Manager (singular)

A recent post brought this to mind.

I have noticed a confusing situation on some posts about how we refer to property managers. All sorts of abreviations and names. Maybe we need a standard acronym to refer to different types.

On that subject, any one have any sense of what the overall picture for HOA's and Condos as far as how they are managed. We can assume they all have a BOD, but I wouldn't bet on it, but, nothing in any law I know about requires any kind of specific qualifications. We are talking big money here and it seems to be catch as catch can about who really pulls the strings. A single person working out of their home can accumulate an awful lot of power over the years, that's for sure. Again I go back to what I foresee as big changes in the HOA and Condo business and that is a huge change in the demographic of these associations that is occuring rapidly; absentee ownership.

Anyone want to comment about Mom and Pop cottage industry of Condo management?
Not owners in Regime but paid employes?

RobertR1.... I understand fully where you are coming from and headed towards...... In Florida we have Professional Management Companies...then we also have "singular" C.A.M.....Community Association Managers.. Our HOA has the later.....He is one person who actually lives within the community and we also have a volunteer management commitee that oversees him, gives him direction etc.....The management committee also serves as duty managers from 5p.m. to 7 a.m. 7 days a week ...The CAM is only called in a major emergency...

As far as our BOD...... Last year it was brought up by some rather influencial people here , that people running for a position on the board were not qualified to be in that position.... I, as a common sense person knew and understood what they were saying , others were "offended" by the remark....After all we are a not for profit corporation with annual revnues of over $500,000.00 a year , and they were concerned with say a bored house wife /house husband running a corp with no experience.....They felt that the BOD should be comprised of persons who had some experience with the running of a business.......I understood all that and appreciated it..BUT,,, it is against the By Laws to have that be a prerequisite.....All OWNERS are entitled to run for a position on the BOD.....It's with active participation of the members that keeps us in check.....

A good friend/neighbor ran for the BOD and got elected.....He went against all who supported him and put him in office at the very first meeting about RV'S............ Bad move and he will never be elected again....he went to the " dark side " as they say here....I didn't agree with his vote-- but he is still my friend and we ont discuss BOD stuff anymore.......

Would I like for people who run for the BOD have some sort of qualifications....YES...........LindaC3

Thanks to Linda and Joe,
I hope I can retain all those CM's etc. I'll stick them in a file somewhere. Incidewntly Joe, I do read the material you reccomend and really believe it is helpful.

To get back. Is there states that require a profession qualified to run HOA and Condo. Our budget is something like 250 - 300K a year. I consder us border line about professional management companies. Our salary expenses is a big secret and I am sure you all have lots of fun trying to pin down expenses for a single item when the BOD doesn't seem to agree those figures are public information. Be that as it may.

I need some comments about the experiences you all have had with the various type managers or management company.

To Lindas desire to have BOD with some sort of qualifications. I don't believe that is the problem, I do believe boards have too many people that have personal agenda, have no ability to communicate, flat out don't contribute, same old stuff. And don't forget that single manager that has a personal agenda and the motivation to see his agendas are first and foremost. Let me say I am not being personal towards anyone but managers are not without personal interests, and the less the influence of the board, the more power the managers take. Being a manager requires skill, honesty, education, motivation, social techniques, reason and God knows what all, but some or good and some are bad.

Abby,
I'm a hunter and picker,
I click on all sorts of stuff I read in papers and whereever and usually check out any url posted here.
I belong to several and even though I have them bookmarked I rarely go there. This is just a loose collection of sites that I would not recommend to anyone unless I was referring to them. Have you checked the search feature on this site? Did you Google HOA or Condo management sites. Lots of stuff there.
But anyway, I just sort of stuck here. Good information, very well managed. I especially like the input and posts of the people that, (to me) run this site. No names because I would forget someone, but the folks that pull the string here have my sincere appreciation. There is more than plenty here to keep me busy and out of trouble, and I am much smarter than when I got here.

Hi Robert,

First, a site question: I write, someone writes back with great info. First inclination is to respond with a thank-you. But, don't want to junk up the board with "thank-you's." On the other hand, don't want to be rude and not acknowlege the help. Usual protocol?

