Can HOA Get Property Lein for Fines Only?

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

I'm current on my maintenance fees but am being threatened with fines if I don't comply with one of my HOA's Pet Policy rules that aren't currently in their by-laws but (per the board director) was voted on during a board meeting and documented in some of their minutes (that I've not seen). In short, I have an emotional support animal that is above the 25 pound weight limit that I had to fight to have the board approve. Now, a year later, they've denied my request to have a second small dog stating that since my first dog is over the weight limit, I can't have a second dog. I told them that I'd have my boyfriend keep the second dog for me (since I already bought her), and they've asked me to put something in writing stating that he'll be keeping the second dog and have also told me that the second dog can't even come visit me. My questions are these:

Based on the current Pet Policy (attached),

1) Am I required to put something in writing regarding the second dog?
2) Can I get fined for a pet visiting for a short time from time to time?
3) If I'm fined for violating the Pet Policy, can the HOA put a lein on my property for just fines and if so, how likely would they do this?

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BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821

Posted:

Are you in a single family home, a townhome, or a condo?

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Jeanie

First, the posting rules stipulate the name of the association should not appear. There's not much you can do about it now but you should have used a marker to black out the association name before you scanned the files.

OK, to your questions:

1. Do you have to give the Board something in writing about the second pet? I would say no, as long as you are not keeping it on the premises you are not in violation of the documents you posted. Although I do not recommend you use this language, it is none of the Association's business where the second dog is kept or by whom.

2. Can the Board forbid brief visits? Theoretically I suppose they can but stating the dog cannot visit you is virtually unenforceable. What if your visitor has a support dog? What if your boyfriend does whatever is necessary to designate the second dog his support dog? Can the Board stipulate visitors cannot be accompanied by pets, much less support animals? I don't think so. There is also the matter of equality of treatment: the Board cannot impose such a rule on you and not on everyone else in the Association.

3. Can the Board file liens if you do not pay the penalty? Yes, but the validity of the out of compliance situation may be in question. If the second dog does not live with you, where and how are you not in compliance? On what basis would fines be applied? That determination would have to be ultimately made in court if the parties could not come to agreement.

A lien doesn't come into play until you wish to sell your property. It can sit there for years and years. I'm not certain about condominiums but I do know in Texas a property in a HOA cannot be foreclosed upon for unpaid fines, past due interest, penalties, etc.

It depends on how far you wish to take this. You are well within your rights to ask to see documentation of Board decisions regarding the two pet rule and the 40 pound maximum weight limit. If your support dog is over 25 pounds, the board does have the discretion to not allow you to keep a second dog. However, that rule has to be applied to every owner in the association with two dogs exactly the same way. Can the Board prove it has done so?

I have the impression you do not have a good relationship with one or more members of the Board. If that is the case, you may wish to see what you can do to mend fences, if they can be mended.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Barbara, the documents she posted indicate it is a condominium association.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Jeanie,

It's not clear how far you have taken this issue, but if you have not already read this, it has good info on ESAs:
https://www.animallaw.info/article/faqs-emotional-support-animals

If you feel that you have been discriminated against by the association, you can file a complaint with HUD at:
https://www.hud.gov/program_offices/fair_housing_equal_opp/online-complaint

I'm with the others that any pets not residing in your condo are non of the association's business and would not sign anything relating to same.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568

Posted:

This is written for North Carolina. It has helped me explain to owners why the Board can ban stereo speakers and surround sounds along with enforcing a weight limit or number of dogs.

Perhaps you can find out if Texas feels the same way.

http://communityassociationmanagement.com/c49-legal-compliance/c57-ask-the-experts/how-to-decipher-hoa-pet-rules/

PatJ1 (North Carolina)
Posts: 568

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PatJ1 on 09/12/2018 11:06 AM
This is written for North Carolina. It has helped me explain to owners why the Board can ban stereo speakers and surround sounds along with enforcing a weight limit or number of dogs.

