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LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
Hello, I am an owner in a condominium community that was basically destroyed by hurricane harvey.
126 unit owners lost everything and have been displaced.
The chaos and ensuing cleanup and lack of communication resulted in a removal of the previous board and board president.
the new temporary board was elected.
upon being elected on this new board, i quickly realized that i was the only board member that was actually a resident owners.
our bylaws don't require residency to be a board member. But obviously, being the only resident board member, I was going to have different opinions from the board members who were owners and rented their units out.

Noone on the board had any previous board experience( i know i know, its bad and gets worse)
There were no proper procedures or procedures at all followed.
for the first three months the board was trying to fill out fema applicatoins,, and figure out how to start the rebuild process.( we had no flood coverage as we are outside of the flood zone)

I quickly realized the other board members had no interest in rebuilding, They preferred to have a developer buy out the entire property , so they could just get their money and move on.
However, our bylaws and declaration are pre 1994 texas.. thus, it takes 100% owner approval to agree to sell. so the rest of the board begrudgingly started planning for rebuild.
When i continued to voice objections to the board wanting to present the owners with the worst possible rebuild options. I immediately became enemy number one. Long story short, after meeting after meeting insisting the board needed to present a fair and accurate estimate of what is necessary for rebuild.. I resigned.

ok.. much more has gone on since then, a homeowners facebook page was creeated, but i was banned because of my consistent posts regarding the incompetence and illegality of what was going on. I was excluded from notice of meetings, and not until i contacted the attorney and management company did the board then start sending me notifications.

however.. here is where we are at now.. the new board is occupied being run by one person who i'm to sorry to say is completely incompetent and doesn't know a thing about contracting or rebuilding. She is hell bent on proving me wrong and saving face.
back in march the board at a homeowners meeting presented estimates and a prospective rebuild agenda..and clearly stated in writing also. the board has only signed on contract for project management and structural engineer. and the other contracts under consideration were
1. the rebuild of buildings(company b, who was among 5 companies that the board recieved bids from)
2. the clean up ,demo
3.. the mold certificate inspection..(despite several owners protesting that mold certificatoin was a joke, and common funds should not be used for individual owners having a mold certificate,, all units were already treated as prescribed by fema.. ,, also,, it was 6 months after flood before the board finallystarted anything,, yet, the warned owners that they couldn't start rebuilding unless the board approved it.. (obviously inaccurate, and obviouisly illegal, but again, you have displaced owners who just want to get back to their homes. and unfortunatly many are older and had the mistaken impression that they have to listen to the board, ( i and other owners repeatedly told owners the current board was misinforming them, and as long as they got the required permits and inspections, they could start their units:

They clearly stated sic "no other contracts will be signed until the board recieves 51 % approval of the rebuild plan , the same as required for a fema loan"

ok,, well, with no communication from the board, and no vote.. and no informatoin despite repeated requests.(remember, most of the downstairs owners where displaced and not living here)
the board then entered contracts for work that is clearly defined in our declaration as the responsibility of the owners themselves)despite objections from a few vocal involved owners,(for work that is clearly defined in our declaration as the responsibility of the owners themselves)
The board has not kept any minutes and despite several owners asking for months where are the minutes of the meetings where these decisions were made... the board simply says, we have been busy,, or we are still getting them together.... ITS NOW A YEAR LATER.
The board has spent 600,000 of our million dollars we had in the reserve..
the board unbelievably spent 400,000 dollars on foundation work...!.. despite several foundation companies, an engineer we hired to
come create a complete scope of work that was necessary, and the engineer of record for thisproperty for the last 30 years all saying,
the foundations (other than 2 buildings,,out of 24)were not in need of immediate repair,, The board president contacted some
engineer from out of down who is basically a professor and expert witness, and she hired him to create a complete independent
report of our buildings and property.
Well lo and behold.. his findings were all fine, but his interpretation and recommendations were extreme and made without having any starting data.. By the way, the engineer of record on our property who had overseen all bulding work had all the data, but the president of the board didn't want to work with him becasue she felt he was in thepocket of the previous board(ridiculous, i know)
He recommended 22 out of 26 buildings needed work..

ok. let me get back to the issue. the current board has already burned through 2/3 of our reserves and refuses to listen toi reason,, they are spending the money like its free money,, and they now have decided to assess the owners for another million dollars.!

