.

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM

The bylaws state that we should receive through mail notice at least 15 days before the meeting. However, they have never done this.

Notice through the mail of General membership meetings is typical.
Notice through the mail of Board meetings is not.
You should verify what type of meetings this notice requirement is for.

Typically, board meetings might simply be mentioned in the newsletter, posted on a bulletin board or a web site. This tends to comply with any notice requirements for board meetings.

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM

Unfortunately, many residents have never taking interest in these meetings (as they were not being affected) and these people, every year, just re-elect themselves (I'm assuming) because no one shows up to vote.

That is typical for most, if not all, HOAs.

Those who have served on the board call this membership apathy.

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM

I have a question, when they hold elections, is there a certain minimum number of members that need to be present to vote?

Yes. This is called a quorum.
The required number for a quorum should be in your governing documents.
If your documents are silent, then it will be in the applicable statutes.

FL Chapter 720 Applicable to HOAs (not condominiums)

Florida Not For Profit Corporation Act Applicable if your Association is a incorporated as a non for profit (most are but check to be sure).

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM

I sent an e-mail today to the property management asking for the names of the current board (although I already know them) and when the annual meeting is usually held and it went unanswered. I want to start having proof that they are non-responsive when its not convenient for them.

Keep in mind that your Board might not be aware that the MC is not being responsive.
I'd also give it 2 weeks before determining that they are unresponsive (vs. simply being slow to respond).

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM

Tomorrow I plan to write letters and perhaps knock on doors to seek support and encourage a way we can all stay connected and informed. It seems that a big factor here is the lack of knowledge of how these things work or even awareness of the many things the Board is doing.

This is what I did.
you need to be very careful when doing things like this.
You don't want to be on the wrong side of a defamation law suit.

Make sure facts are there. Stick to the facts. Don't embellish. Don't editorialize. Don't have emotions enter into your writing. This will help demonstrate that you are concerned about the issues and it's not a personality conflict.

Provide the basis for your decisions (links or quotes from the governing document, applicable statute, board minutes, etc.) so the reader can independently verify what you are saying is correct.

Remember to thank the board for serving (as you said, most members aren't involved). The individuals are likely good people but don't fully know the job or can't devote the time the job requires.

Encourage others to exercise their vote and perhaps run for a seat on the board.

Hope this helps,

Tim

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

AriesK, I understand you are somewhat 'off-put' by Melissa's post; you also indicated you have read a section of your governing documents.

However, her third paragraph offers sound advice: you should read your documents in their entirety, even though your immediate situation may not be specifically addressed or may not seem to be addressed. You will find information is scattered in the documents, the section(s) you read on elections may only be 80% of the verbiage on the subject, the other 20% may be elsewhere.

I suggest you and the others read through your documents before you contact an attorney, you will be much better prepared to understand the rationale questions you may be asked and the information/interpretation you may be given.

Also, obtain the services of an attorney who specializes in property owner association law--a real estate attorney may not have the expertise you are in need of. Also, do not rely on the brother-in-law of your third cousin (even though the rate per hour may be attractive) as he or she may not be well grounded in property owner association matters.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Sorry, I left a word out of the previous post--

AriesK, I understand you are somewhat 'off-put' by Melissa's post; you also indicated you have read a section of your governing documents.

However, her third paragraph offers sound advice: you should read your documents in their entirety, even though your immediate situation may not be specifically addressed or may not seem to be addressed. You will find information is scattered in the documents, the section(s) you read on elections may only be 80% of the verbiage on the subject, the other 20% may be elsewhere.

I suggest you and the others read through your documents before you contact an attorney, you will be much better prepared to understand the rationale behind questions you may be asked and the information/interpretation you may be given.