Perhaps you can find out if Texas feels the same way.

http://communityassociationmanagement.com/c49-legal-compliance/c57-ask-the-experts/how-to-decipher-hoa-pet-rules/

can NOT ban. No edit feature : (

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

HUD sample letter for support animal:

Sample letter for Companion Animal

As per: http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/PIRC/DocumentsAbstracts/Disability-Law-Center-R8/Letters/DLC-Animal-Letter/Sample-letter-for-Companion-Animal.doc

DATE

NAME OF PROFESSIONAL (therapist, physician, psychiatrist, rehabilitation counselor)
ADDRESS

Dear [HOUSING AUTHROITY/LANDLORD]:

[NAME OF TENANT] is my patient, and has been under my care since [DATE]. I am intimately familiar with his/her history and with the functional limitations imposed by his/her disability. He/She meets the definition of disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Fair Housing Act, and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

Due to mental illness, [FIRST NAME] has certain limitations regarding [SOCIAL INTERACTION/COPING WITH STRESS/ANXIETY, ETC]. In order to help alleviate these difficulties, and to enhance his/her ability to live independently and to fully use and enjoy the dwelling unit you own and/or administer, I am prescribing an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability.

I am familiar with the voluminous professional literature concerning the therapeutic benefits of assistance animals for people with disabilities such as that experienced by [FIRST NAME]. Upon request, I will share citations to relevant studies, and would be happy to answer other questions you may have concerning my recommendation that [FULL NAME OF TENANT] have an emotional support animal. Should you have additional question, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Signature

[NAME OF PROFESSIONAL]

BOLD emphasis added

The HOA is ENCORAGED to obtain the above 'certification' AND to 'check it out' with the provider.

One must actually be DISABLED to have an 'emotional support animal'.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Sorry about the name of the Association not being blocked out. If I could delete the attachments and re-submit them I would.

Thank you for your input, I really appreciate it.

As far as me having a bad relationship with one of the Board members, you are right, however it's not just me... it's the majority of the condo owners. The Board Director runs the Association like a dictator, and I doubt even asks the other Board members for their input on requests such as mine. We owners feel like we have no rights at all and feel extremely controlled. I recently received a $225 fine for not turning in my annual Information Form by the deadline, with no warning whatsoever. The woman who lives above me received one as well. It's quite sad.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaaN on 09/12/2018 12:45 PM
HUD sample letter for support animal:

Sample letter for Companion Animal

As per: http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/PIRC/DocumentsAbstracts/Disability-Law-Center-R8/Letters/DLC-Animal-Letter/Sample-letter-for-Companion-Animal.doc

DATE

NAME OF PROFESSIONAL (therapist, physician, psychiatrist, rehabilitation counselor)
ADDRESS

Dear [HOUSING AUTHROITY/LANDLORD]:

[NAME OF TENANT] is my patient, and has been under my care since [DATE]. I am intimately familiar with his/her history and with the functional limitations imposed by his/her disability. He/She meets the definition of disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Fair Housing Act, and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

Due to mental illness, [FIRST NAME] has certain limitations regarding [SOCIAL INTERACTION/COPING WITH STRESS/ANXIETY, ETC]. In order to help alleviate these difficulties, and to enhance his/her ability to live independently and to fully use and enjoy the dwelling unit you own and/or administer, I am prescribing an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability.

I am familiar with the voluminous professional literature concerning the therapeutic benefits of assistance animals for people with disabilities such as that experienced by [FIRST NAME]. Upon request, I will share citations to relevant studies, and would be happy to answer other questions you may have concerning my recommendation that [FULL NAME OF TENANT] have an emotional support animal. Should you have additional question, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Signature

[NAME OF PROFESSIONAL]

BOLD emphasis added

The HOA is ENCORAGED to obtain the above 'certification' AND to 'check it out' with the provider.

One must actually be DISABLED to have an 'emotional support animal'.

