Do we need to provide a members list upon request?

Dean:

I am not sure on the name and addresses, but I wouldn't under any circumstances provide email and phone lists. Some people have their phone numbers unlisted and with all the spamming going on I would never supply an email list.

Dean,
We distribute a little phone book for our condo. As far as I know it hasn't been violated.

It it happens I would much rather continue publishing the phone book. You maybe could put some kind of restrictive clause such as many companies do in e-mail originating from there offices.

But, to me, this sort of thing is a private peeve of mine. In a collection of people when some one steps outside the community and takes advantage of knowledge for personal gain, we tend to turn around and punish the innocent. The culprit here is the people violating the the rights of others. In good faith, apparently, your board distributed a list with members names and numbers. It is a no brainer to consider this information for the betterment of the community and it is a nice little benifit for the members. I would not stop using the list, but I would do everything I could to inform the members that that list is confidential and any use of this list to promote any commercial or private business will not be tolerated and if necessary, I would have the board take action necessary to protect this list, by the use of heavy fines and court action.

Check with an attorney on how to do this. Also, I have an inkling that some folks may protest to much about nothing. We all get phone calls and mail unsolicted, trash it and don't worry about it. If anyone wants to know your phone number or address, the county will provide it at no coast.
It may seem more personal in your case but it really isn't, you are just a name for a company to get more business. If you do know who is doing this have them sit down and have a talk with the Board. They have an obligation to the harmony of the community.

I agree with RobertR. I would be very suspicious of any group that tries to squelch honest dissent. Only when all issues are openly discussed by all homeowners will the best course of action be decided.

I don't see what your problem is. If they feel strongly enough for a cause, diligent persons could put together the list by visiting county records, or even going door to door, . Names and addresses are not sacred anymore, if they ever were.
You have the same list to use to support your agenda. If your agenda is honest, and you can dispute their statements with facts what are you afraid of? Although where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Harold

Lets think about this for a moment.

The problem as stated was the list was used for some kind of illegal ventures. Can the Board legally stop MEMBERS from using this information?
I would bet they can't and besides the cat is out of the bag. The list is there. Now the Board can not make the list vanish, so the problem seems to be that the Board considers dissent some how illegal. It is not, if you are in a condo or HOA, at least not yet. I know folks have different opinions and some of this is caused from where you sit on the pecking table. But, people can solve their differences and if you are one that wants it your way or the highway, best to just move on and let the reasonable people get on with running the organization......bottom line!

I don't think the HOA should release the information about members names or any personal information. They should provide contact information for the board members who is supposed to handle the HOA business on the behalf of the general membership.

It's good for a HOA to keep up to date with the owner's status and current addresses. Most HOA's are incapable or so disorganized that isn't possible. It's not necessarily a requirement a HOA member gives a forwarding address to their HOA. It's the HOA's address that is the legal address for contact anyways.

I don't think a HOA should provide ANY general membership information at all to any member. If you in a HOA you do have a right to know how many are members but NOT their names or contact information. You shouldn't even be able to see how much anyone owes the HOA. That information should be confidential between the owner that's behind, board members, and the MC/Treasurer.

If a member wants to contact a homeowne (who is a member) then they should either look that information up in the phone book or go around the neighborhood writing down each address themselves. The actual address of the HOA property is the ONLY one that should be addressed.

There is no real need to provide a members list. If you have an issue, then present it to the board who can do something about it. There's waayy tooo much owner apathy out there that contacting those members is a waste of time. If there really is something going wrong in the HOA, enough interested members will do something about it. They don't need to drag everyone in that just isn't interested or cares.

Dean,

Very interesting. So have you had your Sept. meeting yet? Is this member trying to get the rules changed or just complaining?

Regarding misinformation, at your meeting, on your web site and in the next newsletter maybe you could remind the membership to review the governing documents for themselves.

Good luck.

Tracy, we had our September meeting last Saturday. The member in question was so out of order that the meeting had to be adjourned early. We had our club attorney present, who reminded the membership that we could not discuss the lawsuit. She gave a very brief explaination about the lawsuit, and reminded the membership to review the governing documents. Members were asked to call the attorney if they had any questions regarding the lawsuit.

Unfortunately, we were not able to give our committee reports, etc, because this member dominated the meeting. Our president did not ask that he be removed, and eventually ended the meeting. The next meeting will be conducted a lot differently, opening the floor to the members during the new business section. We will also have security present to escort any member who has been repeatedly ruled out of order. It's unfortunate that just a few people can ruin a meeting for the rest of the membership. BTW, we typically have 150-200 members present for our meetings.

Dean

It is a big deal to withold addresses and names of members. That's because not every member is interested or cares about their HOA and don't want to be involved. They just want to pay their dues and be done with it. Members getting letters in the mail describing issues going on with their HOA is dragging other people into other people's "drama". I don't necessarily want to care if you built a fence and the board told you no. If it isn't in my yard or next to it, why should I fight your battle for it?

