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Website Posting of Paid Assessment by Address?

Started by GeorgeS21 ā€¢ 42 replies ā€¢ 776 views

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GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Recall one of my neighborhoods is a voluntary HOA with mandatory covenants. 189 single family houses with a budget of about $7500/yr with about 60% overall dues payment just barely meeting budget.

Bylaws updated and recorded, CC&Rs recorded and have automatic rollover, CC&Rs preserved and recorded wrt MRTA (Florida).

Given the voluntary nature of the HOA - i.e. dues are voluntary and payment is what makes you a "Member" - I was considering posting a list of addresses and showing which ADDRESSES had paid dues - not names. The list would be inside the public/private firewall - only Members have access to this part of the website. In order words, this would allow them to see which addresses had paid dues - and, by inference, which had not.

Thoughts?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Why, to shame someone into joining?
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
I understand the reason for wanting to do this. However, I doubt that it would shame the deadbeats into paying and it would probably feel somewhat high-handed even to the good citizens who are paying. Also, keep in mind that if it's online, it can be hacked. I'm the IT board person in my community, and I don't put anything personally identifiable on our site. Once you have an address, you have the owner's name (via county property tax records).

I believe the best option is vigorous collection actions and imposing allowable consequences on the delinquent owners, such as filing liens, blocking access to amenities, removing voting privileges, and the like. Liens are public information, and anyone can find out about them. (In fact, one of the things I check when I'm thinking about buying in an HOA community is the number of liens recorded and if they're in line with the number of homes in the community. Few to none in a large community suggests that the board is not trying to collect bad debts. A high number in proportion to the number of homes suggests that the HOA could be in financial trouble.)
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
If dues are voluntary, then paying dues is equivalent to a charitable dosnation.

Many charities post lists- even publicly available lists- of donors.

I don't see a problem with posting a list of dues-payers. Call them "contributing members."
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 03/15/2019 10:33 AM
If dues are voluntary, then paying dues is equivalent to a charitable dosnation.

Many charities post lists- even publicly available lists- of donors.

I don't see a problem with posting a list of dues-payers. Call them "contributing members."

I agree.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
It does seem like the objective is to shame people, no matter how thick the sugar coating. How about just a number? "We are pleased to have 14 homeowners out of 38 as members of our voluntary HOA. Your support makes all the difference!"
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Gene

You said

It does seem like the objective is to shame people, no matter how thick the sugar coating. How about just a number? "We are pleased to have 14 homeowners out of 38 as members of our voluntary HOA. Your support makes all the difference!"

My opinion

I would not remind people how 14 of 38 are paying. Some may decide why am I doing it if 24 other are not. You ever got to a higher ratio of payers to non payers maybe this might work. You don't want to make matters worse.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 03/16/2019 9:16 AM
Gene

You said

It does seem like the objective is to shame people, no matter how thick the sugar coating. How about just a number? "We are pleased to have 14 homeowners out of 38 as members of our voluntary HOA. Your support makes all the difference!"

My opinion

I would not remind people how 14 of 38 are paying. Some may decide why am I doing it if 24 other are not. You ever got to a higher ratio of payers to non payers maybe this might work. You don't want to make matters worse.

Valid point.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I consulted with Prez of HOA and he agreed we could try this - I provided a subcategory "2019 Membership" on the website. I then authorized only the Board to view, sent email to the Board asking for their thoughts.

Another way to think about this - only those that have paid can see the list - they are the only ones with access to material on the private side of the firewall.

The list has two columns ... Address and 2019 with PAID or blank.

My goal would be to have this influence those that have paid to pressure their neighbors who they can now see are not paying.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
George,
The only fear I have for you is right now you are doing what is expected of you as a board member. If you take this extra step and it works you will probably not get all of the credit for people paying up. If it fails and you lose payers I guarantee you will be thrown under the bus and will say what a bad idea is was and how they are against it. My point is I hope it is worth it to you.

I have for years tried to get our collections under control and have had really good success just filing liens and taking away privilege's.

I think you might be going All In with a weak hand.

Good luck and let us know if we were wrong.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Mark,

This particular HOA is voluntary ... but, covenants are mandatory. Weird situation.

Only those that have paid can see the list on the website.
RoyalP
Posts: 1,104
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 03/15/2019 10:33 AM
If dues are voluntary, then paying dues is equivalent to a charitable dosnation.

Many charities post lists- even publicly available lists- of donors.

I don't see a problem with posting a list of dues-payers. Call them "contributing members."

NOPE

Membership is voluntary, THEN assessments become mandatory (for said member).
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 03/16/2019 3:54 PM
If you take this extra step and it works you will probably not get all of the credit for people paying up. If it fails and you lose payers I guarantee you will be thrown under the bus and will say what a bad idea is was and how they are against it. My point is I hope it is worth it to you.

I think this is extremely sage advice. I've seen it in my HOA more than once over the last 5 years. People that initiate efforts or projects seldom get the credit for having done something positive for the community, but when something - anything - goes even a little bit wrong they will be thrown under the bus very quickly. Meanwhile, the ones who complain the loudest never lift a finger to do anything for the community. This phenomenon has resulted in 3 or 4 good people withdrawing from ever trying to work for the HOA again.

