Photos of minors

Started by LisaD6 • 50 replies • 1229 views

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LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

In Ct does anyone know the law for photoing minors. We have an issue of kids running around screaming without adult supervision. and there is an elderly couple who are upset about this. Can photos be taken as proof of the kids running around. And what to do when one unit says hers kids have rights to run around and another doesnt want them in there back deck area. One with kids says they can go anywhere they want. We have a rule that staes kids under the age of 12 have to be with an dult. This is a hot mess. Help please. I am the president of the board. Photos as proof would help..

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Don’t know the legal answer.

I would feel comfortable taking photos and using them to consider the infraction in executive session, but would certainly not publish them in any way. Nor would I list or discuss their names outside of executive session.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

You are going to run into some FHA issues because you cannot discriminate based on familial status. Can you elaborate more please? Are these kids trespassing on other peoples property? Are they running amok in common areas. As far as taking pictures of minors, I am not aware of any specific laws that prohibit it, if they are running amok in common areas and you are taking pictures for evidence of a violation then it is fair game. It would be no different if the area was monitored by surveillance video recording cameras.

CjC
Posts: 210

Posted:

Your HOA actually has a rule that all kids under 12 need to be playing outside with an adult?? IS that on their own private property, on common area, at the pool, playground?? We need to encourage kids to play outside. I would understand if it is late at night etc, but during the day? People need to let kids be kids (within reason - like they aren't being destructive or harming anyone's property).

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CjC on 01/31/2019 7:09 AM
Your HOA actually has a rule that all kids under 12 need to be playing outside with an adult?? IS that on their own private property, on common area, at the pool, playground?? We need to encourage kids to play outside. I would understand if it is late at night etc, but during the day? People need to let kids be kids (within reason - like they aren't being destructive or harming anyone's property).

And if a HOA member or HOA director does not like the above reasoning, then consider what HUD has to say: Not letting kids be kids and requiring them to always have an adult present discriminates against people with kids and is unlawful discrimination on the basis of familial status, in violation of the federal Fair Housing Act and probably state laws as well. HUD has been particularly successful at prosecuting such cases. I advise the OP's HOA's Board to speak with the HOA attorney on what it may and may not restrict with respect to kids, with attention to the Fair Housing Act and how ferocious (and costly) a HUD FHA claim can be.

I know this is bad news for many. One would think that people without kids should be able to enjoy their homes in peace. But the law says that when one buys into a HOA, for the greater part one of the disadvantages is that kids are allowed to be noisy and allowed to run around without adult supervision.

I am aware of HOAs who have fought this and ended up shelling out on the order of $100,000 in legal fees, due to incorrect attorney advice.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Lisa,
This is a slippery slope. I can tell you what happened in our community in Ca. a few years ago.

We had received several complaints about young kids between the ages of 6 to 12ish riding motorized small mini bikes on our private streets. All of our board had seen this from time to time and were trying to figure out how we could handle it. I was with another board member just outside our Club house and we saw 3 young kids riding towards us on a single scooter that only had 1 seat. The other board member quickly took out his phone and caught a video of them as they drove past us. None of them had helmets on and the 2 on the back were struggling just to stay on the bike. I recognized 2 of the younger kids and knew the parent of those kids. She has always been trouble and I had a few run ins with her in the past. No big deal we had the video and would call in the parties to explain how unsafe this activity was for the kids. Well not 20 minutes later I get a call while I am at the Store and it is a Cop asking me if I could meet him at our Club house. When I arrived he asked me to see my phone. I said is this regarding the kids riding the motor bike and he said the lady reported me for voyeurism. I asked the other board member to come over and he had the video on his phone. The cop asked him to remove it from his phone to be on the safe side. No further action was taken.

It is crazy to think that when we are in a public space that we can not record or be recorded. Our buildings all had video cameras and signage saying that the area is under surveillance. If you go to Wal Mart creepier guys than board members are watching your every move.