Also, obtain the services of an attorney who specializes in property owner association law--a real estate attorney may not have the expertise you are in need of. Also, do not rely on the brother-in-law of your third cousin (even though the rate per hour may be attractive) as he or she may not be well grounded in property owner association matters.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Funny... You can't resolve your HOA's issues by reading your documents? Really? Sorry but that is EXACTLY how you do it! Guess how I fixed my HOA? Bringing the documents to each and every meeting and referencing them. You had a question or wanted something... "Let's check what the rules say".

It is the thinking of straying away from the documents that you get issues. You want organization you go to the place where it is spelled out and tells you what to do. You don't like what they say? You then follow the requirements to get them changed. The power is within your own HOA to do what they want to be ruled by. Not an outside source. The city/state/federal governments have their own set of rules to follow. They don't follow your HOA's.

As far as what door I am standing behind it's either going to be a prison door to Tim's door...

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkW18 on 10/18/2019 9:19 PM
OP,

You could take the door behind Melissa, OR you could take the door behind Tim.

I strongly suggest the door behind Tim.

Mark,

I misread what you wrote.

Sorry about my earlier posting.

Tim

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Like I did, I also think that Melissa misread what you wrote as well.

You were simply telling the OP, Aries, that two choices were offered and gave an opinion on which one to follow.

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Excellent advice! It's amazing how many people sign a document when they puchasing a house indicating that have received and read the CC&Rs and agree to abide by them, yet when they move in they exhibit behavior that's totally contrary to what the document contains.

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 10/19/2019 9:08 AM

Would you mind sharing with all of us here, that specific documents that EVERYONE signed at closing stating that have read the CCRs and that they agree to abide by them. I truly would love to see it, because I have never seen one in many years of reviewing loans.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

There are in some HOA's I believe heard others mention Florida, that have some kind of "form". Think it's basically when becoming a board member for "ethical" reasons. Each HOA varies of course.

No I agree there isn't a "form" one signs moving into a HOA. Which think would be a helpful thing if there were. Basically when you buy the house you become a member.

Former HOA President

NpB (Arizona)
Posts: 605

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkW18 on 10/19/2019 10:49 AM

Posted By NpB on 10/19/2019 9:08 AM

Arizona Revised Statutes 33-1260 A1(h)

MarkW18
Posts: 1,290

Posted:

That's the first I have seen that a state has put into their statues that requirement. Now I need to review an Arizona loan to see that there is a form and it is signed by a purchaser. I also notice the statue is for condos.

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/19/2019 6:06 AM

Notice through the mail of General membership meetings is typical.
Notice through the mail of Board meetings is not.
You should verify what type of meetings this notice requirement is for.

Typically, board meetings might simply be mentioned in the newsletter, posted on a bulletin board or a web site. This tends to comply with any notice requirements for board meetings.

Under Article IX - Meeting of Members Section 3 - "Notice of meetings". It says that members shall receive written notice of each meeting of the members at least 15 days. I can tell you I have not seen any letter in my e-mail in regards to ANY meeting in a while. Just two weeks ago I noticed there was a very small bulletin board at one of the entrances in the complex. I was in awe because I had never seen it and couldn't believed I had missed it all these years! There was a letter about a meeting with the committee of violations. The next day when I passed, the whole BOARD was gone. Turns out they pulled out that board the day of the meeting and took it off that same day. I should mention when I went to the meeting I took my 25 year old original bylaws which have obviously been amended and other things added. I had no idea you could not get a digital copy of the additions, and would have to pay to get them. Which I plan on doing next week.
(I should also mention we have two associations, a master one and our neighborhood association. This was also new to me)

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/19/2019 6:06 AM

Yes. This is called a quorum.
The required number for a quorum should be in your governing documents.
If your documents are silent, then it will be in the applicable statutes.

Our bylaws say 1/3 of the votes (out of 450 units) constitutes a quorum. It says "If not present, the members are entitled to vote thereat shall have power to adjourn the meeting from time to time, without notice other than announcement at the meeting until a quorum as aforesaid shall be present or be represented". So they have to basically keep putting it off until they have enough quorum? But what if they never reach that quorum? I also wonder if there has been changes made to these original bylaws, which is why I really want to get the additions they have made over the last 25 years.