I know shocking coming from a former HOA President isn't it? You would think I would be the first to promote free communication amongst all the members/owners wouldn't you? However, after dealing for years with the "Apathetic" homeowner, I see their point. If they truly wanted to be involved in their HOA, they would do it. They don't want to know what's going on with their HOA until something involves them personally or the dues hike/special assessment has to be made. I respect that. Others should to.

Since a HOA is a corporation and the members shareholders, it doesn't mean they have the right to access other shareholders information. When's the last time anyone here got a prospectus listing all the shareholders names and addresses? Stock changes hands so often there's no such real list of shareholders. Any given day that list can change.

You also have to remember that the letters these members may send out aren't always going to the deeded homeowner. They could be going to the renter or a member of the owner's family. They don't even have the right to vote or act on that member's behalf. However, they are now involved with the situation and they aren't even members of the HOA. Even though a member can very well go down the street and get addresses, they don't guarantee they are contacting the right people to be on their side.

As far as this person goes with the lawsuit issues. You may request a possible restraining order to be attached somehow. Your board may have to have a separate closed board meeting to discuss the case ONLY. The open meetings just say that it can not be discussed amongst an open forum. The BOD did the hiring of the attorney so the issue should stay between them at this point. Just let the membership know that there is a gag order and if they want part of the case and go to court with everyone, they sure can know what is going on. I am sure they won't want to know a thing if you tell them they may have to appear in court.

Dean,
Your initial post stated some unknown number of members were using this list to distribute mis-information to the other members and creating disorder in the communittee. To me that means going outside the laws of the association (illegal), in your opinion.

The more I read of this thread, the less I like what I am reading. Above you state the asssociation is non-responsive and a bunch of complainers. In you post to Tracy you stated your attendence at the Sept meeting was, I think two to three hundred. Another mention you made was a group of dissenters, now at the Sept meeting there was 1 disruptive member. Also your board is going to start hiring police/security to be at the meeting. Don't be suprised if someone don't sue you for having non-members at the meeting.

But to me I am more bothered by what you must expect this site to be. There are some smart cookies here and they don't always agree but their effort to provide a knowledgeable source of information to those seeking advice should not taken lightly. They are not dissenters and anti anything, as near as I can tell. If that is part of your problem, then I suggest you spend some time reading the postings on this site. Your board might want to start by identifying why you are having problems, be honest about it. This diruptive force you have in the community is not something that never happens. There are other ways of handling him other than calling in the police. For the price of the police a lawyer can tell you all kinds of ways to control him. But it seems as if he is not a Lonesome Dove, he has some support, you all better pay attention.

Melessa,
I don't know if there is anything you can say that would shock us.
You are a "whipper". I don't remember what that means but you are one. Maybe a Free Spirit, that's it, a Free Spirit.

Thanks Rich for the compliment. However, I do have to agree with Dean that you have posted responses that made Dean's situation more negative than it really is. Not every HOA is negative and a menance to society. It sounds like Dean's HOA is typical of how many successful HOA's run. He probably won't believe his HOA is successful but from what I read I see it.

I've held or attended a few meetings where security would be HIGHLY recommended. Matter of fact, I was physically ran out and attacked out of one myself! There's a line between what a HOA can do security wise and when it becomes a police matter. If a member is being disruptive and not letting business to be conducted, then they should be removed from the meeting. They are now tramping on the rights of the other members to be informed and business conducted. If you can't act professional at a meeting, then you shouldn't attend that meeting.

It sounds like this height issue is going to be a booger. Stand your ground. My standard advice still stands on this issue. You sue your HOA your suing yourself and your neighbors. Sounds like this guy will soon find out the pain in that. A point I wouldn't feel too bad bringing up...

To Dean and (us),
No I am not a member of the BOD nor do I live in an HOA as you would envision. My HOA encompasses the entire island and I am a member. The Condo I live in has it's own board. Lived here for 17 years and am active in both entities. Now, since you feel I am making wrong assumptions, I offer that information for you and (us)as fodder for your "assumption" mill.
This information is not given to start anything, I just feel you should know, becase you and (US) can get together and assume, therefore, I can't know what I am talking about because I am not a board member. Well, have at it my friend.

To me this is simple, names and addresses are public information, therefore they should not be witheld. Phone numbers and email addresses are different. If I really wanted to spend the time I could go around my neighborhood, get all the addresses of all the houses, then look them up online to see who owns them and publish my own database, that is all public info and the members should have a right to see it.

I'm just curious, where does everyone keep getting the idea that the people wanting the members list are using it to advertise their own business or product?

They are using it for association business, albeit board business that the BOD doesn't necessarily buy into.

Michele:

I didn't say they would utilize it for that purpose. I said I would not want my information in a directory (and stated it was my opinion).

The HOA (board) must keep record of the membership listing, the Deed Holder and address is a matter of public record, however as a homeowner would I want my information given out, and my answer was no.

With regards to Dean's question, is it mandatory for the HOA to give this document to another homeowner? The answer is no, it is not.