Bottom line expect the unexpected and be careful.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

This is exactly the kind of thing that ends up on the local news as an example of HOAs run amok and further promotes the image of HOAs as petty dictatorships.

It is unreasonable for homeowners to expect complete silence during the day. It is unreasonable of an HOA to ban children from being outdoors unaccompanied. It is unreasonable, intrusive, and just plain gross to photograph people without their consent, especially children.

The complainers need to get a grip, and move to a 55 plus community if they cannot bear the sight or sound of children.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

I would also like to add that none of this should be the Board's business at all. Every instance you cite is a neighbor to neighbor dispute that the Board should not be trying to mediate or resolve.

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Barbara,
In our case I disagree. The only reason I would challenge your comments is if the dangerous behavior is being done on HOA property. In my case if one of those kids falls of the motorized bike and is paralyzed or killed the entire community will be liable. Especially if complaints were made about the illegal behavior in advance. If you do not have proof of a violation it is hard to enforce it.

Kids running on neighbors property in not an HOA issue IMO.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494

Posted:

It is legal to photograph anything visible from a public place where there is no expectation of privacy. Kids are no different.

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 01/31/2019 7:58 AM
Lisa,
This is a slippery slope. I can tell you what happened in our community in Ca. a few years ago.

We had received several complaints about young kids between the ages of 6 to 12ish riding motorized small mini bikes on our private streets. All of our board had seen this from time to time and were trying to figure out how we could handle it. I was with another board member just outside our Club house and we saw 3 young kids riding towards us on a single scooter that only had 1 seat. The other board member quickly took out his phone and caught a video of them as they drove past us. None of them had helmets on and the 2 on the back were struggling just to stay on the bike. I recognized 2 of the younger kids and knew the parent of those kids. She has always been trouble and I had a few run ins with her in the past. No big deal we had the video and would call in the parties to explain how unsafe this activity was for the kids. Well not 20 minutes later I get a call while I am at the Store and it is a Cop asking me if I could meet him at our Club house. When I arrived he asked me to see my phone. I said is this regarding the kids riding the motor bike and he said the lady reported me for voyeurism. I asked the other board member to come over and he had the video on his phone. The cop asked him to remove it from his phone to be on the safe side. No further action was taken.

It is crazy to think that when we are in a public space that we can not record or be recorded. Our buildings all had video cameras and signage saying that the area is under surveillance. If you go to Wal Mart creepier guys than board members are watching your every move.

Bottom line expect the unexpected and be careful.

From 'my' association's Covenants:

Article VII

Use Restrictions

Section 23. No motorized vehicle shall be driven in the [redacted] Community by
anyone other than a person who is properly licensed to operate a motor vehicle on a road,
including frontage, town, county or state roads. Owners of vehicles not requiring state
registration (i.e. golf carts, scooters, etc.) must provide the Board of Directors with a copy of the
operational permit (drivers license) obtained from the South Carolina Department of Motor Vehicles.

---------------------------------------------

problem solved, w/o any discrimination, as it also applies to us senior old farts in our 55+ community

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

ps. we own our roads as common elements

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM19 on 01/31/2019 9:39 AM
Barbara,
In our case I disagree. The only reason I would challenge your comments is if the dangerous behavior is being done on HOA property. In my case if one of those kids falls of the motorized bike and is paralyzed or killed the entire community will be liable. Especially if complaints were made about the illegal behavior in advance. If you do not have proof of a violation it is hard to enforce it.

Kids running on neighbors property in not an HOA issue IMO.

Well, if it's *illegal* behavior, law enforcement should be handling it.

I'm not a lawyer, so I can't tell you to what extent the HOA would be liable for injuries to someone that were caused entirely by their own behavior, simply because the injury took place on HOA property. I suspect that would be up to a jury, or your insurance company. Certainly, anyone can sue anyone for anything, and I've had homeowners threaten to sue because they tripped over a curb while merely walking.

I think HOAs run into trouble when they try to make rules about homeowner behavior, rather than property. Whether or not a fence is broken is objective. What behavior is dangerous is not.

BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RoyalP on 01/31/2019 10:22 AM

How do you enforce this? Do you have a traffic patrol pulling people over and asking to see their license?

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

+ from a liability standpoint the association is protected

+ when a 'child' is operating an electric scooter or any motorized vehicle it becomes 'prima facie' a covenant violation and the owner with the visitor is contacted re: the violation

+ one owner from each home is required to have photo id 'on file' as proof of 55+ age, they generally supply a drivers license

+ our 'discrimination/selective enforcement' is non verifiable therefor effective

+ should one of our unlicensed seniors become involved in an 'accident' it becomes 'prima facie' negligence on their part resulting in IMMEDIATE monetary compliance

+ the restriction works and works well as an unlicensed vehicle operator becomes a trespasser

We do NOT have 'old farts with carts' upon our private roads

nor children 'buzzing about' on motorized vehicles

We are, in fact, as close to dead as we can be, while still actually moving

MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459

Posted:

Royal,
Being Protected means we may win in court if it is challenged. As I am sure you are well aware it costs a lot to defend the HOA in court win or lose. That is what needs to be avoided whenever possible.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Barbara,

Your position, as you state it, is incoherent with many HOAs.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 01/31/2019 9:48 AM
It is legal to photograph anything visible from a public place where there is no expectation of privacy. Kids are no different.

I think this nails it. Get some photo or video editing software and blur out their faces if need be. See it from the street? No expectation of privacy.

FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927

Posted:

Exactly.

Indeed, it would be allowable to print large canvases, and sell them at your local craft mart as part of your Ragazzi series.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredS7 on 02/01/2019 7:15 AM
Exactly.

Indeed, it would be allowable to print large canvases, and sell them at your local craft mart as part of your Ragazzi series.

No, I was speaking of photography. Selling prints of your photographs is something different and would require a models release. But a models release would not be needed for non-commercial use such as showing the little heathens destroying stuff.

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By FredS7 on 02/01/2019 7:15 AM
Exactly.

Indeed, it would be allowable to print large canvases, and sell them at your local craft mart as part of your Ragazzi series.

No, it is NOT permissible to sell them w/o releases.

The key word being 'sell'.

It IS permissible to print and/or display them w/o any commercial intent.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

We have an elderly couple who are complaining of the noise. This is happening on common area. And the adult who should be watching them is not on the grounds with them. as the rule states. So pictures need to be taken as proof of the kids on the grounds without the adult screaming and running wildly.. Mu quesiton is about the pictures for the fine hearing in the the executive part of the special meeting.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

You are right about HUD. But in CT the law follows 12 years or younger for an adult to be with a kid. HEnce the rule for 12 years or younger an adult to be present. Reason. They throw things at the windows unit owners have to pay to fix them.. And soon. Kids can be kids up on the dead end road by the cemetary. We have like 10 feet to fence for all units. we are a crammed close townhouse connected community with no pools no room for a playground. So yes we can have a rule under 12 for on the common area has to be supervised with an adult. If they are on their back deck limited common area its fine for them to play and be free to be a kid. hope this explains better for you.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

Voyerism in ct is when someone looks in a window or takes pictures on the limited common area. Or at schools. I dont agree with what your cop person did. Was not right it was a public place. What if you were a photographer you have rights to take photos in a public place.. That part I understand..ITs the part of how to control this situation. I am in the middle. I feel for the elderly couple. Who also has rights and in the past has gone to the CRUD something like that for handicap elderly. along with like what has been mentioned here kids have rights to play. But they dont have rights to scream and upset an elderly couple. My reasoning for all this I said, you keep your kids away form their back deck area and it should be fine. No she has the right for her kids to be back there and in her mind she is watching them 250 feet away if she was with them they wouldnt of been screaming and flying into the other HOA condos fence..If they were playing with match boxes and barbie dolls in front of their back deck it would be fine. ME I live on the other side the kids dont go over there cause they know not to.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

Where is this from please and what state.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/02/2019 5:12 PM
You are right about HUD. But in CT the law follows 12 years or younger for an adult to be with a kid. HEnce the rule for 12 years or younger an adult to be present. Reason. They throw things at the windows unit owners have to pay to fix them.. And soon. Kids can be kids up on the dead end road by the cemetary. We have like 10 feet to fence for all units. we are a crammed close townhouse connected community with no pools no room for a playground. So yes we can have a rule under 12 for on the common area has to be supervised with an adult.