The BOD is exhausted because the most involved members of the community have been pretty enraged from the start. Buyers were marketed completely on the concept of luxury and were quoted a certain HOA dues price. Buyers came in three categories which seem incompatible with each other: full-time retirees, who want quiet, young professionals who stay up late and want to use the clubhouse and pool with 10 of their closest friends, absentee owners who come on vacation 5X a year, and investors who came in too late and are now renting to college students who seem to want to drink and destroy. (That's four groups, sorry). Retirees have been furious because the dues have gone up three times in the past two years. Their luxury amenities have had damage from the "youngsters" and "renters" so the BOD changed the hours of the clubhouse from 24/7 to closing at 11:00 PM and the pool closing at 9:00 PM. Absentee owners and young professionals bought in part because they could use the facilities late night and early morning (to work-out, etc). They now live in a "prison state" run by "four old men." The BOD has tried to do its best but failed almost completely in getting buy-in by communicating with the community before changing rules and intalling cameras, etc. The Board has felt like they've been putting out fires since the first day, only to be damned by their consituency. Additionally, when anything happens, the president is phoned because our CAM is an 8-5, off-site operation and incidents uniformly occur at night. This is why they've said they won't be running again. There are really only two-hot button issues: dues (which are about to be raised again) and stopping clubhouse/pool damages and violations without terribly restrictive measures. It seems like a big, unhappy mess, but I'm sure that's because we are new and because others haven't read the REAL nightmares on this Board! Looking over this, I want to hit delete - it doesn't ask for any concrete advice. I promise, short, specific posts in the future!

Joe, an excellent explanation.

We have a Management Co (CMCA) who provides us with a Property Manager (CAM).

Abigail, think about the ramifications of the HOA hiring an individual. We considered this and voted against it. Are you willing to be a boss? You have payroll, taxes, insurance, benefits etc. Who will be responsible for the employee? What happens when the next board comes in and decides they do not want this person? Hire and fire every year or two. We did not want the responsibility. Let the management company handle it all. They can do whatever you contract them to do.

Work with the person you have. Every PM needs direction at a new property. They have to know what you as a board and community require of them. He will learn from you and hopefully you can learn from him. Keeping this in mind we are moving forward, with our PM and all is falling into place.

Managers and licensing - this question has been argued since condo's first started to bloom. The early problem, which continues today, is that states really don't want to take on any more regulatory responsibility, and so if the subject comes up, they want to place the licensing of CAM's under the Real Estate Licensing Boards, which means they will collect the fees, but not pay much attention to what goes on. In Florida, since they already had a Condo Division in the state government, they just folded the CAM licensing under that. Since Florida's education and licensing courses were prepared by and are run by CAI, so their basic license course is about the same as the CMCA course.

What licensing gives you is a place to complain to and a remote chance of achieving some satisfaction in your complaint. What it also does is add to the assessments as the costs are passed along to the associations.

As for certifying an individual as a competent manager, it only means that the manager passed the minimal requirements and exam. It doesn't mean they know how to apply anything they may have learned in the class(es).

The management industry has been trying for years to determine what makes a good CAM. There is no real consensus, as each association and every board (along with every election) changes the bar that the manager must reach. The problem of changing and fluid expectations is one of the very real problems that managers have to deal with. In the non-profit world, like CAI, or the Red Cross, the professional staff manages their problems by managing who gets on the board. By setting up numerous committees that potential board members have to work their way through, they have the ability to both educate and pre-select those who will be evaluating their performance in the future. If a CAM tried that, all kinds of nasty accusations would fly about manipulation of elections. But without it, they often get people who have a different set of expectations, along with an unknown standard for evaluation.

An example regarding the importance of performance standards -- a local management company whose owner I've known for 30 years has a reputation for good management because they stay small, and have employees who have been in the industry for a lot of years. In an association they had managed for over 15 years, he started hearing that things wre going boad and that there was a growing group who were running for the board on the platform of changing management. Since this site was being managed by his best manager (a PCAM) he needed to find out what the problem really was. The first thing he checked was how much time the manager spent working for that association. Sometimes the demands of other clients force a reduction in time spent on a site and that can be a problem. But in this case, the manager's hours for this client had almost tripled in the past twelve months. He called the board members, but they said the manager was doing fine and that it was only "a few bad apples" causing the problems. (No management company owner can publicly acknowldge a dissident group - management answers to the board, not the owners - but no owner "pooh-pooh's" them either - they may be a majority of the next board) But the time increase was the clue--in talking with the manager, she said that she was spending more and more times calling owners to apologize for the delay in handling their work orders. And there it was, in one year, the work orders from this condo association had increased from an average of 1.1 work orders per unit per year, to over 6 per unit per year, an almost 600% increase. As a result, their standard 48 hour response for non-emergencies had fallen to more than a week. No wonder there were upset owners. What had happened was that a large number of minor structural items, i.e. gutters, shutters, building trim etc. had become loose, or blocked, or failed. The manager had seen the trend and asked the board to bring in contractors to inspect and fix (or do some preventive maintenance) the growing problems. They board had rejected that, as it would have meant a major budget deficit, and since the problems were minor, they didn't fall in the reserves realm. However, this hadn't been communicated to the owners, who still had the original expectations. There were numerous system failures here - the manager for not raising the problems sooner to the company owner, or emphasizing the seriousness of it more strongly to the board; the board, for not taking the problems these items were creating more seriously, and not communicating what was going on to the board; and yes - the owners, for not communicating to the board why they were unhappy, instead of just blaming "management".

