JillS8 (California)
Posts: 101
Posts: 101
Posted:
Is selective enforcement not enforcing rules in general or not enforcing a specific rule on every owner? What does everyone do if the board does not enforce rules? I
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Selective Enforcement
Started by JillS8 • 17 replies • 1417 views
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LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
everything is not always as it seems. Master planned communities typically have one size fits all CCR's only to find out that some are hard to enforce, some can't be enforced or some are unfair. Perhaps you can be more specific.
Example: CCR's in a master planned community state no on-street paring allowed. Perhaps 1/3rd of the homes have full driveways, The other 1/3rd have half of a driveway with a sidewalk, and the remaining homes have a 3' apron leading to their garage, and these homes do not have a sidewalk. Would it be fair to enforce the CCR's in this case? Probably not. Amending the CCR's poses a bigger challenge, so BOD's do not enforce this covenant.
Example: CCR's in a master planned community state no on-street paring allowed. Perhaps 1/3rd of the homes have full driveways, The other 1/3rd have half of a driveway with a sidewalk, and the remaining homes have a 3' apron leading to their garage, and these homes do not have a sidewalk. Would it be fair to enforce the CCR's in this case? Probably not. Amending the CCR's poses a bigger challenge, so BOD's do not enforce this covenant.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
The defense of selective enforcement applies to the same type of violation. Example, I get a fine for letting my dog run off-leash. The neighbor down the block does the exact same thing and is not fined. That's selective enforcement.
Another example: I get fined for having a junk car in my front yard up on blocks with no wheels. My neighbor left his garbage cans out for 3 days after trash collection day and does not get fined. That's not selective enforcement. The violations being enforced have to be the same.
Another example: I get fined for having a junk car in my front yard up on blocks with no wheels. My neighbor left his garbage cans out for 3 days after trash collection day and does not get fined. That's not selective enforcement. The violations being enforced have to be the same.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Geno gave good examples of what is or isn't selective enforcement.
Regarding general enforcement of rules, I've only seen a few governing documents that require a board to enforce. They, like any member, has the authority to enforce but not a requirement.
To see if it's a requirement in your Association, you will need to read your covenants, bylaws and articles of incorporation.
That said, expecting that the Association has the option to enforce, if they enforce they must enforce on all.
The concerns with not enforcing is that a challenge can be made, through the courts, to invalidate a covenant or rule due to non-enforcement. This rarely happens, but can happen.
The only semi-valid reason I've seen for non-enforcement is a lack of time to do it properly.
Regarding general enforcement of rules, I've only seen a few governing documents that require a board to enforce. They, like any member, has the authority to enforce but not a requirement.
To see if it's a requirement in your Association, you will need to read your covenants, bylaws and articles of incorporation.
That said, expecting that the Association has the option to enforce, if they enforce they must enforce on all.
The concerns with not enforcing is that a challenge can be made, through the courts, to invalidate a covenant or rule due to non-enforcement. This rarely happens, but can happen.
The only semi-valid reason I've seen for non-enforcement is a lack of time to do it properly.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It's also very hard to judge "Selective enforcement". So the claims of such are very hard to claim in court. Let's take the other examples. My dog runs off leash and I get a fine. However, I hear my neighbor down the road let theirs run loose with no fine. Now I am going to claim "Selective Enforcement".
Well...Let's take another look at the situation... EXAMPLE: My dog I let off leash on purpose to train it to be able to be off-leash. So if go hiking or to a dog park, it will be okay with being off-leash. Now my dog may be a pit-bull mix and it may be scary to some people who see it. A neighbor who is scared of big pit bull looking dogs reports me to the HOA for having the dog off-leash. The rules are that Size, type, and being on a leash matter. I've had to go through the 30 - 60 day process of having the fine assessed to me. Typically there is a time period involved where can fight it before it's assessed. I ended up with the fine because I violated the large dog, pit-bull mix, and running without a leash rule.
The neighbor down the street has a pug. One day while bringing in groceries the dog escapes out the door. Due to neighbor having a broken wrist, they normally don't leave their door open bringing in groceries and forgot to put dog in another room. The dog is seen running around without a leash. Owner can't use leash due to injury. This is about 2 weeks after your dog had been reported without a leash. So they aren't being called to being fined yet when you are. Their fine process has yet to begin or is in process of the 30 days (whatever timeline it is). Their defense is that it was an accident, small dog, and unable to attach a leash.