We absolutely do not want to go to court, we already know that it is sueing ourselves, and our hoa attorney would like nothing better than to run up bills.

today we are getting ready to get the signatures required for a recall vote.. we've been through this once. so we know what it entails. luckily, we won't have to go through the delay of the board not accepting the petition and having to go to court.etc.. i have two board members that agreed, if we get 51% votes for recall, they will call a special meeting .the president or 2 board members can call a special meeting according to our documents, otherwise theowners have to get a petition to call as special meeting and the board has to accept it, and the lawyers try and refute it blah blah...

Here is my question... once we get the signatures for a recall vote,, once the two sympathetic board members call for the special meeting,, can the board continue to sign contracts and pass a special assessment despite knowing that the owners do not agree and are in the process of voting them out...???

sorry for the length..
please any possible angles you can think of that will help??? we already know we have to have a special meeting,, we don't want the board president to spend the next 3 weeks scorched earth,, signing contracts and agreements that are not required, and not necessary and will put the owners further behind.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/16/2018 2:53 PM

Here is my question... once we get the signatures for a recall vote,, once the two sympathetic board members call for the special meeting,, can the board continue to sign contracts and pass a special assessment despite knowing that the owners do not agree and are in the process of voting them out...???

Until the majority of the Board is replaced, they are the elected (or appointed) Directors.

Unless your governing documents specify otherwise, the Board has full authority to enter into contracts.

You would likely need an injunction to stop all contract negotiations until a recall election is held.
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
Unless there are QUALIFIED candidates capable of PROPERLY running a troubled corporation,

y'all may be better off petitioning for a receiver.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I know the board has the authority to enter contracts.. however they can not enter contracts after they just send an offical notice that states they would not enter any new contracts until 51% of ownership approved the rebuild plan.

the problem is, i know absolutely that the board has disregarded and ignored the declaration and bylaws.
the division of mainteance states clearly,, owners are responsible from the wallspace in,, and all utility lines and outlets that serve only that unit are that owners responsiblity.

however, this board, thinks becasue an outlet is on a common wall.. (the inside the stud,perimeter of the building) that the board has authority to hire a contractor to replace all the wiring and outlets on the common wall..

this is so ignorant I almost thought they were joking, when questions by owners, whey is the board using common hoa funds for inside a unit.. when the specific language pointing out precisely that all electric outlets and lines, once they enter the unit, and serve only that unit,, are individual owner responsibilities. the board refused to acknowledge the question and literally said, we decided to include it in common...

We do not want to go to court.. we already went through this a year ago..... i've experienced more truisms in the past year than i have in the past 10 years.. But the reality is, we're here now.. we still have 340,000 left in our reserve fund,, that amount of money will easily cover the legally defined hoa responsibilities.. I've been saying since january,, owners, please,,, do not listen to this board, you legally can rebuild your unit,, as long as you get the permist and follow code.. the board can not stop you.. yet the board threated owners and said if they started rebuilding then the board could very likely come in and tear it all out...

I just can't believe so many owners are so unaware of their rights.. I just sent out the petition for recall this afternoon, i have several owners who are going to get signatures from owners who haven't really been paying attention.. Owners on the second floor, understand that we all will be paying for common elements.. what they don't understand is the board is illegally allocating things to common expense that are not!.. the board has a lot of power, ,but only within the defined limits of our declaration and bylaws,,.. ..

here is one questoin, i have done much research but havent been able to find a similar case.

What if the board is not and has kept minutes ,, and only recently started kind of keeping minutes of the homeowners meetings,, but they don't keep minutes of the board meeting!. We have been requesting them for months. to no avail.
if there are no minutes,, how can owners possibley know what is going on,, how can anyone be held accountable..