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/19/2019 6:06 AM

Keep in mind that your Board might not be aware that the MC is not being responsive.
I'd also give it 2 weeks before determining that they are unresponsive (vs. simply being slow to respond).

In our meeting with the Violations committee, this was basically the determination we all came to. The Violation Committee does not communicate with Management, the Board does things behind the Violation Committes back. Many people that showed up to the meeting had asked for extensions or corrected their violations and apparently Management had no idea, even though they had been e-mailed or been told. It was really eye opening to see the disorganization of it all. I should mention that the meeting with Violations Committee was supposed to be thirty minutes, it went on for three hours. The Board also was supposed to meet with members afterwards but they refused to. I think they had never seen about 3 dozen homeowners show up so .... passionate.

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/19/2019 6:06 AM

This is what I did.
you need to be very careful when doing things like this.
You don't want to be on the wrong side of a defamation law suit.

Make sure facts are there. Stick to the facts. Don't embellish. Don't editorialize. Don't have emotions enter into your writing. This will help demonstrate that you are concerned about the issues and it's not a personality conflict.

Provide the basis for your decisions (links or quotes from the governing document, applicable statute, board minutes, etc.) so the reader can independently verify what you are saying is correct.

Remember to thank the board for serving (as you said, most members aren't involved). The individuals are likely good people but don't fully know the job or can't devote the time the job requires.

Encourage others to exercise their vote and perhaps run for a seat on the board.

There has been ALOT of rumors of course. However, I do have first hand knowledge of many QUESTIONABLE things, like a board member that rented a house that was empty because of foreclosure, to which the renters paid her directly. Now, I am not sure if that is legal or not but I would think the bank is the owner, not the association?. Also a Board Member has made it clear to several people, including someone on the violations committee that she has it "out" for one particular neighbor.
Regardless, as you said, I would like to stick to the facts. For now I have decided to "police" the board members homes when I go home. I pass by and see if there is any violation and if there is, I take a picture from my car. Because it is my proof that the enforcement is selective. The guy who runs the violations committee chuckled when I asked him if he would be sending himself a violation notice or fine to himself for blocking a speed sign with a tree he planted. Which I had a picture of.
What I will stick to is my main concerns
-The aesthetic of the neighborhood being ruined. People are removing ALL their grass and just pouring cement everywhere, due to the violations they have received. The houses are starting to look ugly without any front yards at all and the board seems to just be accepting any and all changes without any standards or consideration of the "uniformed look" of the neighborhood.
- The lack of order and communication between the violations committee, the board & management company. (They blame each other)
- The selective enforcement that seems to be more than obvious, I was getting letters that I needed to paint my fence, while my neighbor, who is intimate friends with a board member, has never painted his. Even worse, the fences connect.

Another question, assuming the quorum isn't met because of membership apathy, how are these people re-electing themselves over and over?

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By BillH10 on 10/19/2019 7:47 AM
Sorry, I left a word out of the previous post--

AriesK, I understand you are somewhat 'off-put' by Melissa's post; you also indicated you have read a section of your governing documents.

However, her third paragraph offers sound advice: you should read your documents in their entirety, even though your immediate situation may not be specifically addressed or may not seem to be addressed. You will find information is scattered in the documents, the section(s) you read on elections may only be 80% of the verbiage on the subject, the other 20% may be elsewhere.

I suggest you and the others read through your documents before you contact an attorney, you will be much better prepared to understand the rationale behind questions you may be asked and the information/interpretation you may be given.

Also, obtain the services of an attorney who specializes in property owner association law--a real estate attorney may not have the expertise you are in need of. Also, do not rely on the brother-in-law of your third cousin (even though the rate per hour may be attractive) as he or she may not be well grounded in property owner association matters.

