removal of president from the hoa board

Started by MyronJ • 21 replies • 1095 views

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MyronJ (South Carolina)
Posts: 2

Posted:

Recently our board had a special meeting to discuss various ethical issues concerning the actions of the president. A motion was made and seconded to vote for removal of the president from his position, and the board voted. The vice president conducted the meeting, and allowed the president to vote on this matter. Two members abstained, and a couple voted against removing the president, along with the president voting as well. I am curious if he should have been allowed to vote in this situation. Please respond.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Expecting that the individual is also a Director, yes they should have been able to cast a vote before the board.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

How many are on the Board? Was this an open meeting that owners could attend?

I'm not sure, but I believe such a vote can be conducted by secret ballot.

With Tim, I agree the prez can vote because he is a director.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

I would wonder why the question would be poised in the first place. Four of the people abstained and/or voted no on removal. An abstention in this case is the same as a no. A Board of five, if all present, would need 3 yes to remove. It appears the most they got was one. If you have the president abstain, then it would be three abstentions and one no.

Motion fails!

MyronJ (South Carolina)
Posts: 2

Posted:

To be clear: There were five votes to remove the president, three to keep (including the president's vote), and two abstained. One board member was not present. The issues were about the president's abuse of power. It is very frustrating to be on a HOA board.

SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814

Posted:

Myron,

Maybe a vote to censure should have been done before. With a ballot vote.

Shame on the abstentions. Someone didn't make the "case" for removal.

I believe it takes 2/3 to remove an officer.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 08/20/2018 8:49 PM
I would wonder why the question would be poised in the first place. Four of the people abstained and/or voted no on removal. An abstention in this case is the same as a no. A Board of five, if all present, would need 3 yes to remove. It appears the most they got was one. If you have the president abstain, then it would be three abstentions and one no.

Motion fails!

Please explain how an abstention equals a naye vote as opposed to no vote at all.

Thank you.

John B.

ps. In 'my' BOD the pres. only votes to break a tie

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

In the OP's situation, there appears to be 11 Board members of which 10 were in attendance at this meeting. To remove an officer requires the same as electing one, a majority, in this case 6 votes to remove.

The totals were 5 to remove, three agaisnt and two abstains. Motion fails. If the two who abstained had left the building and the votes remained the same, motion would have passed.

In the real world, directors, not officers vote, thus the president would be allays allowed to vote. Too many people rely on RRO and not their governing documents

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

In Robert's Rules of Order (RONR), presidents of small boards, 12 or fewer, may vote.

But what do Myron's Bylaws say? Or, perhaps at some time, the Board approved a resolution that the Prez only votes to make or break a tie as in RONR for large boards?

Another question is: were all who DID vote directors? Sometimes officers are NOT directors so shouldn't vote.

If on Myron's board the prez should not have voted, the five ayes would have prevailed over the 4 nos/abstentions.

I don't think Sue's approach--there needs to be 2/3rds to remove an officer-- is at all typical.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/21/2018 9:16 AM
In Robert's Rules of Order (RONR), presidents of small boards, 12 or fewer, may vote.

But what do Myron's Bylaws say? Or, perhaps at some time, the Board approved a resolution that the Prez only votes to make or break a tie as in RONR for large boards?

Another question is: were all who DID vote directors? Sometimes officers are NOT directors so shouldn't vote.

If on Myron's board the prez should not have voted, the five ayes would have prevailed over the 4 nos/abstentions.

I don't think Sue's approach--there needs to be 2/3rds to remove an officer-- is at all typical.

Does the President in your 211 unit, twin tower, very complicated HOA vote as a Director? In www.davis-stirling.com, this is what they say in presidents of HOA's as it pertains to motions and voting, Under Robert's Rules of Order, the president is not required to abstain from making motions or voting on motions. Unless an association's governing documents prohibit voting by the president, he/she may actively participate in board meetings and vote on all matters brought before the board, whether in open or executive session meetings.

