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ReneeH5 (Texas)
Posts: 38
Posted:
We would like to have the rule "children under 18 must be accompanied by an adult over the age of 21". What is the restriction for your pool? Is this discrimination?
Thank you!
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Unless you live in age restricted community, the answer is YES, that is discrimination.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Google on {hud age limits pool}, and a number of sites come up saying that the rule you propose would be seen as unlawful discrimination against kids, translating to unlawful discrimination on the basis of familial status. Here's a statement from 2015 from a Georgia law firm specialized in HOA law:

"Current HUD opinions for the most part have found restrictions limiting the use of a pool by children under the age of 14, 13 or 12 without adult supervision to be reasonably related to the health, safety and welfare of the child. Any age limitations above that will call into question as to whether or not the concern is over a child being a competent swimmer so much as it is limiting the use of the pool by children. Please note, however, there are some circumstances where a higher age limit may be acceptable, such as the use of gym equipment or weights. Furthermore, case law involving FHA complaints is constantly evolving so it is important to monitor the current case law to ensure compliance with the FHA."
-- https://coultersierra.com/wp-content/uploads/Coulter-Sierra_Newsletter_April-2015.pdf
ReneeH5 (Texas)
Posts: 38
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 05/20/2019 9:00 AM
Unless you live in age restricted community, the answer is YES, that is discrimination.

How so? The age posted now is now 14. Whats the difference? We don't live in an age restricted society but you can't vote until you're 18..
ReneeH5 (Texas)
Posts: 38
Posted:
Add to that we've had multiple teens take over the small pool (capacity 46) and have caused damages..
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Per Condo Law - When can kids be left unattended at the Pool - Rules / Regulations from an attorney's website:

What is frequently found in Rules and Regulations is language stating in effect that " Children may not use the pool except in the presence and subject to the supervision of an adult ." . . .As a result, such a broad association rule may be discriminatory and/or could be in violation of the Fair Housing Act. As amended, Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (known more commonly as the Fair Housing Act), prohibits any discrimination based on race, color, national origin, religion, gender, familial status or handicap or disability in the sale, rental, and financing of dwellings and in other housing related transactions. Among other circumstances, "familial status" includes families with children under the age of 18 living with parents or legal custodians, pregnant women, and people securing custody of children under the age of 18.

Since all Associations must comply with the FHA statute, such a rule would be discriminatory.

I would strongly recommend asking for a legal opinion on what rules to post for use of the pool.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ReneeH5 on 05/20/2019 9:07 AM
Add to that we've had multiple teens take over the small pool (capacity 46) and have caused damages..


I hear you, but HUD expects the HOA to fine for damages, rowdiness, et cetera rather than make a blanket assumption that all minors of a certain age will do damage, be rowdy et cetera. HUD does not even want HOAs to disallow kids from playing in HOA-owned streets.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Even if you had such a rule requiring adults to be present, you also know or should know that doesn't guarantee anything. How many times have you seen adults yap among themselves, sleep, read or do something else while the kids are running wild, perhaps looking up briefly to say "Johnny, stop that!" while the kid ignores him or her?

You should still consult your association attorney to see if you can or can't enact such a rule, but for now, job one should be to focus on the problem behavior - when you enact clear and specific rules and enforce them, there may be some pushback at first, but fairness and consistency is key. Once people see you mean business, that may reduce the amount of mayhem.

When we had our pool (we got rid of it due to mounting costs), no one was admitted to the pool without a pass. I believe we issued 4 per household, which the homeowner's guests could use. Homeowners were ultimately repsonsible for the behavior of people in their household, or tenants and visitors - misbehaving would result in people being asked to leave and if that behavior continued, they would lose their privilege for the rest of the season (Memorial Day weekend through Labor Day weekend).

Due to the size of our pool, we didn't need a lifeguard, so homeowners were told it was a swim at your own risk pool - meaning it would make sense for parents/guardians to be there to watch younger children We also required swim diapers for toddlers (and adults who had continence issues), prohibited the use of alcohol or glass containers around the pool and some other rules I can't remember. WE had an off duty cop who was the pool monitor and gave him the power to shut down th epool and toss everyone out if things got too rowdy (he checked passes but wasn't a lifeguard)

Your attorney and association insurance company may be able to help you develop rules that are fair and legal, but the board will still have to figure out how to enforce all this (and pay for it). If you end up having to hire security or get security cameras, do what you gotta do and raise assessments accordingly. If you enact a set a rules, be sure to send written notice to the homeowners with and effective date. Good luck!