This is exactly what I have for my SOA, however it's not the SOA that's the issue (directly), it's the second small dog who they're refusing to allow due to my SOA being more than 25 pounds.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

jeanie, doesn't your HOA have to call you to hearings before they can fine you? How can one director (it seems) decide on fines? In most HOAs, including the ones in TX, the Board as a whole voting at meetings must fine owners. In your first post you refer to "they," however. Quite confusing about who's doing what to you.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanieG on 09/12/2018 9:49 AM
I'm current on my maintenance fees but am being threatened with fines if I don't comply with one of my HOA's Pet Policy rules that aren't currently in their by-laws but (per the board director) was voted on during a board meeting and documented in some of their minutes (that I've not seen). In short, I have an emotional support animal that is above the 25 pound weight limit that I had to fight to have the board approve. Now, a year later, they've denied my request to have a second small dog stating that since my first dog is over the weight limit, I can't have a second dog. I told them that I'd have my boyfriend keep the second dog for me (since I already bought her), and they've asked me to put something in writing stating that he'll be keeping the second dog and have also told me that the second dog can't even come visit me. My questions are these:

Based on the current Pet Policy (attached),

1) Am I required to put something in writing regarding the second dog?
2) Can I get fined for a pet visiting for a short time from time to time?
3) If I'm fined for violating the Pet Policy, can the HOA put a lein on my property for just fines and if so, how likely would they do this?

The ESA is not a pet. You can have the second dog.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

In SC we can lien for fines. We cannot foreclose for fines.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 09/12/2018 5:48 PM
jeanie, doesn't your HOA have to call you to hearings before they can fine you? How can one director (it seems) decide on fines? In most HOAs, including the ones in TX, the Board as a whole voting at meetings must fine owners. In your first post you refer to "they," however. Quite confusing about who's doing what to you.

You're right! It IS very confusing about who's doing what! Supposedly we have a Board with 5 members, but only the Board Director seems to make any of the decisions and sends the "nastygrams" to all the residents. I'm not aware of any meeting that was called to vote on my request for a second dog, and she didn't mention a meeting or a vote. Only that I can't have the second dog.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/12/2018 6:07 PM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/12/2018 9:49 AM
I'm current on my maintenance fees but am being threatened with fines if I don't comply with one of my HOA's Pet Policy rules that aren't currently in their by-laws but (per the board director) was voted on during a board meeting and documented in some of their minutes (that I've not seen). In short, I have an emotional support animal that is above the 25 pound weight limit that I had to fight to have the board approve. Now, a year later, they've denied my request to have a second small dog stating that since my first dog is over the weight limit, I can't have a second dog. I told them that I'd have my boyfriend keep the second dog for me (since I already bought her), and they've asked me to put something in writing stating that he'll be keeping the second dog and have also told me that the second dog can't even come visit me. My questions are these:

Based on the current Pet Policy (attached),

1) Am I required to put something in writing regarding the second dog?
2) Can I get fined for a pet visiting for a short time from time to time?
3) If I'm fined for violating the Pet Policy, can the HOA put a lein on my property for just fines and if so, how likely would they do this?

The ESA is not a pet. You can have the second dog.

Is this documented somewhere? That's how I feel because the ESA letter states "As a mental health professional, I therefore recommend that Ms. X be permitted to live with an Emotional Support Animal in her dwelling, despite any rules, policies, procedures or regulations restricting or limiting animals, and be provided any other reasonable accommodations in housing, so Ms. X can enjoy the benefits of fair housing per the Fair Housing Act as amended in 1988." It seems to me that just because my ESA is over 40 pounds that I AM being punished (of sorts) by not being allowed to have a second dog. If there's documentation of this, I'd love to know. Thanks!

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/12/2018 6:10 PM
In SC we can lien for fines. We cannot foreclose for fines.