Not to get in the way of an optimistic view of how to help improve one's community, but it's a sober warning that everyone should at least be aware of. It's not uncommon for this to happen.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
George

A website that has a Members Only Section might do the trick. Might make non-payers want access to that section.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Membership in this HOA is defined as having paid dues for the year in question.

The website has a security firewall between the public and private areas - the list of addresses that have paid (and blanks for addresses that have not paid) is in the private section.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
George

Do not list who has not paid. Only list those that have. I believe in shaming but there are ways not to be obvious.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
It is a spreadsheet - removing 100 addresses is a PITA - and, to keep the list up to date. I just excerpt a chunk and use that.

Frankly, I am hoping those that do read it (probably a handful at most) will see they are paid - and those they know or those that are their neighbors have not paid.

I recognize there may be some blowback, but continue to look for ways to get the freeloaders to pay :-)
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
George,
Some come to this site for information and some come for validation. It is pretty clear that you are going to do what you have mentioned even though the advise of most has been they would avoid it.

Remember the old saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink it" I think that it was this has become.

Please follow your Gut and please report back so that others can learn from your success or failure.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I come to this site for advice - and to offer advice, admittedly based on my limited experiences and research.

Given the advice I receive, I ask myself if my specific circumstances are substantively different ... in this case, since I appear to be the only one asking about, or being involved with, a voluntary HOA construct, it would seem they are different.

Would I do this in a neighborhood with mandatory assessments? No, because the Board would be working to either develop payment plans with the non-payers, or be liening the properties of the non-payers. Posting a list would generate hostility, but not generate utility.

Will let everyone know if anything happens - pro or con to the concept of doing this :-)

BTW - we have 98 out of 189 paying dues at this point in the year. We'll get more, but likely never north of 120 paying. Think about managing a budget given this.

Perhaps a better thing to ask since some are against posting payers -

..... how would you recommend dealing with this ratio of payers, in a voluntary environment?
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
In order words, this would allow them to see which addresses had paid dues - and, by inference, which had not.

Thoughts?


Since it is a voluntary dues, basically a donation, I'm guessing its perfectly legal for post such a list. Since the dues are not an owed debt your probably free to make a list of whatever you want, like a list of houses that bought girl scout cookies and those that didnt.

As far as freeloding, I dont agree. Its a donation, therefore if they are not paying, they dont want to buy what your selling.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SteveM9 on 03/18/2019 5:48 PM
I'm guessing its perfectly legal for post such a list. Since the dues are not an owed debt your probably free to make a list of whatever you want

That's a very good point.

I think the answer to George's question is more marketing and better advertising. You really are trying to sell something to people who have no obilgation to buy. Try to make it as attractive a proposition as you can.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/16/2019 2:44 PM

My goal would be to have this influence those that have paid to pressure their neighbors who they can now see are not paying.

I think your goal will not be achieved.
Instead, you may end up dividing the neighborhood more.
Additionally, you may actually lose some members (I know I would resign out of protest to this tactic).

Instead, why not do member only events (parties, etc.) and advertise the fun that is being had.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Tried the social event concept ... no one is interested ...

Those that arenā€™t paying dues ARE absolutely freeloading ... half the owners pay for all the maintenance, landscaping, power, water, etc ... the other half is not. They are freeloading.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I wonder what the other point of view is?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 03/18/2019 8:35 PM
I wonder what the other point of view is?

Actually, that would be a good thing to find out.
Talk to some of those individuals (or do a survey) and find out why they choose not to join/pay.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Have asked about quite a lot:
- itā€™s voluntary, you canā€™t make me
- I hate HOAs
- Bob said something that made me mad Bob died 14 yrs ago)
- youā€™re a chump
- I hate covenants
- I donā€™t want to spend the money
- I donā€™t think itā€™s worth it

Cā€™mon ... freeloaders with excuses.

$60 a year.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Well, based on what you provided, I doubt posting names will do anything but further divide the community (as I said earlier).
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Tim,

Perhaps, but given the circumstances of assessments being voluntary, itā€™s one of the things weā€™re going to try.

Scenario: five of the 100 or so that pay get jacked up and press their neighbors to pay, as they are paying. They convince them ... $300 ... now 105 to potentially convince others, etc ... glass half full scenario, sure ... but, we donā€™t have many levers to pull.

There is a moral component, as well ... half are taking advantage of the other half ... this is unacceptable. Those taking advantage should feel guilty as hell.

Weā€™ll keeping working on it.
TimM11
Posts: 354
Posted:
What would they get by paying that they don't already get by not paying?

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
The knowledge they are paying their fair share? That they arenā€™t stealing from their neighbors? That they are doing the right thing? That they are paying for what they receive?
TimM11
Posts: 354
Posted:
You can't pay a mortgage or put gas in the car with a warm and fuzzy feeling. It doesn't sound like they get any concrete benefit from doing it that they wouldn't already.