In my experience, and having conducted or participated in hundreds of Board meetings, HOA and government, presidents have always been able to make motions and vote. In addition, if you look at HOA's, the vast majority will state that Annual Meetings of Members, shall be conducted using an acceptable form of parliamentary procedure, not always Robert's Rule of Order.

Little confused by the statement Prez only votes to make or break a tie as in RONR for large boards? For example, the President of the Senate, the Vice President of the US Only vote in the instance of a tie.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RichardP13 on 08/21/2018 8:02 AM
In the OP's situation, there appears to be 11 Board members of which 10 were in attendance at this meeting. To remove an officer requires the same as electing one, a majority, in this case 6 votes to remove.

The totals were 5 to remove, three agaisnt and two abstains. Motion fails. If the two who abstained had left the building and the votes remained the same, motion would have passed.

In the real world, directors, not officers vote, thus the president would be allays allowed to vote. Too many people rely on RRO and not their governing documents

Thank you.

I did not, apparently, understand the numbers.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I asked Myron, Richard, if there's anything in HIS HOA docs that'd keep the prez from voting. As you know,
Richard, RONR is a default source that many use if their own docs or policies are unclear.

I noted that: "In Robert's Rules of Order (RONR), presidents of small boards, 12 or fewer, may vote." See RONR, 11th Ed. p. 488, 20.

I said nothing about my HOA, about which you seem obsessed, Richard. But with a board of 7, yes, the president votes here as we are a "small board."

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Why should the president of the OP's board not be allowed to vote? Do you think there is a conflict of interest with this director?

When on the Board of a government entity, we used The Standard Code of Parliamentary Procedure, not Robert's Rule of Order. We were a board of 21 and the president always voted.

I never had a Board follow any parliamentary procedure, nor did most know what it was. I have a cheat sheet from ROR that I use, if needed. To date, never needed.

Many of us here do research before answering questions. I have keep a file in the neighborhood of 400 governing documents throughout the U.S., indexed by individual states for reference. I have the tools to pretty much find anyone in the US that owns property that has been recorded, as it is public records.

That being said, sometime ago you stated that you had a very complicated budget and the formula by which assessments are done is very complicated in the eyes of legal counsel and management. You pretty much told everyone your address. 211 units, twin towers, urban, park adjacent to complex, you are the Secretary. Put that information into Google and wa..la.. two minutes and found.

Trust me, I am MUCH more obsessed with what goes on at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, that your small HOA in a urban setting.

Calculating residential is pretty basis and used in other HOA's, pretty cut and dry. The other three are just numbers on a spreadsheet, but require the use of the Condo Plan.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Richard, your desire to try to give everyone who reads this info about my HOA is sleazy. IF, you're right, and I never wrote 211 units as it's not the size of my HOA I would not be able to seek any advice from this forum about certain matters. I cannot give any further info about my HOA since you'll be pathetically desperate to find out its location. WHY do you care about any details of my HOA? Creeeepy, brrr!

This doesn't even make sense, Richard: "Calculating residential is pretty basis and used in other HOA's, pretty cut and dry [sic]. The other three are just numbers on a spreadsheet, but require the use of the Condo Plan." Whatever it means, our Condo Plan gives us no guidance whatsoever re: dues splits. Instead, we must turn to the original DRE budget. 2nd there is more than one residential area in our operating budget and reserves.

Our Board has no policy about any parliamentary procedures though a system is required by our bylaws for Members (homeowners) Meetings. We DO rely of RONR for occasional topics like motions to reconsider a decision previously made or motions made to rescind decisions previously made.

We do NOT know if Myron's HOA, remember this is about HIS HOA, has any requirements about the president voting. As we can easily see, PaaN's board doesn't allow the prez to vote except in a tie. don't know if it's s just a longterm practice, in their bylaws, or a board resolution.

PaaN
Posts: 219

Posted:

bylaws

as a 'check' of the pres.'s powers

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Thanks for the clarification, PaaN. As you & I know, bylaws supersede Robert's Rules.

