Hot water

Hello everyone. I apologize if this question has been asked before, I searched for it but nothing comes up.

I live in a high-rise condo, where the water heating is owned by the HoA. A few days ago, the HoA shut down all water supply to repair a faulty pipe. Ever since then, the hot water in my unit hasn't been the same. It is lukewarm and not as hot as before.

I tried to convince the management that I am not imagining things. When they came to measure the hot water temperature out of my kitchen faucet, a max temperature of 107F was recorded -- which they said is just fine. 107F is just slightly above the body temperature, and that is the hottest setting in the kitchen?

My question is, is there a minimum acceptable standard for hot water, that an HoA must provide? What is the temperature of your hot water?

I would be grateful for any advice.

That wouldn't be a HOA issue.

Melissa suggested googling this question and here's what I found -

"The Department of Energy recommends having your tank-based hot water heater set to 120 degrees Fahrenheit for most people, but if you've never adjusted the temperature on your hot water heater, it's probably set to 140 degrees, which is the default setting from most manufacturers."

My plumber once told me 140 is too high, and people have been scalded this way, thus the 120 standard. It may be the hot water was set too high to begin with and has been adjusted. If you're taking a shower, it can take some time for the water to warm up to your liking, so that may also be an issue. Nonetheless, notify the board - if others are having the same problem, they may already be aware and are working on it.

A residential hot water temperature of 107 F is not fine. Texas, like other states, requires landlords to provide hot water at a minimum temperature of 120 degrees F. See https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/property-code/prop-sect-92-052.html . I realize JakeS4 lives in a condominium. I think it is possible that the HOA could be argued to be a landlord for the purposes of providing hot water. Still, I think this statute, if not applicable, could at least buttress his case if he needs to use an attorney.

I think it is possible that it takes a few days for a large boiler/water heater, such as that for multi-dwelling service, to heat all the water. Also I would think chances are good that others will complain. Wait ten more days. Report back if the water is still only 107 degrees F or so. Subsequently write a polite letter quoting the statute above. Do not get into a dispute over whether the HOA is a "landlord" just yet. I think this is a sanitation issue and a big deal. If you end up writing this polite letter, raise the issue of sanitation as well. Let the Board think about this.

Hopefully an idiot HOA manager is not involved and arguing on the wrong side of the law.

OP,

A 'hi-rise' has a recirculation system for DHW.

For safety reasons no 'unit' should have over 115 degree water. Albeit many codes PERMIT 120.

For practical economy max outlet temp should be achieved at a fixture within 30 seconds.

There are many types of recirc. systems, many of which require 'balancing'.

Give the new system 7-10 days to 'settle in' and give time for 'call back' service.

Purchase an ACCURATE long stem thermometer.

Run water into a glass or cup WITH the thermometer inserted for 5-10 minutes, many accurate thermometers require 3-7 minutes to 'read'.

It is possible that your previous temperature, to which you were accustomed, was way too high.

The 'typical' comfortable temperature for washing and bathing = 105 degrees F.

IMO, personally, 110 delivered is PERFECT - I have my PRIVATE heater set for 110-115.

BEST OF LUCK

as a resource: Anti-Scald

ps.

for TEXAS:

SBCCI or International Plumbing Code (1996), MAXIMUM 120°F.

Measured at ANY unit.

Since no piping system is perfect, they probably 'aimed' for 110.

Your 107 is 'within the ballpark'.

I will wager 50-50 that when you measure ACCURATELY you have 110

Royal, thank you for the correction. Even the NYC government is saying 120 F is the minimum required, per https://www1.nyc.gov/nyc-resources/service/1815/residential-heat-and-hot-water-requirements .

But on further thought, this fails the common sense test. I hang out from time to time at natural hot springs. Maximum temperature I have seen is typically about 107 F, and I cannot soak in water at this temperature for long. A few degrees more would be intolerable.

see again: https://inspectapedia.com/plumbing/Hot_Water_Temperature_Laws.php#AK

temper the info with knowledge of legionnaire(s) disease prevention and scalding prevention

any holding tank needs to be 140+ to prevent disease

the fixture output needs to be 120- to prevent scalding

for all intents and purposes a commercial hi-rise requires a tempering valve at the tank outlet to meet both requirements

landlord/tenant law was written by lawyers, not plumbers, to ensure adequate supply of hot water

IMO: ..... "shall be supplied to all individual fixture groups at a temperature not less than 105 and not more than 115 (105 through 115)" ..... would be perfect

matters not whether it could be interpreted as inclusive or exclusive, 105-115 or 106-114, as there would be no practical or measurable difference

Kerry,

just for your personal interest

'google' or 'bing' [reverse piping return]

inherently self balancing as all loops have = developed length

If they have it set for 107 in the basement then you probably do NOT have 'hot' water on the 30th floor.