I tend to bet put off by sarcasm, lack of consideration and down right rudeness. Not everyone that comes here to post is on the same level of knowledge or has dedicated their life to HOA's. In my case, I have never had to look at any of these documents because I was a child when they bought the house. I am now older and my parents are elderly people and they should not have to be stressed out by all of this. I rent and so for me its way easier than a homeowner. It just was not necessary in my opinion.

To your point however, dusting off the bylaws we got 25 years ago was the first thing I did even before I posted here. I will admit some of the jargon can be confusing but I am understanding more and more as I read. I also need to get a copy of the changes they've made over the years (I honestly thought these documents would be scanned and available through e-mail. Especially if you were one of the original buyers. They are not, so I will purchase them next week now that I know that its not uncommon to have to do that.)

For now I want to learn more on how people can be nominated and the correct way to vote these people out and vote people in AND get the neighborhood involved/informed (maybe by creating a Facebook community page or email list). We have someone on the violations committee who seems to be very ethical, correct and also sympathetic and understanding person. I feel he would be the right person to be on the Board. He cares about the neighborhood and is frankly in awe and shock of some of the things the Board and Management company do. Our elections are coming up in December I believe, and so I want to get people informed and involved.

If we cannot vote these folks out (unless everyone decided to vote for them), I definitely plan to contact an attorney.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Aries

When there is no Quorum for the Annual Meeting, no business including BOD Elections can be held. I this case the existing BOD stays in place until next election time.

The fact that you asked this question shows you know very little about hw a association is operated and this lack of knowledge might tainting your beliefs how things are being done.

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/19/2019 8:10 AM
Funny... You can't resolve your HOA's issues by reading your documents? Really? Sorry but that is EXACTLY how you do it! Guess how I fixed my HOA? Bringing the documents to each and every meeting and referencing them. You had a question or wanted something... "Let's check what the rules say".

It is the thinking of straying away from the documents that you get issues. You want organization you go to the place where it is spelled out and tells you what to do. You don't like what they say? You then follow the requirements to get them changed. The power is within your own HOA to do what they want to be ruled by. Not an outside source. The city/state/federal governments have their own set of rules to follow. They don't follow your HOA's.

As far as what door I am standing behind it's either going to be a prison door to Tim's door...

You seem to intent on misunderstanding and then misinterpreting me and appear to be under the assumption that all "documents" in HOA's that have existed in the history of ever are written to take into account just about every specific detail and cover any possible contingency in the future. They are not, and it doesn't take a genius, a law degree, or being a HOA president to realize this simple basic fact in contracts or legal documents.

Aside from that I already explained that I have the ORIGINAL by-laws from 25 years ago, and therefore I need to get the documents that have been added and amended since then. Otherwise its pointless to think I'm in the right with old bylaws that have been amended. HENCE, my question of asking if it was legal or normal for them to charge me for these documents (to which you were shocked and appalled that I wanted "copies" for free, as if we do not live in the 21st century and scanned copies MAY exist). Guess what? that issue also wasn't addressed on the bylaws, so I guess sometimes you do have to ask around to kind of get your bearings or a more informed answer. Now I know it is perfectly normal for them to charge and will gladly get them and distribute SCANNED copies for free to fellow Homeowners.

I plan to read all the documents but understand that legal jargon can sometimes be worded in a way that may be difficult to understand. Not only that there are loops or can be TOO BROAD or TOO SPECIFIC, which is why I feel a lawyer should read through them and be an advisor. I have NO problem sticking to the documents, doing my due diligence and getting involved and going through whatever process is necessary to change things if need be. Not once have I opposed to that or said that I cant "resolve" any issues at all with the documents. The Board has a lawyer to make THEM understand, so I find it perfectly normal to ask questions, even if I had read EVERY document available.

If you cared to have understood that just 2 weeks ago I had NO knowledge of any HOA process or was even involved in any of it, then you would understand why I came in here asking to see if someone could guide me or point me in the right direction. Regardless of how shocking or ridiculous my questions seem to you, I came in here so I could GAIN knowledge, not to be patronized.

