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MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
I was in the process of replacing my carpet with laminate and the HOA president found out and said that I would be fined.
My unit is on the third floor and multiple units on upper floors (second) have already replaced their flooring to laminate even though the CC&Rs mention otherwise. They have not been fined. Here are couple of points that I think strengthen my case:-

Conflict between CC&Rs and Rules and Regulations
The CCRs mention that no unit on the second floor will install hard floor coverings. It also mentions that the rules and regulations can be modified as needed by the board to reduce noise. The rules and regulations mentions that no unit on the second or third floor will install hard floor coverings. I am wondering if this is enforceable since it conflicts with what is in in the CCRs? Even though the CCR mentions that the board can add rules and regulations to reduce noise, my understanding is that it just applies to the common areas? So the rule does not apply to third floor units which have a concrete sub-floor.

Selective Discrimination
Since I am part of the board I have access to all documents and earlier board presidents have mentioned in emails that floating floors have not been considered as hard floors in the past. Also many units on the second floor have hard floor coverings (laminate and vinyl) and they have not been fined. If I am fined should'nt all the units on the upper floors be fined as well?

I have seen atleast 3 upper floor units with laminate in them and none of them have been fined.

Do you think I have a strong case? Can these rules and regulations be enforced?

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Matt,

There is no conflict that I see, as the intent is clear (at least to me).

If others have laminate, then specify that you are only doing what others have been allowed to do and identify the others. Then see what the board does (it is possible the board is unaware).

I also suspect that there is something within the covenants that require Association approval prior to changes (but I could be wrong). If my suspicion is right, and you did not receive approval, that is the covenant I would be enforcing.
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
I don't see why the intent is clear since the flooring for third floor units is different from those of second floor units. Moreover, the second floor units have been explicitly specified in the CC&R whereas third floor units have not. To add third floor units to the restriction, in my view an amendment needs to be made to the CC&Rs. Otherwise one could argue that even first floor units cannot have laminate if it is a matter of intent.

And I think intent only applies to common and limited common elements , not floors within a unit. This is how I see it. Let me know if I am wrong.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Matt,

I provided my opinion. To find out which interpretation is correct, the issue would have to go before a court for a ruling. Until then, those who have the authority to enforce (i.e. the Board) would rely on their interpretation.

BTW, does your covenants require prior approval for changes to the flooring?
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
they do not.

Also, I am part of the board and the board is aware that multiple upper floor units have laminate flooring. I have all the documentation that the board has including what acc requests have been submitted or rejected. If I get fined as long as everyone else is also fined that is fine. As per AZ law the fine has to be reasonable and a schedule of fines has to be submitted to homeowners.

As far as I know no schedule of fines exists in our documentation.

When I look at many law websites, it says that anything in the CC&R has precedence over what is in the R&R.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I do not see laminates as hard floor coverings as they are on a underlayment and they float.
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
thanks John. Do you have any documentation to support this? That would help my case. That is what one of the HOA members said when we got an acc request for approval for another homeowner.
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
I am really interested to know that if the CCR specified only second flooring units as not allowed to have hard floor coverings including but not limited to wood, tile and marble, then how does this satisfy "intent" to follow the same rule for the third floor? If the third floor is not specifically mentioned in the CCR then how does it automatically get added in the rule based on "intent"?

Second and third floors could have different sub floors. I know the third floor has a concrete sub-floor. And there is no way sound could get to a second floor from a laminate flooring placed over quality 3 in 1 underlayment.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
While it is more common to have a padding buffer between laminate and the subfloor, I have seen many installations of laminate directly over subfloors. They clack and creak and make lots of noise.

I have also seen installations with roll out pad or padding attached at the factory that make noise when walked on ... not as much as unpadded, but way noisier than carpet, especially when shoes are worn.
JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MattN on 09/08/2018 11:30 PM
I am really interested to know that if the CCR specified only second flooring units as not allowed to have hard floor coverings including but not limited to wood, tile and marble, then how does this satisfy "intent" to follow the same rule for the third floor? If the third floor is not specifically mentioned in the CCR then how does it automatically get added in the rule based on "intent"?

Second and third floors could have different sub floors. I know the third floor has a concrete sub-floor. And there is no way sound could get to a second floor from a laminate flooring placed over quality 3 in 1 underlayment.

Because the CCR allows the board to make rules as needed for noise control. I am no flooring expert, but I know this, I am upstairs and have a concrete sub-floor. That does not prevent noise to me DS neighbor at all.

A new upstairs owner is installing wood, and he is getting the top of the line whatevers that provide a barrier between the sub floor and his wood flooring.

When I get new floors, they will be wood laminate for most parts, and I will get whatever provides sound reduction and water barrier.
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Yes I am installing 12 mm thick laminate and 2 mm underlayment. I installed it at a different unit and it seems fine from a noise perspective.

Also, even though the board can make any rules and regulations they want to control noise as mentioned in the CCRs, my understanding is this only applies to the common elements and limited common elements. So to my knowledge it doesn't apply to flooring.