Same for TX condos. Well, fines can be included, but not foreclose solely on fines.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanieG on 09/12/2018 6:23 PM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/12/2018 6:07 PM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/12/2018 9:49 AM
I'm current on my maintenance fees but am being threatened with fines if I don't comply with one of my HOA's Pet Policy rules that aren't currently in their by-laws but (per the board director) was voted on during a board meeting and documented in some of their minutes (that I've not seen). In short, I have an emotional support animal that is above the 25 pound weight limit that I had to fight to have the board approve. Now, a year later, they've denied my request to have a second small dog stating that since my first dog is over the weight limit, I can't have a second dog. I told them that I'd have my boyfriend keep the second dog for me (since I already bought her), and they've asked me to put something in writing stating that he'll be keeping the second dog and have also told me that the second dog can't even come visit me. My questions are these:

Based on the current Pet Policy (attached),

1) Am I required to put something in writing regarding the second dog?
2) Can I get fined for a pet visiting for a short time from time to time?
3) If I'm fined for violating the Pet Policy, can the HOA put a lein on my property for just fines and if so, how likely would they do this?

The ESA is not a pet. You can have the second dog.

Is this documented somewhere? That's how I feel because the ESA letter states "As a mental health professional, I therefore recommend that Ms. X be permitted to live with an Emotional Support Animal in her dwelling, despite any rules, policies, procedures or regulations restricting or limiting animals, and be provided any other reasonable accommodations in housing, so Ms. X can enjoy the benefits of fair housing per the Fair Housing Act as amended in 1988." It seems to me that just because my ESA is over 40 pounds that I AM being punished (of sorts) by not being allowed to have a second dog. If there's documentation of this, I'd love to know. Thanks!

The ESA is not a pet. It's as if you have no animals at this time, and your rules seem to indicate you do not even need BOD permission for ONE pet, as long as it does not exceed 25 pounds. The second dog is your one and only pet.

This is like saying since you have a wheelchair, you can't have a dog.

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

..... As a mental health professional, I therefore recommend that Ms. X be permitted to live with an Emotional Support Animal in her dwelling, despite any rules, policies, procedures or regulations restricting or limiting animals, and be provided any other reasonable accommodations in housing, so Ms. X can enjoy the benefits of fair housing per the Fair Housing Act as amended in 1988. .....

N/F/G - must be PRESCRIBED as a NECESSARY to every day function, as per:

..... I am prescribing[/] an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability. .....

IMO: you have an Internet Quickie Tauric Ka-Ka 'certificate - GET OVER YOURSELF

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaaN on 09/13/2018 12:40 AM

..... As a mental health professional, I therefore recommend that Ms. X be permitted to live with an Emotional Support Animal in her dwelling, despite any rules, policies, procedures or regulations restricting or limiting animals, and be provided any other reasonable accommodations in housing, so Ms. X can enjoy the benefits of fair housing per the Fair Housing Act as amended in 1988. .....

N/F/G - must be PRESCRIBED as a NECESSARY to every day function, as per:

..... I am prescribing[/] an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability. .....

IMO: you have an Internet Quickie Tauric Ka-Ka 'certificate - GET OVER YOURSELF

That is not true. That is not the definition of an ESA. And, it's a moot point. The BOD has accepted the dog as an ESA, the issue is now another dog.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanieG on 09/12/2018 2:54 PM
Posted By PaaN on 09/12/2018 12:45 PM
HUD sample letter for support animal:

Sample letter for Companion Animal

As per: http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/PIRC/DocumentsAbstracts/Disability-Law-Center-R8/Letters/DLC-Animal-Letter/Sample-letter-for-Companion-Animal.doc

DATE

NAME OF PROFESSIONAL (therapist, physician, psychiatrist, rehabilitation counselor)
ADDRESS

Dear [HOUSING AUTHROITY/LANDLORD]:

[NAME OF TENANT] is my patient, and has been under my care since [DATE]. I am intimately familiar with his/her history and with the functional limitations imposed by his/her disability. He/She meets the definition of disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Fair Housing Act, and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

Due to mental illness, [FIRST NAME] has certain limitations regarding [SOCIAL INTERACTION/COPING WITH STRESS/ANXIETY, ETC]. In order to help alleviate these difficulties, and to enhance his/her ability to live independently and to fully use and enjoy the dwelling unit you own and/or administer, I am prescribing an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability.

