Need help, Dysfunctional board abusive MC

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

I, "we" my fiance and I are homeowners in a community in Illinois that I believe to be worth the time and effort to be the best it can be. Our home is not just a home it is our future, it becomes who you are.

I will be running for the board this year to try and make a difference here. We almost decided to move when we found out how "stacked" the deck is against the homeowner. I would like to say after finding this site a little more than a year ago after having a very explosive conversation with the Vice President of our board. It involved a complete lack of communication from and with the board and management company (Management company sent out people to work on our roofs with no warning, no letter. During the process of inspecting the roofs there was a worker on a ladder outside our bathroom window when a member of my family came out of HER bathroom disrobed. She was not amused. He thought it to be funny, I assured him it was not in some not so nice very explosive conversation.

The first question, recently we found through the tax assessors office and a title (deed) search that our Vice President is not a "Homeowner on record". He quit claim deed his share of the property on Jan,12th 2017. He then reran for his position in November of 2017. And subsequently, he has been caring on and acting his role as Vice President signing off on various duties and approving motions in meetings.

I would like to know the what, the who and the how of what to do with this information. Yes the declarations and CPA say only the "homeowner on record" can be a board director. I find this to be very alarming information. He's legally according to their laws and rules cannot be a board director and he's been doing a lot of community business!

Our annual meeting is coming up soon and I have so many additional questions to ask. I so choose to do this on this site because after reading hundreds of pages of messages, answers and replies I found many of you quite knowledgeable. If you know of other websites that would help me in my journey to help make our community a better place please let me know.

Thank You, hope to hear from you soon!!! Paul,

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Well step back from your PERSONAL vendetta first. Yes. You clearly have a personal vendetta for your reasons to be running for the board. This is such the WRONG approach. It wins you no favors. Plus this person most likely will remain in their position or on the board if you win. How's that going to work for you?

The reasons you become a board members is NOT for yourself but for the community. If you can't step back and see the Forrest, then all your going to see is trees. You can't say "Timber" to one without knocking that one tree into others. The purpose of being elected to the board is to represent those who voted to get you there.

Now do you think your going to a "hero" and save the world from this Vice-President by getting in office? Then your going about this the wrong way.... Plus I can't see a Vice-President position having that much power because out of ALL the offices, that's the one office with the least responsibility. They just take over when President can't make a meeting. They don't become President if the President quits. It's NOT the government.

So pick up your big boy pants and look at the world around you. Stop the single vision. You think this advice is tough or out of line? Wait till you run for office or are in office...

Former HOA President

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Well step back from your PERSONAL vendetta first. Yes. You clearly have a personal vendetta for your reasons to be running for the board. This is such the WRONG approach. It wins you no favors. Plus this person most likely will remain in their position or on the board if you win. How's that going to work for you?

The reasons you become a board members is NOT for yourself but for the community. If you can't step back and see the Forrest, then all your going to see is trees. You can't say "Timber" to one without knocking that one tree into others. The purpose of being elected to the board is to represent those who voted to get you there.

Now do you think your going to a "hero" and save the world from this Vice-President by getting in office? Then your going about this the wrong way.... Plus I can't see a Vice-President position having that much power because out of ALL the offices, that's the one office with the least responsibility. They just take over when President can't make a meeting. They don't become President if the President quits. It's NOT the government.

So pick up your big boy pants and look at the world around you. Stop the single vision. You think this advice is tough or out of line? Wait till you run for office or are in office...

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Is this VP, Paul, running for reelection as a director at the election coming up?

You could write to everyone on the board with pics of the evidence that he's not an owner. Cite your governing docs exactly on this point too. Ask the Board to remove him from the office of VP, which is easy. If they refuse, nothing you can do expect go to court somehow, which is too expensive to think about. Removing him from the board may be harder.