Now if Myron would tell us about his HOA on this topic, it'd be a good thing.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

To answer the OP's question, even if the president for what ever reason, was not allowed to vote or abstained, they were present and would not change the outcome of the vote. If the president could not vote and had to abstain, then the tally would be 5 for removal, 3 abstain and 2 agaisnt removal. Motion still fails as you still need 6 votes in the affirmative.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Myron

Typically a BOD Member (Officer or not) cannot be removed from the BOD unless they were appointed by the BOD. They can only be removed by those that put the person (Officer or not) on the BOD which means if elected to the BOD by owners, only owners can remove them.

What the BOD can do to remove an Officer, is call for a new BOD Officer election where only the Members of the BOD vote, the same way one was elected to be an Officer. If successful, the person remains on the BOD just not as an Officer.

In your case the vote failed. If 10 or 11 voted, 6 would have to say yes to remove the person. Thus 6 yeses would be required no matter how many no's or abstensions.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/21/2018 12:01 PM
Richard, your desire to try to give everyone who reads this info about my HOA is sleazy. IF, you're right, and I never wrote 211 units as it's not the size of my HOA I would not be able to seek any advice from this forum about certain matters. I cannot give any further info about my HOA since you'll be pathetically desperate to find out its location. WHY do you care about any details of my HOA? Creeeepy, brrr!

This doesn't even make sense, Richard: "Calculating residential is pretty basis and used in other HOA's, pretty cut and dry [sic]. The other three are just numbers on a spreadsheet, but require the use of the Condo Plan." Whatever it means, our Condo Plan gives us no guidance whatsoever re: dues splits. Instead, we must turn to the original DRE budget. 2nd there is more than one residential area in our operating budget and reserves.

Our Board has no policy about any parliamentary procedures though a system is required by our bylaws for Members (homeowners) Meetings. We DO rely of RONR for occasional topics like motions to reconsider a decision previously made or motions made to rescind decisions previously made.

We do NOT know if Myron's HOA, remember this is about HIS HOA, has any requirements about the president voting. As we can easily see, PaaN's board doesn't allow the prez to vote except in a tie. don't know if it's s just a longterm practice, in their bylaws, or a board resolution.

My apologizes as this not being your HOA. In a similar HOA, which has many of the same characteristics, and in their documents, the assessment is based on variable costs, such as insurance, water and gas plus common area costs such as landscaping, admin costs, swimming pool, etc. So they add the three budgeted variable annual costs. Then you divide the square footage by the variable cost and then divide by 12. This give you a percentage to multiple against the variable cost. The fixed costs would be the complete expense less the variable costs divided by 12 and then divided by the number of units. That would be the cost each owner would paid uniformly.

For example:

Annual Budgeted expenses, $3,000,000.00
Variable Expenses, $500,000.00

Square Footage of unit 1156
Variable percentage: 0.000192667
Variable Cost: $96.33

Fixed Cost: $987.36

Total Assessment: $1083.69

The actual square footage should be derived from the Condo Plan as public record may not have the correct numbers.

This particular HOA then has a Commercial Condominium Owners Allowable Share which will use information from the DRE Budget and the Condo Plan as it relates to the Grid Areas.

They also have a Tower Special Benefits Area Component and a Commercial Special Benefits Area Component, which I am guessing comes from the Condo plan.

It all boils down as just numbers on a spreadsheet.

I'll leave it as it is.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Richard, thank you for your apology. I cannot ben tell you how far off you are about my HOA's finances. The sf variance is simple and not unusual.

But this thread is about Myron's situation, not your speculation about mine. For crisake, get a grip!

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 08/21/2018 10:31 PM
Richard, thank you for your apology. I cannot ben tell you how far off you are about my HOA's finances. The sf variance is simple and not unusual.

But this thread is about Myron's situation, not your speculation about mine. For crisake, get a grip!

I ANSWERED HIS QUESTION!

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Quote:

BTW, I made up the budget amounts. The calculations are correct, as on the budget I made up as well as the square footage, for comparison purposes.

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