I am familiar with the voluminous professional literature concerning the therapeutic benefits of assistance animals for people with disabilities such as that experienced by [FIRST NAME]. Upon request, I will share citations to relevant studies, and would be happy to answer other questions you may have concerning my recommendation that [FULL NAME OF TENANT] have an emotional support animal. Should you have additional question, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Signature

[NAME OF PROFESSIONAL]

BOLD emphasis added

The HOA is ENCORAGED to obtain the above 'certification' AND to 'check it out' with the provider.

One must actually be DISABLED to have an 'emotional support animal'.

This is exactly what I have for my SOA, however it's not the SOA that's the issue (directly), it's the second small dog who they're refusing to allow due to my SOA being more than 25 pounds.

What is an SOA? A service dog is a whole other animal (pun intended).

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 2:22 AM
Posted By PaaN on 09/13/2018 12:40 AM

..... As a mental health professional, I therefore recommend that Ms. X be permitted to live with an Emotional Support Animal in her dwelling, despite any rules, policies, procedures or regulations restricting or limiting animals, and be provided any other reasonable accommodations in housing, so Ms. X can enjoy the benefits of fair housing per the Fair Housing Act as amended in 1988. .....

N/F/G - must be PRESCRIBED as a NECESSARY to every day function, as per:

..... I am prescribing[/] an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability. .....

IMO: you have an Internet Quickie Tauric Ka-Ka 'certificate - GET OVER YOURSELF

That is not true. That is not the definition of an ESA. And, it's a moot point. The BOD has accepted the dog as an ESA, the issue is now another dog.

That is PRECISELY and EXACTLY true.

An "Emotional Support Animal" allows a mentally handicapped individual to function within society.

An ESA is NOT, repeat NOT, a 'comfort pet' providing pleasure and happiness (like a pet).

One must be certified as mentally ill for an ESA.

Pun intended.

HOWEVER

Since the truth often is unpleasant to hear, we shall continue to have the shitshows ride in our grocery shopping carts and yapping in our restaurants.

ps. the BOD may at any time rescind their approval based upon not receiving the PROPER certification

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

As a reminder,

directly from HUD:

..... Due to mental illness, [FIRST NAME] has certain limitations regarding [SOCIAL INTERACTION/COPING WITH STRESS/ANXIETY, ETC]. In order to help alleviate these difficulties, and to enhance his/her ability to live independently and to fully use and enjoy the dwelling unit you own and/or administer, I am prescribing an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability. .....

ps. a lonely or sad 'old timer' desiring company does NOT qualify

a person who moved unknowingly into a pet restrictive habitat does NOT qualify

a person who desires a xyz animal in violation of restrictions does NOT qualify

pps. I have a RIGHT to enter into a binding contract restricting animals.

There are Reasonable Accommodations to be made for LEGITIMATE medical issues, but NOT for purposes of individual 'comfort'.

"Comfort" animals are NOT, repeat NOT, reasonable accommodations

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Pain in the Ass,

ESAs are not the same as SERVICE animals. They do not have public access, and the requirements to have one are not the same.

You have totally ruined your alleged 98% in being right. You are showing extreme, extreme ignorance about assistance animals.

Not to mention, that is not even the problem presented in the thread. You are totally off topic.

Jeanie, did your BOD accept the dog AS an ESA or merely accept it?

I ask because your docs do permit a dog over 25 pounds to be approved, ESA or no ESA. A critical part TO THE TOPIC at hand is whether the dog was accepted by the BOD AS an ESA.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

..... ESAs are not the same as SERVICE animals. They do not have public access, and the requirements to have one are not the same. .....

Absolutely correct.

The point is that, as per HUD, one must be MENTALL ILL in order to have a 'protected' ESA.