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Really sorry you got that out of what I wrote. I really do care for this community. I was just trying to give an example of his attitude. If It was personal I wouldn't have waited a year and a half from the incident. It's not just him, our President the manager from the MC run this community as if it were their own. The other three board members hardly know anything about what is going on. I've approached them and talked with them, they say they struggle with the situation because they get told The President and Vice president can make all the decisions. Thanks anyway Melissa,

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Kerry, no his term is from November 2017 to November of 2019. The President, the vice president and I should say the manager from the MC are the ones who run everything here in our community. The three other board members are left out until they actually get to the board meetings. I really do care for the greater good of the whole community. I alone can't do anything, but I've been talking to as many neighbors as possible. And a lot are stating they are not happy either but don't know what to do. These two seem to keep getting elected every time they come up for office no matter who runs against them.

Are you saying even if I have proof he's not a "homeowner on record" they can still do whatever they want?

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Paul

Typically 2-3 BOD Members, along with the MC will do the lion's share of work with the other 2-3 being useless.

Your first task should be to get on the BOD and hopefully with some new members. Typically the BOD will then call for an Officer's Election. That will be the time for you to raise the issue of ownership. Let the BOD decide. This tells you how the BOD leans and if not in your favor then you work hard, win allies, and wait for another election.

You might enlist a fellow owner to raise the ownership question prior to the actual election but you keep your hands clean at this time.

In one HOA, it took us two election cycles to be sure a pain in the butt President was not re-elected by the BOD and another cycle to flush him and his cronies off the BOD.

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Also Melissa they do seem to have that much power. We have gone to the meetings to talk to them and afterward several of us received warning violations of things we had done in our yards years ago. And like Kerry said the price of an attorney is expensive.

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Thank you John, I do realize it will be a long process, but I do think the area is worth the effort. It can be frustrating when our fees go up every year. (16 out of the last 20) Vendor fees go up. the management fees go up. many services have been cut out. But the management company keeps telling us we need more money.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/04/2018 10:27 AM
Well step back from your PERSONAL vendetta first. Yes. You clearly have a personal vendetta for your reasons to be running for the board. This is such the WRONG approach. It wins you no favors. Plus this person most likely will remain in their position or on the board if you win. How's that going to work for you?

The reasons you become a board members is NOT for yourself but for the community. If you can't step back and see the Forrest, then all your going to see is trees. You can't say "Timber" to one without knocking that one tree into others. The purpose of being elected to the board is to represent those who voted to get you there.

Now do you think your going to a "hero" and save the world from this Vice-President by getting in office? Then your going about this the wrong way.... Plus I can't see a Vice-President position having that much power because out of ALL the offices, that's the one office with the least responsibility. They just take over when President can't make a meeting. They don't become President if the President quits. It's NOT the government.

So pick up your big boy pants and look at the world around you. Stop the single vision. You think this advice is tough or out of line? Wait till you run for office or are in office...

I like this advice Melissa. I just submitted my nomination for a BOD spot. I can no longer sit idly by and watch the current board and the PM keep throwing our association dues away to vendors that perform half-assed work and nobody verifies the work that was billed was actually performed. I have talked to a handful of owners and we all agree it is time to 86 the management company.

Richard maybe you can answer this because you are a PM. It is part of your duty as a PM when your managed properties are having major work being done like a rock refresh or the common areas are being remodeled, isn't it your job to make sure the work you bid out is performed?

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Paul, some HOAs do not require the officers (President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer) to be HOA members. Some HOAs do not require even directors to be members. Can you get a copy of your HOA's Bylaws and confirm whether your HOA's bylaws require that the Vice-President be a HOA member? Also do your Bylaws require directors to be HOA members?

Also, please confirm: Is your HOA still under Declarant control?

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

LetA

Since I am in the Central Time Zone and Richard is in California, I am probably up earlier and will provide our response to your question regarding property/community manager follow up on association projects.

We own a property management company, and are community managers ourselves. We believe Richard is as well. Our belief is the property/community manager is responsible for all aspects of managing a project on behalf of a client, including a post completion review, sometimes with the contractor and board members or other owners depending on the situation. We have a portfolio management company; management of projects by on-site management should follow a similar process except for the project management billed hours and mileage charges.

We also believe the PM/CM is responsible for project milestone reviews (if appropriate), as well as being accessible to the contractor, contractor personnel, and anyone else involved while the project is in process. Clearly our involvement is tempered by the extent of the project; even if it only involves removing a dead tree we schedule a visit the next day to ensure the work was performed as agreed under the contract and the area has been properly cleaned up.

