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MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
I tried looking on treads before posting but there are no current ones on this topic....

I am the president of a small hoa board in Pennsylvania Last week we had our. board election and annual meeting. . It was the first time in many years there were three seats and four candidates

After the election I asked our PM for the tally of votes for each candidate but she said she would not give out this information. I won but still want to see the final tally. Two board members who were not running went into another room to count them with the PM and then she.came out
and announced the results by our names and terms.

Should this info be made available to homeowners and board members who want to see the tally results? I tried searching pa condo law and our gov docs but it is not addressed.

Thank you.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
In my PA HOA, the ballots and proxies are signed by the owners. Anyone looking at the completed forms can easily see who voted for A, B, or C.

These ballots/proxies are not made available to anyone. Not homeowners. Not board members.

If we are going to have more candidates than seats (hasn't happened in a long time), we invite an outsider to come in and act as the judge of elections, with responsibility to validate eligibility, count votes, and report on the outcome.

Before the election, all the board members know who the judge of elections is, and if there are any objections, someone else is chosen. If things are highly contentious, we might have 3 judges instead of 1.

The more likely case is that we don't have enough candidates. When that happens, we don't even count the votes.

Other states have a more complex system where the ballots do not include individual names of the voters. More stringent outcome where no one gets to see who voted for A, B, or C - not even a judge of elections.

Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
If not addressed anywhere, I say put it up for a Board decision at your next meeting and then do whatever is agreed. If there's an actual reason to keep the tally a secret, then PM rep should explain so the Board can consider it when they decide. And PM should then do whatever the Board directs in regard to tallying and making the results available . . . at that point, it's not up to the PM.

I can't think of any reason that the tally should not be made available to anyone who asks. The tally could even be placed in the meeting minutes for the annual meeting, so the question doesn't even have to be asked or answered . . . would help to legitimize the results of the election a bit as well.
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaureenM1 on 09/23/2019 6:56 AM
I tried looking on treads before posting but there are no current ones on this topic....

I am the president of a small hoa board in Pennsylvania Last week we had our. board election and annual meeting. . It was the first time in many years there were three seats and four candidates

After the election I asked our PM for the tally of votes for each candidate but she said she would not give out this information. I won but still want to see the final tally. Two board members who were not running went into another room to count them with the PM and then she.came out
and announced the results by our names and terms.

Should this info be made available to homeowners and board members who want to see the tally results? I tried searching pa condo law and our gov docs but it is not addressed.

Thank you.

Isn't that information required by law to be made available to owners? Particularly a president should definitely receive that info.

This is nuts.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaureenM1 on 09/23/2019 6:56 AM
I tried looking on treads before posting but there are no current ones on this topic....

I am the president of a small hoa board in Pennsylvania Last week we had our. board election and annual meeting. . It was the first time in many years there were three seats and four candidates

After the election I asked our PM for the tally of votes for each candidate but she said she would not give out this information. I won but still want to see the final tally. Two board members who were not running went into another room to count them with the PM and then she.came out
and announced the results by our names and terms.

Should this info be made available to homeowners and board members who want to see the tally results? I tried searching pa condo law and our gov docs but it is not addressed.

Thank you.

Why were the counts not conducted in the open in front of the all the owners in attendance, and WHY did the board secretary fail to do their job?
\
Your PM needs to hand over those records PRONTO, you are entitled to them as those records belong to the association not the PM. The tally for us is read at the meeting and recorded as official record, they are not published in the newsletter, but are made available to anyone that asks.
MarkW18
Posts: 1,290
Posted:
Pennsylvania, like New York, is not an OPEN Meeting state.
MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
The pm said that she and the secretary with one other board member would count the votes. She came back after open discussion and announced the 3. Year terms and 2 year term and thanked the board member who lost for her time on the board. She said the votes were close and that is all she said. This was the first year we didn’t have our board attorney at the meeting.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our PM and the BOD Secretary are our Election Monitors/vote counters.