They (ESAs) are NOT 'comfort animals'.

YOUR 'pet goldfish' is a comfort animal.

The OP's fine question stems from whether or not her animal is an actual ESA.

albeit indirectly

You are correct however, I dropped to 97.83 in another thread.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

It was 97 and you just dropped further.

Anyway, enough of this. It's not the purpose of the forum, and it's not following the rules of being FRIENDLY and HELPFUL.

Jeanie, ignore this person. The rest of us are here to HELP.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 6:03 AM
Pain in the Ass,

ESAs are not the same as SERVICE animals. They do not have public access, and the requirements to have one are not the same.

You have totally ruined your alleged 98% in being right. You are showing extreme, extreme ignorance about assistance animals.

Not to mention, that is not even the problem presented in the thread. You are totally off topic.

Jeanie, did your BOD accept the dog AS an ESA or merely accept it?

I ask because your docs do permit a dog over 25 pounds to be approved, ESA or no ESA. A critical part TO THE TOPIC at hand is whether the dog was accepted by the BOD AS an ESA.

They accepted her as an ESA. And thank you for your help.

TimM11
Posts: 354

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 6:22 AM
It was 97 and you just dropped further.

Anyway, enough of this. It's not the purpose of the forum, and it's not following the rules of being FRIENDLY and HELPFUL.

Jeanie, ignore this person. The rest of us are here to HELP.

Thanks Jennifer! I appreciate it.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM
Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM
Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

The OP is correct.

The evil HOA is attempting to 'get her'.

The OP should dig in her heels as a point of principle.

I will (and have) fight to the death to protect her right to spout Tauric Ka-Ka.

There, y'all feel better ?

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:51 AM
Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

Thanks Jennifer. She was approved as an ESA.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

How do we report people who don't seem to understand the very simple rules on this forum?

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:54 AM
Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:51 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

Thanks Jennifer. She was approved as an ESA.

Alrighty. Then they need to understand that under Federal law she is not a pet, you have no pets, and have no basis to deny your one and only pet assuming it will not grow to over 25 pounds and is not dangerous or a nuisance.

This might require you to engage an attorney to send them a friendly letter appraising them of the Federal Law and kindly refrain from discriminating against you.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:59 AM
Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:54 AM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:51 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

Thanks Jennifer. She was approved as an ESA.

Alrighty. Then they need to understand that under Federal law she is not a pet, you have no pets, and have no basis to deny your one and only pet assuming it will not grow to over 25 pounds and is not dangerous or a nuisance.

This might require you to engage an attorney to send them a friendly letter appraising them of the Federal Law and kindly refrain from discriminating against you.

Is there a place where it's written in the Federal law that I could refer to specifically? If so, I could try to reference that info myself without an attorney. I think that as long as they know that I'm aware of the law, they might back off. Thanks again.

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 9:05 AM
Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:59 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:54 AM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:51 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

Thanks Jennifer. She was approved as an ESA.

Alrighty. Then they need to understand that under Federal law she is not a pet, you have no pets, and have no basis to deny your one and only pet assuming it will not grow to over 25 pounds and is not dangerous or a nuisance.

This might require you to engage an attorney to send them a friendly letter appraising them of the Federal Law and kindly refrain from discriminating against you.

Is there a place where it's written in the Federal law that I could refer to specifically? If so, I could try to reference that info myself without an attorney. I think that as long as they know that I'm aware of the law, they might back off. Thanks again.

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:55 AM
How do we report people who don't seem to understand the very simple rules on this forum?

You mean the ones who 'tell it like it is' ?

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaaN on 09/13/2018 11:13 AM
Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:55 AM
How do we report people who don't seem to understand the very simple rules on this forum?

You mean the ones who 'tell it like it is' ?

We have only a few other rules:

(1) Post any relevant topic you like, but please keep it clean, helpful, positive and friendly.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 9:08 AM
Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 9:05 AM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:59 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:54 AM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:51 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

Thanks Jennifer. She was approved as an ESA.