Moreover both my neighbors on the second floor below have laminate and haven't filed an acc request or have one approved. So even if I can't get them on unenforceable rules I can get them on selective enforcement. Almost 30% of the upper floor units have laminate or vinyl flooring as disclosed by a past president. So the HOA has basically been inconsistently enforcing the rules over the past couple of years. No doubt there is a non-waiver clause in the CCRs, but if they are enforcing it now, they need to enforce it for everyone who already has laminate too.
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
No doubt there is a non-waiver clause in the CCRs, but if they are enforcing it now, they need to enforce it for everyone who already has laminate too.

CORRECT, IMO

but

What does your attorney say ?
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Thanks. that's what I think too.

I haven't gone to an attorney yet. I will go once I receive a fine letter.
JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaaN on 09/09/2018 1:43 PM
No doubt there is a non-waiver clause in the CCRs, but if they are enforcing it now, they need to enforce it for everyone who already has laminate too.

CORRECT, IMO

but

What does your attorney say ?

I'm not sure about that. If something goes too long w/o being enforced, sometimes they have to start over if they want to start enforcing. Grandfather in the people they let it slide for all this time.

I'll be interested in what the attorney says.
JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103
Posted:
This is from California, but I would look into my state laws were I facing this situation and seeing if there is anything similar:

Relinquishment of Enforcement Rights
If an association’s board fails or refuses to enforce the restrictions, the association may ultimately lose its right and ability to enforce the restrictions based upon the following:

Statute of Limitations – The statute of limitations for a violation of a restriction is five (5) years from the time the association “discovered or, through the exercise of reasonable diligence, should have discovered the violation.” (Code. Civ. Pro § 336(b).)

The term “restriction” in this respect does not mean only those restrictions which are recorded in the CC&Rs; it also includes unrecorded restrictions such as architectural standards. (Pacific Hills HOA v. Prun (2008) 81 Cal.App.4th 1557, 1563-1564.)

Laches – Laches is an equitable defense that is used against persons who are unjustifiably slow to exercise a right or claim. The defense of laches could be used to defeat an association’s enforcement action if an association unreasonably delays in exercising its enforcement rights and that delay results in prejudice to the violating homeowner. (Pacific Hills, at 431.)

Waiver – “The right to enforce a restrictive covenant may be deemed generally waived when there are ‘a sufficient number of waivers so that the purpose of the general plan is undermined,’ in other words, when ‘substantially all of the landowners have acquiesced in a violation so as to indicate an abandonment.’” (Alfaro v. Community Housing Improvement System & Planning Assn. (2009) 171 Cal.App.4th 1356, 1380.)

http://findhoalaw.com/failure-to-enforce/
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MattN on 09/08/2018 12:25 PM
Even though the CCR mentions that the board can add rules and regulations to reduce noise, my understanding is that it just applies to the common areas? So the rule does not apply to third floor units which have a concrete sub-floor.


Rules can apply inside an owner's property, not just the common areas. It is typical to have such rules in multiple family properties such as apartment-style condominiums. For example, restrictions inside a unit may prohibit pets, odors, flammable materials, unsanitary conditions, vermin, anything that will increase the rate of insurance on the common elements, and of course noise. There is significant risk of these things effecting the surrounding properties, so it is reasonable to restrict them. Do you have any of these restrictions in your governing documents?

There is no general prohibition against rules applying inside a property.

The concrete on the third floor may be gyp-crete, which is a noise reducer (and fire suppressant). Do your documents describe the building (typical in condo docs)?
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Rules can apply inside a property but my understanding is that if the CCR and Rules & Regulations documents conflict then CCR takes precedence. Moreover, I was able to dig up an ACC request that approved laminate for a unit on the third floor around 10 years ago.
JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103
Posted:
Selective enforcement.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MattN on 09/11/2018 7:17 PM

Moreover, I was able to dig up an ACC request that approved laminate for a unit on the third floor around 10 years ago.

That's what you bring forward. The Association approved it for others. You are not asking for anything that hasn't already been approved for others.
CathyA3 (Ohio)
Posts: 6,299
Posted:
We have a similar flooring restriction in my community, and we approve vinyl plank flooring for the upstairs unit owners who want a hardwood look that complies with the language of the restriction. (You could make the case that vinyl planks are actually "hard", though.)

That said, there really isn't a very good solution to restrictions like this. Most of the time we won't find out about unapproved flooring unless a downstairs owner complains, and then we're into "selective enforcement" territory. I've lived in a first floor condo where the owner upstairs installed hardwood and then later moved. In my experience, hard surface flooring isn't a problem if you have a quiet, considerate owner upstairs. In contrast, carpet and vinyl flooring won't help much if the upstairs owner is noisy and inconsiderate.

When we have complaints, we talk to the owner with the unapproved flooring, note that it's a violation that we could make them remove, but we suggest use of area rugs and considerate behavior first. This almost always reduces the noise complaints.
MattN (Arizona)
Posts: 9
Posted:
thanks. I know my sub-floor has atleast 4 inches on concrete. It's hard to believe that with that much concrete someone below is going to hear anything. Is that even possible? Add to that 12 mm of laminate and 2 mm of underlayment.
JenniferG12 (Texas)
Posts: 103
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MattN on 09/12/2018 7:39 PM
thanks. I know my sub-floor has atleast 4 inches on concrete. It's hard to believe that with that much concrete someone below is going to hear anything. Is that even possible?

It is. Ask my DS neighbor! I have also wondered due to the concrete sub-floor WHY that is so, but unfortunately it is. It's good you plan on the in-between layers

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