Taking this a step further, our basic contracts for service do not include management of complex projects in the monthly management fee. If a client wishes to undertake a project which will require on-call trips to the site, milestone reviews between regularly scheduled reviews, and additional time for meetings with contractors, vendors, and others, we prepare an estimate of anticipated project management expenses (time and mileage primarily) and submit it to the Board for consideration along with the contractor bids. We try as much as possible to incorporate project management into our regular review or meeting cycles but it is not always possible to do so.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

IMO, LetA should have started a new post. I don't see how it or Bill's generous reply help the OP here.

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Nice LetA learned a whole lot from that...... anyway Maybe you two can exchange fruitcakes this Christmas.

So you're saying even though it clearly states in the Declaration you need to be "Homeowner" and he is not. Hasn't been since Jan 12, 2017. He runs again in November of 2017. It's not an issue? Then how is anything in the Declarations to be taken seriously? Or is this plainly on him and his conscious until someone brings it forward?

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

This is getting confusing.

Some basics ... if you have a board member who cannot t be a board member because he is not a resident and the CCRs and/or Bylaws are clear that he must be a member, then he must be removed.

Your job, then, is to rally other property owners to insist the current board uphold the CCRs and/or Bylaws. In addition to running for the board, you and other owners need to sign a petition to removed the illegal director, you and other owners need to attend all board meetings and insist there as well (and ensure it is in the minutes), if the HOA has an attorney on retainer, you need to write the attorney with the same demand, same with the management company ... registered mail to ensure they get them.

These are the basics of taking the neighborhood back from a board that is not following its own rules.

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

Augustin, the by-laws state that board members have to be an owner, a voting member and or both.

Section: 4.01 Voting rights state the owner can designate a voting member, so this could be proper.

Thank you this is what I needed to learn. Thanks again!

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Nope, Paul. this is not what you need to know. 4.01 means that an owner can have someone else be his proxy in an election for directors or some other election that all owners vote in.

You need to show us that your bylaws say to BE A DIRECTOR the person must be an owner. You need to show us that an OFFICER, like VP must be an owner. Please cut & paste the words, do not summarize them. It'd be unusual that this is in your CC&Rs, but if it is, please quote it exactly.

George's advice looks very good. You must put pressure on the board. And you must rally your fellow owners to do the same.

(George may have accidentally caused some confusion.) All renters and Owners are "residents." But only Owners may be directors and officers if you're correctly quoting your bylaws. I do worry that you're not.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 11/04/2018 8:50 PM

Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/04/2018 10:27 AM
Well step back from your PERSONAL vendetta first. Yes. You clearly have a personal vendetta for your reasons to be running for the board. This is such the WRONG approach. It wins you no favors. Plus this person most likely will remain in their position or on the board if you win. How's that going to work for you?

The reasons you become a board members is NOT for yourself but for the community. If you can't step back and see the Forrest, then all your going to see is trees. You can't say "Timber" to one without knocking that one tree into others. The purpose of being elected to the board is to represent those who voted to get you there.

Now do you think your going to a "hero" and save the world from this Vice-President by getting in office? Then your going about this the wrong way.... Plus I can't see a Vice-President position having that much power because out of ALL the offices, that's the one office with the least responsibility. They just take over when President can't make a meeting. They don't become President if the President quits. It's NOT the government.

So pick up your big boy pants and look at the world around you. Stop the single vision. You think this advice is tough or out of line? Wait till you run for office or are in office...

I like this advice Melissa. I just submitted my nomination for a BOD spot. I can no longer sit idly by and watch the current board and the PM keep throwing our association dues away to vendors that perform half-assed work and nobody verifies the work that was billed was actually performed. I have talked to a handful of owners and we all agree it is time to 86 the management company.

Richard maybe you can answer this because you are a PM. It is part of your duty as a PM when your managed properties are having major work being done like a rock refresh or the common areas are being remodeled, isn't it your job to make sure the work you bid out is performed?

No

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Kerry is correct - I meant to say owner, not resident ...

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

I am having trouble copying and pasting from the PDF so I am going to type the areas word for word please let me know if this is the areas you need to determine the correct answers.