In an earlier question I briefly covered what to look for in a manager:

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/view/topic/forumid/1/postid/18764/Default.aspx

To that I would like to add that contracts should contain the standards by which the manager and management company are to be judged, so that everyone isn't trying to figure out where the line is. If you want complaints responded to in 2 business days, then say so and be prepared to pay for it and communicate this to the owners. Don't set the standards after the contract is signed. And, if the manager fails to meet the standards, the board should sit down with the manager's supervisor, detail the problems, work to put a plan to correct them, agree on the time frame and how it will be monitored, and then go---it's usually easier to fix a problem than replace a company. I know it doesn't always work, but it should be the first step.

Sorry this was so long.

Joe

Gil

I'm assuming you're in Florida as it's the only state with a CAM license (or Nevada with the CAM certificate). The basic coursework needed to acquire that license would have only an overview of parliamentary procedure, along with overviews on a hundred other items, but not the detail level to be knowledgeable about the "Rules". The individual could choose to study that more in-depth at a later time, but it probably wouldn't have much to do with their certification.

Joe

Gil,
Read Joes' post above. Does your documents refer to what rules control meetings. Robert's Rules should be followed in any dispute. If you have an owner knowledgeable with Parlimentary Procedures, ask them to give lessons to PM or CAM.

Joe,
Great synopsis. I feel the states have in the past and present for some to bend to special interest groups and I suspect because the Community living didn't involve the # it does now, they just didn't give it the attention it deserves. Now pressures are being put on the states to provide some leadership and laws specific to our problems. In the Florida effort with their Ombudsman, they are going through some tough times because of (IMO) the ground work at the state legal level has not been established. I read that complaints to the Forida office is so backlogged it will be years before some cases are heard. In SC they State recently appointed a Mortgage Fraud Panel, but even though I am sure the motivation is good, it is way too little, too late and didn't address the reasons these mortgage problems were allowed to happen and that reason was pure and simple ,"greed to make a few bucks on the part of lenders, banks, realators and individual bottom feeders that scour the land looking for ways to invest for a quick profit."

I am just as guilty as the next guy that has all the problems figured out and unable to make changes, but loves to throw grenadas into the tent. On the premise that if things get stirred up, some good will come of it.

I am curious about conflict of interest of a Manager and her other business. Our manager is also our landscape Manager, and when we need to get a hold of her, her mail box is always full and she never returns phone calls to inform us that she received our calls and the problem we have take for ever to get resolved. When we complaine to the BOD, they then get on her to get it done. Our BOD claim for the little she get for the managerment job, she does a good job. If that was true, why is so many people upset about her and her responsiblitie to the Homeowners issues about getting things fixed. I was under the impression that the manager should be aware of the property and checking out complaints when received and not charge us for coming out to the propety to check it out. I thought that was what she gets paid for. Her /husband is the landscaping Co who does our property and gets a pretty good salary. If she sees something's wrong with the property when she is on site, she should let the BOD know, whether it is a lawm problem or a propety problem such as lights or broken sprinkler heads, gate problems, etc.and not charge separate prices for letting us know that a sprinkler is broken because she saw it was broke when she was checking the lawns as the lawnscape person and then charge us again because she was here as the manager as well.
Do you understand what I mean?
She attends all the board meetings and stay thru out the whole meeting with the HOA. We have a seperate company that takes care of billing and making yearly budgets, and letting the BOD know who has not paid their dues each month. We have a secretary on the Board who takes care of office business. I think she should discuss her issues and then leave the meeting.
I am so new at this kind of living, that I am sorry that I bought into a condo.
I love my home but the rest if very stressful.