I don't know why you have a voluntary HOA and not a mandatory one (I probably missed where you explained this in the past). But if it's going to be voluntary, those of you who choose to be a part of it should accept that you will be paying for those who don't want to (or maybe can't) pay. That is the way that voluntary organizations always work, in any setting -- some people put in more time/work/money than others.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
Those that arenā€™t paying dues ARE absolutely freeloading ... half the owners pay for all the maintenance, landscaping, power, water, etc ... the other half is not. They are freeloading.

If I was one of the people not paying voluntary dues, I would simply tell you to stop doing all those things. I'm not interested in any of them.
SteveM9 (Massachusetts)
Posts: 3,699
Posted:
Quote:
maintenance, landscaping, power, water, etc

Am I right in guessing your talking about a sign at the entrance with lights and water features?

If yes, more associations should simply let landscape the entrances so they go back to nature and never need maintaining again. A simple road sign provided by the city is sufficient.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
George,
The analogy I would draw for you is exactly the same as most Churches. Everyone attends and when the pass the collection plate some give and some don't. Everyone hears the message, everyone gets to hear the songs, some may even get to eat the snacks after the service. Only the people that feel so inclined put in the offering plate. Have you ever heard of a Church putting a who gave how much sign at the door or on it's website?

You have tried to defend your OP with 9 of your own replies. Go spend that time working on what is driving you crazy verses looking for validation from people on here that are not ever going to make you change your mind.

I want to see what happens once you do what you are obviously going to do.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Mark,

I am not looking for validation - I am trying to gather information that might be helpful to this neighborhood - I don't live in the neighborhood. I am on the board as an owner of houses there - and, have been attempting to help them - they asked for help - they needed the help. Sure I help myself, too, but I don't think my income from the rentals would change much whether they are getting dues from 50% or 80%.

My thoughts on this circumstance are different than some of yours - I'm OK with that. I am not OK, however, with those in life that simply take from others - especially when they live next to one another in the same "community."

Please keep providing your thoughts on how to get more to pay their assessments - who knows, you might come up with something that is the "problem solver."
TimM11
Posts: 354
Posted:
Have you considered that this might backfire and not produce the result you're intending? People might see who pays and decide that if so-and-so doesn't, why should they? And most of the people who don't pay now probably don't care if people know, especially if they don't want the HOA to begin with.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Tim,

Yes, we have discussed that. In general, we are trying to see what does work - if we get negative feedback, it will certainly be considered and we'll make the call to shut down the list.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/19/2019 10:32 AM

Please keep providing your thoughts on how to get more to pay their assessments

Pay their assessments would only apply if the HOA was mandatory, which, if memory serves me correctly is voluntary.

In addition, this line, The knowledge they are paying their fair share? That they arenā€™t stealing from their neighbors? That they are doing the right thing? That they are paying for what they receive? is BS.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Gee, thanks, Richard, for your assessment. You realize what you wrote, given all the background you have on this topic, does look pretty silly on the screen, right? Would you also not pay for those things from which you benefit, knowing your neighbors do? Simply because it isnā€™t written?

I will continue to try and improve the neighborhood, which requires me, and others, to pay for others to have the advantages that we all share. We will continue to look for ways to get those that donā€™t pay, to pay their fair share.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
George

Why is it silly? I have no idea what amenities you may or may not have. I paid for amenities I would never use, but paid them. I never used the pool as I had my own. Never used the park. But always paid my dues as they were mandatory. Yours are voluntary, don't ever force something they don't want. If you want a mandatory HOA, you are going to have to pay a lawyer to prepare the proper documents, get 100% of the owners to agree as well as 100% of the mortgage companies to also agree.

I have belonged to one HOA in my life and will NEVER live in one again, even though I own a management company that only handles HOA's. I had management companies flat out lie to me. I had law firms flat lie to me. I had board members flat out lie to me. Both my wife and I, along with a few others tried to make a real difference in the quality of life there to the point where our health failed us.

I have handled or been involved in over 120 HOA's over the past 10 years. Nobody wants to get involved. I worked for a management company for a month and found they were taking money from HOA's that had NO board, nobody! Was told to go with the flow and I told them I will make sure the door doesn't hit me on the way out.
ND (PA)
Posts: 792
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 03/18/2019 8:25 PM
Tried the social event concept ... no one is interested ...

Those that arenā€™t paying dues ARE absolutely freeloading ... half the owners pay for all the maintenance, landscaping, power, water, etc ... the other half is not. They are freeloading.

What specifically is being maintained, landscaped, powered, and provided water, and what falls in the "etc" category of things that are paid for w/ HOA assessments? I'm trying to understand what your HOA is spending money on that requires anyone to pay assessments. As one other poster mentioned, I personally might elect to not pay assessments toward something that I feel is completely unnecessary and does not have an impact on the value of my home.

Without having a better understanding of that, I'm undecided as to whether these people are freeloaders or good decision-makers.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Formal entrance with landscaping on both sides, island with landscaping, fencing on sides, entrance lighting, neighborhood name large signage, flag pole with lighting, fenced 1 acre park with seating areas and tables and security lighting (the park is owned individisibly by the property owners),

It is, even with the voluntary nature of the HOA, the nicest single family, small home community in our city.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I left out irrigation system to service all the landscaping.

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