I would bet HUD would win a case against your HOA. Federal Fair Housing law trumps Connecticut law. Consider for example:

"In a recent consent order between HUD and a housing provider, HUD mandated that the
provider rescind its policy of requiring children under age 12 to be accompanied at all times
by an adult over 18 anywhere on the premises. This mandated rescission applied to policies
that restricted children’s access to areas including the laundry room, gym, and clubhouse
rooms. This consent order displays HUD’s disapproval of rules that broadly restrict children’s
access without compelling justifications and least restrictive means."

See https://www.nmhc.org/uploadedFiles/Articles/External_Resources/Fair%20Housing%20White%20Paper%202016-03%20FINAL.pdf

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

We are not restricting. They can play. In CT they follow age 12 and under for kids to be alone. These kids are not just being quiet and walking around. then they would not be noticed. They are screaming wrestling. And bothering an elderly couple who also has rights because elderly handicap is involved too. Which there are laws protecting that age group too. ITs not me I agree if kids can be quiet and play with tonka trucks or nice little toys its not an issue. These kids are destructive and screaming. And its not me doing the complaining. I am receiving the complaining from both sides.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

What state is this. HUD is by state. Does not give them the right to run around crazily on the common area that is not that big.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/02/2019 5:48 PM
We are not restricting. They can play. In CT they follow age 12 and under for kids to be alone. These kids are not just being quiet and walking around. then they would not be noticed. They are screaming wrestling. And bothering an elderly couple who also has rights because elderly handicap is involved too. Which there are laws protecting that age group too. ITs not me I agree if kids can be quiet and play with tonka trucks or nice little toys its not an issue. These kids are destructive and screaming. And its not me doing the complaining. I am receiving the complaining from both sides.

Your rule is that kids under age 12 on the common areas has to have an adult with them. HUD says this places a burden on families with kids. Not fair.

HUD is not state by state. People here at hoatalk, en masse, are very experienced in these matters. Of course you can sit there and say, "You're wrong" all you want. Fine. This is the path to education. You see it here. It plants a seed. Ultimately you find out that HUD is not state by state.

From reading about HUD's position, the guidance is to make rules that are kid-neutral. E.g. "No noise that unreasonably disturbs others."

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Augie wrote: "No noise that unreasonably disturbs others." That's pretty much what we have in our high rise and it's actually directed at adult partiers on balconies. But we do occasionally get screaming grandkids in the pool and we enforce the noise nuisance rule.

I thin maybe most CC&Rs have nuisance clauses that are pretty flexible and can easily framed for all ages. We, for example, allow no wheeled recreational devices in our common areas (really just walkways and the pool area).

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667

Posted:

Destructive how?

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667

Posted:

Agree that noise is the only thing that matters, no matter who is making the noise. And kids do not have to be 'silent'. Adults are not required to silently walk around. That is absurd.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 02/02/2019 6:52 PM
I thin maybe most CC&Rs have nuisance clauses that are pretty flexible and can easily framed for all ages. We, for example, allow no wheeled recreational devices in our common areas (really just walkways and the pool area).