(for the 1000th time, this reminds me why we finally got rid of our pool - and no one misses it!)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
RoyalP
Posts: 1,104
Posted:
blah blah blah

as per Texas law:

..... (2) "Child" means a person who is:
(A) ten years of age or older and under 17 years of age; or .....


pool sign REQUIRED by Texas law:

custom-pool-rule-sign-s-3772

simply insert desired occupancy # at top line and 17 for bottom line and be compliant
ReneeH5 (Texas)
Posts: 38
Posted:
I believe the atty said 14 and cited something from California.. I think that's unreasonable but that's my opinion. Not looking to get sued
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
If your pool does not have a lifeguard then Texas law requires children to be supervised by an adult.
ReneeH5 (Texas)
Posts: 38
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamE2 on 05/20/2019 10:28 AM
If your pool does not have a lifeguard then Texas law requires children to be supervised by an adult.

But federal trumps state does it not?
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Renee,
I just sat through a 2 hour presentation from a Law Firm in the Austin area. The lawyer was asked specifically to comment on this age issue. He strongly recommended the age that needed supervision be under 15 years of age. He said any other restrictions would be very unadvisable. Another interesting thing he mentioned that the board can change pool rules without any change in By-Laws or CC&R changes. Probably should be done at aboard meeting and signage needs to be changed before it is enforceable.

The problem that can naturally arise is how do you know what a kid 15 years old looks like these days. They come in all shapes and sizes and I have seen many specific races that can grow facial hair extremely young. Kids rarely carry any form of identification and who is going to be the bad cop to challenge somebodies kid? I promise that can go all bad.

My suggestion is to have the best cameras you can afford along with card access to get into the pool. When vandalism happens review the video and bring in the perps and remove privileges and the word will get out quickly. I would send a note to every HO and let them know if they see something say something. They can send a note to the board an note the time of the incident.

One of the things I say all of the time when homeowners ask why things happen in the community. I live in a Large HOA with over 1400 homes. I tell them that the community has over 5000 eyes. The board and the PM only have 12 eyes. They have to report things if they want to keep everyone safe and happy.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ReneeH5 on 05/20/2019 10:42 AM
Posted By SamE2 on 05/20/2019 10:28 AM
If your pool does not have a lifeguard then Texas law requires children to be supervised by an adult.


But federal trumps state does it not?

When? Haven't you been reading the papers lately?
ReneeH5 (Texas)
Posts: 38
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 05/20/2019 11:15 AM
Posted By ReneeH5 on 05/20/2019 10:42 AM
Posted By SamE2 on 05/20/2019 10:28 AM
If your pool does not have a lifeguard then Texas law requires children to be supervised by an adult.


But federal trumps state does it not?


When? Haven't you been reading the papers lately?

What are you referring to with your reply? I'm just trying to figure this out. I was given these two cases as references: Iniestra v. Cliff Warren Investments, Inc and Landesman v. The Keys Condominium Owners Association
RoyalP
Posts: 1,104
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SamE2 on 05/20/2019 10:28 AM
If your pool does not have a lifeguard then Texas law requires children to be supervised by an adult.

Texas law defines child as 'under 17' - see my direct quote above.
SamE2 (New Jersey)
Posts: 310
Posted:
Read 6c in the link. Federal law usually trumps state law. States regulate pools not federal. https://www.dshs.texas.gov/poolspa/faqs.aspx
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RoyalP on 05/20/2019 11:53 AM
Texas law defines child as 'under 17' - see my direct quote above.


This "Texas law" definition applies only where the word "child" is used in Texas's Title 3. Juvenile Justice Code.

As for state vs. federal law, I believe a court would say there is no conflict between Texas's requirement for signage stating, "Children should not use pool without adult supervision" and Fair Housing Act requirements. The signage is advisory. It does not mandate anything.

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