You should also know that while the HOA's have their own set of rules they CANNOT violate city/state/federal ordinances. Being informed of those or speaking to those who are, wouldn't hurt. My state at least also has several resources in case it should get to that. Knowing that ALSO never hurts.

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By NpB on 10/19/2019 9:08 AM

Excellent advice! It's amazing how many people sign a document when they puchasing a house indicating that have received and read the CC&Rs and agree to abide by them, yet when they move in they exhibit behavior that's totally contrary to what the document contains.

While that is true, there were no CC&Rs 25 years ago when the house was purchased by my parents. We have the original by-laws and there has been amendments, rules and regulations added since then. We have never needed them because we tend to abide by the rules, and when we did get a violation noticed, we requested and extension of time to allow the completion of an insurance process to finish so that we could fix the violation. To which they said would be fine.
Just a week after we received the fine tripled times TEN!
So my issue isn't about having to follow the rules, my issue is with the lack of management, lack of response and lack communication between the Management company AND the Board.
I should not have to pay an outrageous fee, when I followed the rules. It also was not an isolated incident as over 25 people showed up and about 75% also had asked for extensions or fixed the violation and informed them, yet still receive the fine.
The purpose of this violation committee is to keep up the value of the neighborhood and aesthetics of it, and ironically, it is having causing the problem they were trying to prevent. Which is another one of my big concerns.
This and SEVERAL other things, has led me to actually get informed, learn and now get involved with all related HOA matters in my community.

AriesK (Florida)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/19/2019 5:34 PM
Aries

When there is no Quorum for the Annual Meeting, no business including BOD Elections can be held. I this case the existing BOD stays in place until next election time.

The fact that you asked this question shows you know very little about hw a association is operated and this lack of knowledge might tainting your beliefs how things are being done.

You are absolutely right. I have very LITTLE knowledge but I am trying and willing to learn. Maybe I am trying to bite more than I can chew.

I read in the bylaws that our elections are by secret ballot and anyone receiving the largest numbers of votes shall be elected. Through more reading I read in a different section (under meetings) that "if the quorum is not met then they can adjourn the meeting from time to time, without notice and until a quorum as aforesaid (1/3) shall be present or be represented."

So all that left me wondering if the quorum applied to only meetings or elections too. And then also the question after that "what happens if the quorum is never met".

My current belief or critique is more about homeowners taking the correct steps to ask for extensions or fix their violations and informing the association/violation committee and still be receiving fines and letters. (one example, a neighbor received letters that they had to remove the red painted door IMMEDIATELY from his home. He never had a red door, he took pictures of his home and informed them they were mistaken. A couple of weeks later he received the maximum allowed fine. This was the case with the MAJORITY of the 25+ people that showed up).

Aside from that, the Board homeowners have SEVERAL violations and the rules are not enforced on them. They get to install and put up things that are constantly being rejected to other homeowners. They park on their lawns and sidewalks and I can assure you that they do not receive violation notices or fines.

So seeing all this has made me wonder, when are elections, how do they take place, and what do I need to do.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

My riding in on a white horse and rescuing the HOA wasn't a sarcastic comment. It's a reality one. Seen way too many people who want to "save" people mentality only to be hit in the face with reality. The hardest change one can ever make is a "cultural" change. That is the exact change your dealing with when it comes to HOA's.

Are you an owner or a renter? Thought I read you were a renter? Wasn't clear.

Improving your HOA isn't a single person's responsibility. It's everyone's. Your dealing with something called "apathy" and "NIMBY" colliding. No one is interested in their HOA until those 2 things collide. Then it's "Oh no the HOA is doing it all wrong..."

Your not the first one to come here with these big ideas. Most of us here have had them too. I think most of us would look back and laugh at pre-HOA selves. No doubt many of us here have made much headway and success in their HOA's. We just know that we didn't get here without blood, sweat, and tears. Our advice is given in that vain.