Alrighty. Then they need to understand that under Federal law she is not a pet, you have no pets, and have no basis to deny your one and only pet assuming it will not grow to over 25 pounds and is not dangerous or a nuisance.

This might require you to engage an attorney to send them a friendly letter appraising them of the Federal Law and kindly refrain from discriminating against you.

Is there a place where it's written in the Federal law that I could refer to specifically? If so, I could try to reference that info myself without an attorney. I think that as long as they know that I'm aware of the law, they might back off. Thanks again.

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF

from said document:

1. Purpose: This notice explains certain obligations of housing providers under the Fair
Housing Act (FHAct), Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 (Section 504), and the
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) with respect to animals that provide assistance to
individuals with disabilities. The Department of Justice's (DOT) amendments to its
regulations' for Titles II and III of the ADA limit the definition of "service animal" under the
ADA to include only dogs, and further define "service animal" to exclude emotional support
animals.

Even the Feds are sick to death of the 'me me me I am special I want a dog' b/s.

ESAs are 'supposed' to be ONLY for mentally disabled persons who can not function without them.

Even then, a place of public accommodation CAN (and some do) exclude them.

The referenced letter of certification above is from HUD and has the web site referenced.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Let me see if I understand the situation correctly.

+ The OP has an ESA (for the sake of argument)

+ The ESA actually is helping the mentally handicapped OP (else no ESA allowed) to function

+ The OP now desires an additional 'pet' dog which would not be allowed if the ESA were a pet

The question becomes:

Which came first, the horse or the cart ?

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Speaking as a vet:

PTSD is horrible, but a NORMAL response to certain things done and sights seen.

One will NEVER be the same after battle.

PTSD is not, repeat not, to be confused with 'shell shock' which is an actual subtle 'concussion' injury to the brain caused by MULTIPLE concussion waves from explosions (as in shelling).

Shell Shock may require an actual service animal (not an ESA) to help the injured function.

PTSD ? Get over yourself ! Patton even slapped a PTSD 'victim' among true shell shock casualties.

SUCK IT UP AND MOVE ALONG

or

Whine and get a ESA if you are PERMANENTLY mentally handicapped

but

Please do not waste everyone's time bitching about your inability to get a pet to go along with your ESA.

Sorry for the 'tough love'

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Seems that, yet once again, I am proved correct:

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/Pet_Ownership_Final_Rule.pdf

(back to 98%)

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

over and OUT

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaaN on 09/13/2018 12:05 PM
over and OUT

Good.

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 9:08 AM
Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 9:05 AM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:59 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:54 AM

Posted By JenniferG12 on 09/13/2018 8:51 AM

Posted By JeanieG on 09/13/2018 8:15 AM

Posted By TimM11 on 09/13/2018 8:13 AM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/13/2018 7:50 AM
I am with Paan. The vast majority of Emotional Support Animal issue are caused by those looking to skirt association rules and regulations and by those that are a bit weird to begin with.

Meh. It's not the point of the thread to play detective about if she has a true, properly documented ESA or not. Assuming she does, the advice she got earlier is good.

Thank you. I'm feeling quite judged right about now. According to some on this thread, I'm either skirting association rules or weird. Nice.

Ignore that. Let them say that to the face of a Vet with PTSD, which you might be, it's none of our business and irrelevant to the discussion.

Was your first dog approved on the basis of being an ESA or merely approved? It makes a world of difference the way your docs are written.

Thanks Jennifer. She was approved as an ESA.

Alrighty. Then they need to understand that under Federal law she is not a pet, you have no pets, and have no basis to deny your one and only pet assuming it will not grow to over 25 pounds and is not dangerous or a nuisance.

This might require you to engage an attorney to send them a friendly letter appraising them of the Federal Law and kindly refrain from discriminating against you.

Is there a place where it's written in the Federal law that I could refer to specifically? If so, I could try to reference that info myself without an attorney. I think that as long as they know that I'm aware of the law, they might back off. Thanks again.