Since I live in a HOA that has something like 1700 units, all kinds, I have this to say. The HOA Ladies Club publishes a phone book at nominal cost. I believe you can opt out, if you like. There are some adds in there for service business, a little commercial ads, all the club and resort # , all emergency numbers and some local official numbers. I doubt there is many residents on the island that do not purchase this book and considerable money is collected. But everyone uses this phone book for social and island business. No problem, we also have the local phone book for the county/city and beyond. No problem. Recently we had a big tiff about the Web site posting members names and the same accusations flew back and forth about this directory at the Condo association I live in. Really it was much to do about nothing. Our condo requires a current address to be on file at the Regime Office. We have 65 units and I believe 65 units are posted in our directory by the board now. No problem.
I am just having a problem with explaining why the Board would have a problem with a member making use of this list to do Regime business. How in the world could the Board or anyone else get themselves in a position that would cause discontent among the rank and file. In this case in this thread, the list is referred to by some members, no one can say where they got the list, but there are more ways than stealing it and that seems evident. The problem is not the list, the problem is that some boards don't want the lists used in a certain manner that they don't like. That is the issue that needs to be addressed; why are these folks complaining. Right or wrong that is the issue. Remember many association have one open weeting a year, that is hardly conducive to sending the message, we want to hear from the membership (my condo). The HOA probably has eight or more OPEN minutes a year, and they publish a phone directory. I have never heard the Board complain about the directory and we have had our share of trials and tribulation. Right now, our HOA is in good hands and peace reigns, to my knowledge.

Speaking of "bologna," this about qualifies as "bologna" to me: "People who want the member's list of the HOA so they can "Reveal or promote" HOA business is full of bologna. They just want to bring people into their "Drama". "

I hate to sound exasperated, but at times reading your posts, Melissa, it gets tedious.

On the one hand you berate association members for not doing something proactive to get to the bottom of bad board leadership. You chastise them for not taking ownership of their own roles in the association.

Then you turn around and speak out of the other side of your mouth with a blanket statement like the above.

You state over and over and over again to posters and association members here that THEY are the HOA and the HOA is THEM. The HOA is the membership, which is each and every resident.

So if a resident wants to be proactive and address or communicate with the rest of the membership in the legal organization to which they all belong, they certainly have every right to do so, by virtue of them being an HOA member.

I've seen residents walk door-to-door in our 275-house neighborhood to get names and signatures on petitions face-to-face. Their "drama" or not, they are perfectly within the letter of the CC&Rs and by-laws to do such.

A resident doesn't HAVE to request a membership list, with addresses, on it from us, because EVERY year they get one when we send out the annual report, which includes a member/lot listing and the current status of the dues.

Now, I can't address the LEGAL aspects of states or locations outside of my own, but if a member requests the list, names and addresses (not phone #s or email), we can and do provide it. It's their list, not ours.

[in the particular door-to-door example above, the resident wanted to call a special meeting to vote on allowing above-ground pools. He had already put his up. He was told to take it down. He was trying to change the rules to keep it. He was well within his rights as a member, "drama" or not, to do so.

He wanted to make his case face-to-face to each resident, but he used the list as a check point to indicate to himself which residents he had spoken to and which he still need to meet with.

The petition to vote on the amendment passed, but the amendment itself failed. Had it passed, we would now be allowing above-ground pools. The RESIDENT MEMBERS would have spoken and we, as the BOD, would have had to respect that and allow the amendment. That's the nature of the beast.]

I never said that it isn't a members right to know the names and addresses of the other HOA members. It's just NOT something the MC or BOD should give out without permission from member themselves. The BOD/MC should have a complete list for themselves but not to provide it without the consent of the owner's on that list.

All the tools are there and available to know the names and addresses of members in the HOA for FREE. Phone books, property plats, calling the Tax assessor's office, or simply going door to door. In order for the HOA to provide this list would cost ALL the homeowner's money from the HOA's budget.

It would cost the HOA money to gather the members permission who are okay with their information being "distributed" and administrative costs. That means buying envelopes, paying someone to type the letters, stamps to mail out, time waiting for a response, making copies of the list to give to requesting members, and other possible costs. Plus that list will probable change once a month in some HOA's from property sales. These costs sound minor but to a HOA on a slim budget $50 dollars or more, can be a burden for each time they have to notify the membership of anything.

So yes, it's your right to get a list, but it's probably best you do it yourself if you want to get your message across. I was just warning that don't expect everyone you contact will be interested in your cause or want to be involved in their HOA period. I've had doors slammed in my face just for asking for a signature to modify our CC&R's to take out the Developer's name. I wasn't even a board member! With HOA, you get "Drama".

Yes, but with six you get eggroll!!!

You just answered my question from another post. Thank you.

According to Atty. Jay Harr, in SC, members are entitled to a members list upon request.

Now, what information is included, I won't know until I get it.

Or, they are using it to sabatoge the association. We had one who didn't ask for a list but she did go around the neighborhood tacking inflamatory letters containing false information to everyone's mailbox post.

Susan, you hijacked another thread and now you are trying to do it to this one.

Complaining to us about not being allowed to build a patio isn't going to change anything. If you want that patio so badly, get off the computer and find yourself an attorney who will help you appeal your case to your HOA.