It's best to go one bite at a time to eat the monster. You can't get there without being well versed in your CC&R's and Articles of Incorporation. Start with them before you begin to change other's minds....

Former HOA President

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Concerning the Notice:

The section you identified is for the general membership meeting (i.e. the annual meeting).

It's possible that the bulletin board only goes up to provide notice and is taken down when not needed.

Concerning the quorum:

That section of your Bylaws is superseded by statute. see FL 720.306(1)(a)

Per that statute, it is 30%.

30% of 450 = 135 (typically in person or by proxy)

If quorum is not reached, they may, but are not required to, suspend the meeting to another time or date to try and achieve a quorum.

If no quorum is reached, the existing board members remain on the board. This is per statute, which says in part:

Each director shall hold office for the term to which he or she is elected or appointed and until his or her successor has been elected . . .

see: FL 617.0806

Concerning policing the neighborhood:

Rather then policing, you might want to volunteer to serve on the violations committee. You would see the issues that they are facing and perhaps be the one to close the communications gap.

Concerning obtaining copies of the governing documents:

Good idea. Make sure you get copies of both Associations (the master association and your local association). Read and understand. Check the statutes to see if a section (like the quorum section you cited earlier) have been over ridden. Ask questions to those things the you aren't positive of the meaning.

Here is some general info (as I already provided you links to the statutes):

How to read a Statute from NOLO press

1A GUIDE TO READING, INTERPRETING AND APPLYING STATUTES from Georgetown University Law Center

Best Practices Reports From the Foundation for Community Association Research - pdf booklets on many topics of HOA/COA concerns.

Community Association Network Florida Page Lots of free information that is state specific. Was (may still be) a sponsor of HOATalk (which is how I found them).

HOA-USA FL page Some good free information. Members get access to more info. I am not a member.

What's Involved With Serving on the Board of a Homeowners' Association from NOLO

Florida HOA Laws and Resources

Not intended to overload you. Just giving you some more tools for your tool chest.

Hope this helps,

Tim

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By AriesK on 10/18/2019 11:45 PM
I have a question, when they hold elections, is there a certain minimum number of members that need to be present to vote? The bylaws only say they shall be elected during the annual meeting and it should be no less than 2 no more than 5. However, it does not mention if there is a minimum of members needed when voting. I sent an e-mail today to the property management asking for the names of the current board (although I already know them) and when the annual meeting is usually held and it went unanswered. I want to start having proof that they are non-responsive when its not convenient for them.

You're on the right track as far as getting involved and gathering like-minded homeowners together in order to replace enough board members so that changes can be made in how the association is run.
As for your questions, there does need to be a certain number of homeowners present to conduct business at the annual meeting and election. It's called a "quorum" of owners and is usually expressed as a percentage of owners and defined somewhere in your governing documents. If your documents are truly silent on what constitutes a quorum, the Florida HOA law (Chapter 720 of the Florida Statutes) says the number is 30%.

The minimum number of directors for any Florida not-for-profit corporation, such as most HOAs and Condos, is 3 and that takes precedence over anything in your bylaws that says different.

There's an entire section in the statute that says the owners have the right to inspect the official records of the assocaition and defines what those are. Contact information for EVERY member of the association, including the board members, MUST be given to any owner who submits a request in writing asking for it. I'd ask for the identity of all directors currently on the Board of Directors, and copies of all meeting notices for the last 5 years. If those things are not provided to you within 10 business days, then FS 720.303(5)(b) says you are entitled to $50 per day for each day they're not provided (for up to 10 days). Note that FS 720.303(5)(a) says they must respond, "within 10 business days after receipt of a written request submitted by certified mail, return receipt requested." AN EMAIL IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. If in doubt about sending it to the president or someone else on the board, you can send the written request to the association's Registered Agent which you can find online, if you don't know who it is, from the Florida Dept. of State's website at http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/ByName That website will also reveal who's on the Board of Directors.

If responding to your inquiries isn't convenient for them then they're going to have to make it convenient because they have a duty to do so.

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