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF

Thanks again Jennifer. I've carefully read the HUD document you referenced above (which was issued in 2013) as well as the document referenced by PaaN (issued in 2008) and believe that the document you referenced to be the the more valid and accurate of the two. Not only is it the more recent document of the two, but it also explains such misconceptions (such as the one quoted by PaaN above which was taken out of context). In order to interpret PaaN's quote correctly, one MUST read the HUD document in its entirety, as the document clearly states that the ADA's definition of a service animal (quoted by PaaN above) is not the same as the FHAct and Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

I do have a question about the HUD document though. Section I of the document discusses "Reasonable Accommodations for Assistance Animals under the FHAct and Section 504" but only refers to allowing an assistance animal into housing where NO pets are allowed. I'm wondering if my HOA could argue that they made a "reasonable accommodation" for my ESA but that a second dog (even though it would be my only "pet") could be considered "unreasonable".

The only other question I have is (and this may be a silly question but...) does an HOA have to comply with the FHAct or no? I'm assuming the answer is yes, but I'm wondering if there's some way they can say that they don't. As I said before, in my opinion, your interpretation of an ESA not being a pet is correct, and now I just want to be certain that my HOA is required to follow the law under the FHAct.

I hope all of these questions make sense!

JeanieG (Texas)
Posts: 12

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaaN on 09/13/2018 12:04 PM
Seems that, yet once again, I am proved correct:

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/Pet_Ownership_Final_Rule.pdf

(back to 98%)

It appears that the document you cited pertains to HUD-assisted public housing which is not my situation. "This final rule amends HUD’s regulations governing the requirements for pet ownership in HUD-assisted public housing and multifamily housing projects for the elderly and persons with disabilities."

JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103

Posted:

What is the new pet rule? You mentioned it in the OP but the links are to the current rules.

HUD does not specify that an ESA does not count toward a pet limit. That is my interpretation based on it saying that ESAs are not pets and not subject to conditions on pets, and those sites that are peddling ESA letters say all kinds of things, but so far I have found no case law in Texas specifically addressing that aspect, which is why I suggested that you engage an attorney if this is something you intend to peruse.

Of course they have to follow Fair Housing Act.

TimM11
Posts: 354

Posted:

An HOA in my area lost a court case against the FHA a few years ago and had to pay out a $100K+ settlement (plus their BOD and MC had to undergo some mandatory training). It wasn't animal-related (it involved restrictions for minors), but it's an example of what can happen to HOAs that think federal law doesn't apply to them.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

UPDATE

HUD has relocated its sample letter to:

https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/DOC_7399.DOC

click on 'web view' will direct you to:

https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hud.gov%2Fsites%2Fdocuments%2FDOC_7399.DOC

Sample letter for Companion Animal

DATE

NAME OF PROFESSIONAL (therapist, physician, psychiatrist, rehabilitation counselor)

ADDRESS

Dear [HOUSING AUTHROITY/LANDLORD]:

[NAME OF TENANT] is my patient, and has been under my care since [DATE]. I am intimately familiar with his/her history and with the functional limitations imposed by his/her disability. He/She meets the definition of disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Fair Housing Act, and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973.

Due to mental illness, [FIRST NAME] has certain limitations regarding [SOCIAL INTERACTION/COPING WITH STRESS/ANXIETY, ETC]. In order to help alleviate these difficulties, and to enhance his/her ability to live independently and to fully use and enjoy the dwelling unit you own and/or administer, I am prescribing an emotional support animal that will assist [FIRST NAME] in coping with his/her disability.

I am familiar with the voluminous professional literature concerning the therapeutic benefits of assistance animals for people with disabilities such as that experienced by [FIRST NAME]. Upon request, I will share citations to relevant studies, and would be happy to answer other questions you may have concerning my recommendation that [FULL NAME OF TENANT] have an emotional support animal. Should you have additional question, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Sincerely,

Signature

[NAME OF PROFESSIONAL]

(underline added)

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