Same here. We specifically amended our CC&Rs last year to make the nuisance clause less rigid and more flexible.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Jennifer asks a good question: "Destructive how?" If they're destroying common area, then the owners of the homes where they live need to be called to sharing and fined or whatever prod cruder you have. If they're destroying neighbors' premises, that probably is a neighbor-neighbor dispute.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

Safety is one this g we follow when it comes to kids. Leaving bikes out in,middle of yard. Insurance issue. Running around on other decks not kook.. These kids I saw running around a unit owners car screamingvholdibg a snow shovel chasing the other one while hitting car instead of kid had wanted to hit. So HUD
Backs the family in these scenarios. Instead of calmingbit down before damage to items and kid injuries. Hmmm

CjC
Posts: 210

Posted:

So lets say that the adult is with the kids in the common area. The kids can still be just as loud. Is it that the elderly neighbors would feel better yelling at the adult to tell the kids to keep it down? What says the adult out there would tell the kids to be quiet. If it is normal daytime hours,kids go outside to "let off steam". You want them to use energy running and being kids. I think there are unreasonable expectations on this situation that this would be different if an adult was present.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

The kids parent wants the adult to yell at her not the kids. But everyone is forgettjng there are laws protecting elderly handicap people too. That's the area where these kids a are yelling in.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/04/2019 5:00 AM
HUD Backs the family in these scenarios. Instead of calmingbit down before damage to items and kid injuries. Hmmm

In general, HUD wants kid-neutral rules. Poolside is the one exception where HUD allows some limited restrictions based on a certain age.

As for your scenario: Document with witness affidavits (and hopefully photographs) the kids doing damage to a member's car. Pass along to the member. Check governing documents to see if there are any kid-neutral rules that apply. Issue violation as appropriate.

Let the police say whatever nonsense about the photos. Where I am the police are on a short leash and stay out of everything as much as possible, issuing verbal jabberwocky but often, that's it. At least when push comes to shove and for the most part, the police are ready to take a bullet for a member of the public.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

The only thing of kid mentioned in our rules is 12 and with adult on common area.. All other rules include everyone.. Kids adults elders... Nothing specifies kids only. Except above what I put

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/04/2019 7:41 AM
The kids parent wants the adult to yell at her not the kids. But everyone is forgettjng there are laws protecting elderly handicap people too. That's the area where these kids a are yelling in.

There is no law protecting elderly handicapped people from noise anymore than anyone else. That is an appeal to emotion.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

Disagree.... There was an issue over noise from another unit.. And let's say the noise is no more a new noise rule was written

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/04/2019 1:33 PM
Disagree.... There was an issue over noise from another unit.. And let's say the noise is no more a new noise rule was written

Can you please quote this LAW that protects elderly handicapped people from noise more than anyone else?You said 'there are laws about that'.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

CHRO Commision on Human Rights and opportunities.. Which includes handicap elderly..

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/04/2019 3:34 PM
CHRO Commision on Human Rights and opportunities.. Which includes handicap elderly..

And the part where elderly homeowners or tenants are protected from noise more than anyone else?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Lisa

This is a complaint (noise) between two neighbors. It is not a BOD issues. Stay out of it.

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

I wish BOD can stay out of it....when complaints as filed can not be Ignorred. I am not directly involved I am,in the muddle. Did not tell either the had to do anything, but I'm sure the BOD. Will be discussjng this at a board meeting.. Telling the BOD. To stay out of it is asking for problems...just mentioning it.

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/04/2019 5:20 PM
I wish BOD can stay out of it....when complaints as filed can not be Ignorred. I am not directly involved I am,in the muddle. Did not tell either the had to do anything, but I'm sure the BOD. Will be discussjng this at a board meeting.. Telling the BOD. To stay out of it is asking for problems...just mentioning it.

apparently so

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

If you have rules against noises all day & night, then the Board can be involved. Because we're twin high rises, noises that one unit's peeps make on their balcony or folks in the swimming pool or pool area can affect many others. We do enforce our noise nuisance rules, but the noise has to be corroborated by others .

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LisaD6 on 02/04/2019 3:34 PM
CHRO Commision on Human Rights and opportunities.. Which includes handicap elderly..

'Handicap' is a noun. 'Elderly' is a noun. Perhaps you mean "handicapped elderly"?

LisaD6 (Maryland)
Posts: 77

Posted:

Means nothing to me my point got across, now is there any input to the thread.or are you the grammar teacher. I failed English writing and Ty for pointing out my weakness.

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