From the Declarations: 4.03 THE BOARD: From and after the Turnover date, the board shall consist of individuals provided for in section 5.01 of the by-laws, each of whom shall be an owner or a voting member. The board shall be elected at each annual meeting of the owners as provided in the by-laws.

From the By-Laws:4.01 Voting rights: The residential association shall have one class of membership. There shall be one individual with respect to each dwelling unit who shall be entitled to vote at any meeting of the owners (the "Voting Members"). If the owner of a Dwelling Unit is one individual then such individual shall be the voting Member. If the record ownership of a dwelling unit shall be in more than one individual or if the Owner is a Trustee, corporation, partnership or other legal entity, then the Voting Member shall be designated by the owner or owners in writing to the board, and if in the case of multiple individual owners no designation is givin, then the board may,at its election, recognize an individual owner of the dwelling unit as the Voting Member for such Dwelling Unit. Anyor all Owners may be present at any meeting of the Owners, but the voting rights shall be vested exclusivly in the Voting Members; provided, however, that a Voting Member may vote either in person or by proxy executed in writing by the Voting Member or his duly authorized attorney-in-fact and filed with the secretary before the meeting. No proxy shall be valid after (11) eleven months from the date of its execution. Each Voting Member shall have one vote for each Dwelling Unit which he represents.

5.03 BOARDS AFTER TURNOVER DATE: At the first meeting of the owners (which shall be held no later than thirty (30) days after the turnover date) the Voting Members shall elect the initial Board (as provided in the act) in the manner here in after provided to replace the Develooper designated Board established under 5.02. From and after such meeting, or both. Within sixty (60) days after the election of a majority of the Board other than those designated by the Developer, The Developer shall deliver to the Board the following documents and others as required by the Act:

ARTICLE VI: OFFICERS, 6.01 OFFICERS: The officers of the Residental Association shall be a President, oneor more Vice Presidents,a Secretary,a Treasurer, and such assistants to such officerss as the Board may deem appropriate.All Officers shall hold office at the at the discretion of the Board. Officers may succeed themselfs in office. The President,Srecretary and Treasurer shall be Directors and all others may, butneed not be, Directors.

This is what I could find please let me know if this is it? It sounds as if Any "Owner" can "Designate" anyone to be their Voting Member?

And back to my original question? statement? if "He" made her the trustee, then it says that too! "He" becomes her Voting Member right?

Our community is thirty years in, and its landscaping and buildings are failing at a greater rate than they are being replaced! I Sincerely care about this area, But the wat the 3 of them run this place is sad! They have completely forgot that the MC works for us! Not the other way around! The MC we had before this group was so much better! So much more detailed and organized! We don't even get a final report at the end of the year on what they did with our money!

Thanks for the help : I have so many more questions,

YoungP (California)
Posts: 13

Posted:

Dear PaulW9,

To effect any meaningful change, you and other like minded members have to get elected to the board to take it over. The only advantage of one or two dissenting board members is presumably access to information regular members otherwise wouldn't be entitled to and a front row seat to see how the board really operates.

In order to test the water, run for the board. Also have other people (wife, husband, girlfriend, boyfriend, grandparents, parents, relatives, neighbors, friends, co-workers, etc) run for the board. If they are disqualified, expecting an explanation isn't unreasonable. This most likely one you'll be given is they're not eligible because they aren't owners, members, titleholder, etc.

If the association is so screwed up as you represent, IMHO it's too much work to try to save. You're life will be consumed by trying to fix all the problems. And chances are you'll probably be blamed for everything.

Then take your documentation to the local fair housing office; file a discrimination lawsuit against the association and management company. Take the money and move to a better neighborhood.

Park

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Posted By YoungP on 11/06/2018 11:28 AM
If the association is so screwed up as you represent, IMHO it's too much work to try to save. You're life will be consumed by trying to fix all the problems. And chances are you'll probably be blamed for everything.
I laughed at this not because it's funny but because it's so very true. The chances are 100% that you will be blamed for everything.

However, Park, that last part about a discrimination lawsuit looks like a non-sequiter. How does housing discrimination figure into any of this?