Not the best example but you can see how one dog without a leash story and not getting fined adds up. Is this now "Selective enforcement"? Not in my opinion. However, people will claim it so they can threaten to file a suit. A smart HOA won't quiver and run to a lawyer. A dumb HOA will and cost the HOA thousands all in the name of "prevention".
Well...Let's take another look at the situation... EXAMPLE: My dog I let off leash on purpose to train it to be able to be off-leash. So if go hiking or to a dog park, it will be okay with being off-leash. Now my dog may be a pit-bull mix and it may be scary to some people who see it. A neighbor who is scared of big pit bull looking dogs reports me to the HOA for having the dog off-leash. The rules are that Size, type, and being on a leash matter. I've had to go through the 30 - 60 day process of having the fine assessed to me. Typically there is a time period involved where can fight it before it's assessed. I ended up with the fine because I violated the large dog, pit-bull mix, and running without a leash rule.
The neighbor down the street has a pug. One day while bringing in groceries the dog escapes out the door. Due to neighbor having a broken wrist, they normally don't leave their door open bringing in groceries and forgot to put dog in another room. The dog is seen running around without a leash. Owner can't use leash due to injury. This is about 2 weeks after your dog had been reported without a leash. So they aren't being called to being fined yet when you are. Their fine process has yet to begin or is in process of the 30 days (whatever timeline it is). Their defense is that it was an accident, small dog, and unable to attach a leash.
Not the best example but you can see how one dog without a leash story and not getting fined adds up. Is this now "Selective enforcement"? Not in my opinion. However, people will claim it so they can threaten to file a suit. A smart HOA won't quiver and run to a lawyer. A dumb HOA will and cost the HOA thousands all in the name of "prevention".
Former HOA President
JillS8 (California)
Posts: 101
Posts: 101
Posted:
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Depends on what your rules say. If there is no parking on the street, then if parked on street that is a violation. However, if it says must be parked in a driveway, then there is no violation. The rule doesn't say what type of vehicle is to be parked there. If your HOA doesn't have rules against trailers, boats, and/or commercial/recreational vehicles being parked at the residence, then no rule is broken.
Plus how can you see a fine? Do you know the board hasn't taken action? Do you know if it's been reported? Do you know what point they are in the fighting the fine? Seeing a trailer parked in a driveway doesn't mean it's not being addressed. That person may not be obeying.
Plus how can you see a fine? Do you know the board hasn't taken action? Do you know if it's been reported? Do you know what point they are in the fighting the fine? Seeing a trailer parked in a driveway doesn't mean it's not being addressed. That person may not be obeying.
Former HOA President
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JillS8 on 04/07/2019 7:51 AM
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
Probably.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Jill,
Yes.
If you want to change what is enforced, get on the Board and work with your neighbors.
Yes.
If you want to change what is enforced, get on the Board and work with your neighbors.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JillS8 on 04/07/2019 7:51 AM
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
Most probably, yes.
I feel you, neighbor across the street parked a tow-trailer in his driveway for several days and overnights last week in clear violation of our CC&Rs. Board decides to ignore it and the complaints they received about it. The difference between our HOAs, JillS8, is that my HOA also ignores violations of our street parking rules.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Melissa last post was exactly right in my opinion. How does one HO know if another HO is being fined? In order to start the fining process a letter has to be sent with a warning. Then another notice goes out again and then the fine letter is sent. If the HO wants to meet with the board to discuss this issue and give his side of the story it is scheduled for the next board meeting. HO says he will be out of town on business that week and it get pushed to the next board meeting. This time he claims he is sick or some other story. Bottom line is no one knows the story but the board, PM and HO. All other don't have the facts and selective enforcement is their opinion. You also have the HOs that ignore letters and the fines start and the owner ignores them. It can take years in some cases for things to get resolved.
If you are not on the board you can only assume that the board is doing everything in it's power to get the matter resolved.
If you are not on the board you can only assume that the board is doing everything in it's power to get the matter resolved.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JillS8 on 04/07/2019 7:51 AM
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
A board can choose thusly, but this does not mean the choice is lawful. In California --
-- HOA Boards have a duty to enforce the covenants. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Duty-to-Enforce
-- HOAs are required to provide an internal dispute resolution process at no cost to the complainant. See https://www.davis-stirling.com/HOME/Internal-Dispute-Resolution
Subsequently I think the question becomes whether a Member wants to put him- or herself in the spotlight as a "complainer." Also I think anyone giving the Board a hard time needs to be ready to run for the Board him- or herself. Serving on a HOA board is work. It is unpaid. I feel HOA directors, whether they are competent or not, take a lot of inappropriate (but sometimes appropriate) grief, based in people not reading and understanding the governing documents.
ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140
Posts: 140
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JillS8 on 04/07/2019 7:51 AM
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
So a board can choose to enforce no street parking but ignore trailers parking for weeks at a time in a driveway.
Yes. Those are completely different issues.
Selective enforcement would be the board sending you violation letters (or fining you) for parking a trailer in your driveway (assuming that's against your restrictions), while a neighbor keeps a trailer in their driveway for similar time spans.
i.e. Selective enforcement is enforcement of the same rule unequally/inconsistently across the membership.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posts: 821
Posted:
Why do homeowners see a violation and assume the Board is ignoring it instead of assuming the homeowner in violation is ignoring the letter they got from the board?
Most of the time, people know perfectly well that they are in violation. They know their yard needs to be mowed or their fence is falling down or they aren't supposed to park a trailer in the driveway. So they've already made the choice to not care about the rules. So why is neighborhood anger directed a the board or the manager, because we aren't somehow able to MAKE them care?
I'm pretty sure 80% of the letters I send go straight into the trash. The other 10% might actually go fix the violation, and the other 10% call me up and scream at me because why I am sending them a letter when everyone else's house looks worse and nobody else has ever gotten a letter since the dawn of time.
Most of the time, people know perfectly well that they are in violation. They know their yard needs to be mowed or their fence is falling down or they aren't supposed to park a trailer in the driveway. So they've already made the choice to not care about the rules. So why is neighborhood anger directed a the board or the manager, because we aren't somehow able to MAKE them care?
I'm pretty sure 80% of the letters I send go straight into the trash. The other 10% might actually go fix the violation, and the other 10% call me up and scream at me because why I am sending them a letter when everyone else's house looks worse and nobody else has ever gotten a letter since the dawn of time.
NpS (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 4,216
Posts: 4,216
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/08/2019 7:12 AM
Why do homeowners see a violation and assume the Board is ignoring it instead of assuming the homeowner in violation is ignoring the letter they got from the board?
Most of the time, people know perfectly well that they are in violation. They know their yard needs to be mowed or their fence is falling down or they aren't supposed to park a trailer in the driveway. So they've already made the choice to not care about the rules. So why is neighborhood anger directed a the board or the manager, because we aren't somehow able to MAKE them care?
I'm pretty sure 80% of the letters I send go straight into the trash. The other 10% might actually go fix the violation, and the other 10% call me up and scream at me because why I am sending them a letter when everyone else's house looks worse and nobody else has ever gotten a letter since the dawn of time.
Why do homeowners see a violation and assume the Board is ignoring it instead of assuming the homeowner in violation is ignoring the letter they got from the board?
Most of the time, people know perfectly well that they are in violation. They know their yard needs to be mowed or their fence is falling down or they aren't supposed to park a trailer in the driveway. So they've already made the choice to not care about the rules. So why is neighborhood anger directed a the board or the manager, because we aren't somehow able to MAKE them care?
I'm pretty sure 80% of the letters I send go straight into the trash. The other 10% might actually go fix the violation, and the other 10% call me up and scream at me because why I am sending them a letter when everyone else's house looks worse and nobody else has ever gotten a letter since the dawn of time.
Thanks Barbara. Made me smile.
Sikubali jukumu. Read all posts at your own risk.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 04/08/2019 7:12 AM
Why do homeowners see a violation and assume the Board is ignoring it instead of assuming the homeowner in violation is ignoring the letter they got from the board?
Why do homeowners see a violation and assume the Board is ignoring it instead of assuming the homeowner in violation is ignoring the letter they got from the board?
Past experience. In my 5 years here the board sent 2 letters that were ignored and there was never any followup.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Selective enforcement is often screamed by those cited for a violation when it has nothing to do with their specific violation. Like cited for a derelict car in the driveway and responding you did not cite somebody for a trach barrel left out overnight thus this is selective enforcement
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 04/09/2019 5:15 PM
Selective enforcement is often screamed by those cited for a violation when it has nothing to do with their specific violation. Like cited for a derelict car in the driveway and responding you did not cite somebody for a trach barrel left out overnight thus this is selective enforcement
Selective enforcement is often screamed by those cited for a violation when it has nothing to do with their specific violation. Like cited for a derelict car in the driveway and responding you did not cite somebody for a trach barrel left out overnight thus this is selective enforcement
Exactly right. Had a couple who outright refused to keep their two dogs on leashes. They were very vocal about it, too. They claimed it would be selective enforcement to single them out for their dogs because other people were leaving their garage doors open in the daytime. They finally sold and moved. Some of us had a party.
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