Only one in 5 elections did we have more candidates than open BOD positions. As the BOD has quite a few proxies naming them as the holder, they were able to throw their votes around. In our only contested election, the BOD used the proxies to be sure one person they did not like (me) was not elected. The following year I was nominated from the floor and I replied that I do not have any wish to serve with the present BOD. The follow year the main folks on the BOD I could not have worked with were rolling off the BOD and again I was nominated from the floor. I accepted and was the top vote getter. In the last election, I was scheduled to roll off the BOD (2 year terms). We had 3 positions open and only one announced candidate. The President of the BOD publically at the meeting, asked if those rolling off would re-run. Others encouraged us to. One would not, two of us said yes. That put us at 3 candidates for 3 positions. Back on the BOD again........LOL
PaulJ6
Posts: 990
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MaureenM1 on 09/23/2019 10:12 AM
The pm said that she and the secretary with one other board member would count the votes. She came back after open discussion and announced the 3. Year terms and 2 year term and thanked the board member who lost for her time on the board. She said the votes were close and that is all she said. This was the first year we didn’t have our board attorney at the meeting.

That's absurd. Fire the PM.
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
I suppose you could fire the PM . . . or maybe just a quick, reasonable discussion between all Board Members and PM will achieve the desired results. If other Board Members agree that the tally should be made public, or at minimum known to all Board Members, then that is what should be done by the PM. If PM refuses after that or if all Board Members do not agree, then there are likely deeper issues.

Right now, it sounds as if the OP requested the info from the PM and the PM refused to supply it (individually to the OP). If instead it was a Board decision/direction to tally and release the results, then things may be different.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
The OP said she was the President. If so, the BOD needs a "come to jesus" meeting with the PM.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Maureen,
So I am a little confused. You said that 2 other board members who were not running help tally the votes. If this is the case and they know the exact numbers why should you and your newly elected members not be provided the same information. Makes no sense what so ever to me. In my Ca. Elections we always had the Inspector of Elections (Sometimes the PM and the last few years a paid State voting official) announce the winners and their totals for everyone in attendance to hear. We then followed up with a communication to all members.

This should be correct asap. I guess another question is why would the other 2 members not tell you? Have you asked them?
MaureenM1 (PA)
Posts: 344
Posted:
I will ask my board when I see her. I didn’t want to put it in a text or email. I only speak to the other board member at meetings. He was hoping I wouldn’t be re-elected. Lol.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Anyone who takes the time and consideration to read the candidates statements and vote and then send the ballot in deserves to understand the results.

I am assuming you did not ask who voted for who when you requested the information. That should never be done and even if you are not running for an open seat you should use inner envelopes that are not labeled or numbers for privacy.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
Everything should be done to protect the secrecy of the voter. It sounds like there was adequate protection of the ballots and accuracy of the counting. This need not become an issue unless the vote is disputed.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
In some states the vote tabulation must, by law, be announced when the inspector(s) of election bring the results to the board and states them. They also must be posted and, of cours be in he ann. mtg. minutes.

In some states too, e.g., CA, owners may watch th inspectors tabulate the ballots. I'm surprised that there's no protocol in PA.

It seem too that in some states, votes actually sign their ballots.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
A lot depends on a particular's states laws. In Florida all election materials, including ballots, have to be retained for 1 year and be made available for inspection to the owners. Florida HOA law does not mandate secret ballots. If the HOA's bylaws or election procedures allow for anonymous ballots then they can be used, but they're not required in an HOA. Condos are different since the statute spells out exactly how to conduct an election.

There was one case where a couple of homeowners voted in an "anonymous" election and signed their ballots. The board decided not to count those ballots. The voters challenged the election results (those 2 votes would have changed the outcome) arbitrator ruled that the voters' will was paramount and since the signatures did not violate that, the ballots were valid and should still be counted even though printed instructions on the ballots said, "Do not sign your ballot". Additionally, the arbitrator ruled that in an election, any anonymity was for the benefit of the homeowners and they were entitled to waive that anonymity.

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