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Bad quoting on my part. This was my reply:

I laughed at this not because it's funny but because it's so very true. The chances are 100% that you will be blamed for everything.

However, Park, that last part about a discrimination lawsuit looks like a non-sequiter. How does housing discrimination figure into any of this?

YoungP (California)
Posts: 13

Posted:

GenoS,

according to the PaulW9, there's a board member who isn't even on title to any property in the association. if this is true, then one could put forth the argument that its effectively a constructive waiver of the CC&Rs regarding board member eligibility.

when uncle jim joe bob or aunt sally submit their candidate application and are turned down, then it begs the question why they were not allowed to run for the board while another non-member is actually allowed to serve on the board. This is disparate treatment/discrimination.

I think the last thing any real estate professional (ie property management company) would want is a fair housing official suddenly becoming interested in your business.

Park

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By YoungP on 11/06/2018 4:11 PM
GenoS,

according to the PaulW9, there's a board member who isn't even on title to any property in the association. if this is true, then one could put forth the argument that its effectively a constructive waiver of the CC&Rs regarding board member eligibility.

when uncle jim joe bob or aunt sally submit their candidate application and are turned down, then it begs the question why they were not allowed to run for the board while another non-member is actually allowed to serve on the board. This is disparate treatment/discrimination.

I think the last thing any real estate professional (ie property management company) would want is a fair housing official suddenly becoming interested in your business.

Park

OK, I'll buy that as an argument even though I'm not totally convinced. I'm thinking specifically about Florida where the statutes give those eligible to serve on a board some rights. Those rights are not given to those who are not eligible. An association's governing documents, especially the bylaws, also figure in to who is eligible to serve. I still think it's a stretch to say that an ineligible board member blocking the ability of an eligible person to serve is discriminatory if it's not based on race, creed, color, religion, disability, etc.

I guess we'll have to wait for a test case which will depend on which side of the bed the judge got up on.

PaulW9 (Illinois)
Posts: 14

Posted:

A big point I'm trying to make is he knew was doing! It was completely pre-meditated. The By-laws specifically state once you cease to be a homeowner your rights are terminated.

But for a technicality in the Declarations, it says he could possibly be one!

The whole thing stinks bad! The 3 of them (President, Vice President, and manager of the MC) runs our community like their own little communist country! And I am by far not the only one. They have our community scared by the way they word the warnings, and violations sent out. We have no newsletter, we never get notified when they come out to work on anything, they just show up saying the association sent us! We get no financial report at the end of the year, getting only a proposed budget for the following year! And yes they will violate you for anything it's to hard to prove "Selective Enforcement" but it's a cancer in our subdivision. When you bring it up the management company replies "Your not allowed to talk about anybody else".

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808

Posted:

Uh ... not sure the concept of communism applies.

Get busy and take your neighborhood back ...

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

As George advises, Paul, you must rally other ownrs to replace some or all of this board and then fire the PM if all is as bad as you says.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GeorgeS21 on 11/07/2018 11:37 PM
Uh ... not sure the concept of communism applies.

It doesn't.

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaulW9 on 11/04/2018 12:36 PM
Kerry, no his term is from November 2017 to November of 2019. The President, the vice president and I should say the manager from the MC are the ones who run everything here in our community. The three other board members are left out until they actually get to the board meetings. I really do care for the greater good of the whole community. I alone can't do anything, but I've been talking to as many neighbors as possible. And a lot are stating they are not happy either but don't know what to do. These two seem to keep getting elected every time they come up for office no matter who runs against them.

Are you saying even if I have proof he's not a "homeowner on record" they can still do whatever they want?

'Possibly' both the BOD and Mgmt. Co. are unaware that 'he' is no longer a member and therefor ineligible.

Send the association's Registered Agent and the Mgmt. Co. certified mail informing them incl. your 'proof'.

Keep copies, but, DO NOT OPEN envelopes if returned. Let the judge do that (open them).

Malfeasance on the part of director = personal liability NOT covered by the association's D&O insurance.

See what happens.

RoyalP
Posts: 1,104

Posted:

https://www.ilsos.gov/corporatellc/

enter your HOA's corporate name