Since your 'neighbors' are having the same issue .................

Piping tends not to be insulated as per 'best practices'.

A new 'system' or a repaired system could have resulted in over-cautious settings.

Y'all need to get together and PUSH for proper temperature (105+) actually delivered.

BEST OF LUCK

For local legal questions re: Texas, consult a Texas attorney.

however

in general, for plumbing:

The plumbing codes define hot water as follows: Hot water - Water at a temperature greater than or equal to 110°F (43°C). This does not mean it is good design to store the hot water at 110°F.

There is not a storage type water heater that I am aware of that has a thermostat that is capable of maintaining a constant and safe hot water outlet temperature. Water heaters should have their temperatures turned up and a temperature actuated mixing valve should be provided on the outlet piping of the water heater. This is because most of the thermostats on storage type water heaters are located near the bottom of the tank to sense the incoming cold water.

see: https://www.phcppros.com/articles/1828-hot-water-system-temperatures-and-the-code

READ IT ALL

GOOD LUCK

Jake,

How long you have to wait for hot water depends on three factors: the distance from the water heater, the diameter of the piping, and the flow rate. The effect of distance is pretty obvious: the further hot water has to flow, the longer it will take to get there. With a new house, you can keep plumbing runs short by locating bathrooms and the kitchen near each other.

The effects of pipe diameter and flow rate aren't quite so intuitive. The smaller the diameter, the faster hot water will reach the tap. That's because smaller-diameter pipe holds less water. Fifty feet of 1/2"-diameter pipe holds 0.8 gallons, while the same length of 3/4" pipe holds 1.4 gallons and 1" pipe holds 2.3 gallons. When you're waiting for hot water, all of the cooled-off water sitting in the pipe has to flow out before hot water from the water heater reaches the tap.

The flow-rate of a faucet or showerhead affects the wait for hot water because it governs how quickly the cooled water sitting in the pipes will be emptied out. If you have a water-conserving bathroom faucet that delivers only a half-gallon per minute (gpm) and most of the piping in the house has 3/4" piping, a 50-foot run from the water heater requires almost three minutes to get hot water to your sink.

The irony is that even as the flow rates of faucets and showerheads has dropped, plumbing codes are increasingly mandating larger-diameter piping--so the wait times for hot water have increased--a fact that's exacerbated by the larger houses we're building.

Evidently the recirculation on 'your' riser is inoperative or ineffective.

Can not 'trouble shoot' from here.

5 minutes is not so bad, except for the costly waste.

BEST OF LUCK

perfect

an 'on site' (Jake's site) inspection would not be a bad idea IF, repeat IF, he is the only one having a problem

perhaps the 'others' find it acceptable to WAIT ?!

too many variables at this point to troubleshoot 'long distance'

(sabbatical is apparently over)

Thanks Kerry and Royal. It is good to feel supported and heard.

What is noteworthy is: my hot water problem began right after the pipe repair, which took place on my floor. The repair happened in the common area on my floor. (I do not know if they had entered my unit, but they shouldn't have without my permission.)

Could it be that the plumbers changed or messed up something during the repair?

The lead building engineer is also "complicit" in this. Him and the HoA manager closed my case.

I could go to the board, but I do feel powerless in part because I have the smallest percentage share in the HoA. The board members consist of influential businessmen, high-powered attorneys and so on..

What are my options here? Late last night, I had to wait over 10 minutes and it never even got hot. Seems to be a function of outside temperature. It got very cold last night. Not having reliable hot water is just too much for me -- I would consider selling it but I bought it 4 months ago.

Well, I do think your next step is to hire a plumber to assess your particular situation in your unit. Might be best if he specializes in high rises? He will write on your invoice if he sees nothing in your unit that can explain your problem. He might even write what he thinks IS the problem.

Re: the board: after your own plumber's opinion, submit it and a plea in writing to the board to take a new look at your situation. Ask that it be an agenda item at the next board meeting. They do have the power to get a new plumber, to, for instance, check the work that was done in the common area on your floor. Royal suggests some things that might have gone wrong.

We've had 4 building engineers in the past 12 years and some knew very little about plumbing specializing in other things. The one we have now knows a lot about it and is really good. Good luck.