example.. right after the water receded,, we were sent notice from the previous board,, owners need to get everythign out of their units and remove drywall up to at least 4 ft. and it needs to be done by wednesday.. so out of 126 units.. 70 hired professionals to come in and clear out everything and demo down to the studs, and then treat for mold,,etc.. 29 did much of the work themselves. 20 who were elderly , their homes were cleared by volunteers.. after all was said and done.. there were probably 8 or 9 units that did not do an adequate job. however,,, 6 months later.. after everything has been cleared and a ghost town, the board decides to hire a company that will complete the demo to uniform specs,, and treat for mold and dehumidify and blah blah blah,,it was a joke,,.. the guy came and presented and gave the schpiel of the dangers of mold blah blah,, it was just scare tactics.. to add insult to injury,, when owners who already had cleaned and cleared and treated their units protested and said, what about the units that are already done.. he said, " oh we aren't charging for those"

guess what,, the work was done,, and the company billed our hoa for 121 units,, 1800 dollars apiece!!.. 91 of these units were already clear and clean and bare up to the ceilings..,, The board paid over 180,000 , and only when i begged a board member who i am friendly with to check things out, did anyone bother to ask any questoins... this company literally stole over 150,000 dollar from the owners.. and the board is now refusing to answer questions../ it turns out,, NOONE TOOK AN INVENTORY OF THE STATE OF each unit befor this company started their work.. teh board was literally taking the companies word for it and there was zero oversight.

i just can't take it anymore.. not a single freaking thing has been done according to our declaration,, the board will put out information on what is going on, and then next thing you know, they are doing the opposite of what they claimed..
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Our by-laws also outline what is on the hoa and what is on individual units, but in the case of fire or other disaster, it's the master policy that pays for individual units. For condos in Texas, it's required by law (TUCA) to maintain that coverage.
JaredC (Texas)
Posts: 264
Posted:
Due to the severity of the problem my advice would be to hire an attorney to write an opinion letter. That'll probably cost $500 or so but well worth every penny! Then you turn around and distribute that letter to EVERYONE. With any luck you could have several homeowners chip in to pay the attorney.

I live in Houston BTW so I know hurricane Harvey very well. Sorry you were so negatively impacted by it!
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Very sorry to hear about your troubles in the wake of Hurricane Harvey, LaskaS. You said the association had no flood insurance. Was all the damage and destruction attributed to flooding? Was there no other insurance coverage?
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
yes,,, all of the damage was due to the water ,, flood damage,,, our condominiums were under water for 8 days,, we were part of the memorial area that was affected when the army corp of engineers opened the damns to avoid possible damn failure if the it kept raining..

the storm itself was not intense as far as wind ..it was just that it rained for days on end, the harvey basically parked over houston..

jaredc... actually,, I already have owners willing to put money together to get an opinion letter written.. I've contacted several lawyers who specialize in hoa law. the first two said it would cost 300 a hour for a minimum 2 hour consult just to listen to me..

the third lawyer actually called me and listened to some of the specifics, i stressed to him that we did not want to sue, because that was a losing battle, and would delay the entire thing longer, and drain our funds further.
I told him we wanted an opinion letter,, he told me, it wouldn't do any good. Because he was familiar with the hoa attorney's firm and they would simply respond with a different opinion and then back and forth and this lawyer said we have to sue..

Finally today.. after having read and read the applicable laws, and specifically our declaration,, I FOUND IT.. i found the exact language that states unequivocally the procedures that must be followed in the aftermath of a disaster...

the section clearly states the if the hoa didn't have insureance, and less than 2/3 of the property was destroyed, the the board HAD to assess the owners the cost of rebuild as a common expense etc etc..

However,,, two paragraphs later,, even though i'd read it over a dozen times..( legalize can get mindnumbing)... it clearly said,, if there is no insureance and less than 2/3 is destroyed, a 51% approval vote of the owners was needed to adopt the plan to rebuild...!!!

I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG,, i never denied the board had the ability to assess the owners.. I kept on insisting that they could only do that if a vote was taken for approval.. what i didn't clearly express, and the board clearly has no clue,, the vote required for by the owners,, is not to approve an assessment,, its to approve the play for rebuild,, i.e. scope of work, estimated costs, etc,, then and only then can the board move forward and sign contracts with contractors for the approved scope of work... The board basically has chosen the most expensive, lengthiest, scope of work, which is going to bankrupt us.. Owners have said,, "we don't need 22 buildings to have the foundations dug up and repaired" the board ignored us, the lawyers said the board could do what they want..( of course, the lawyers won't put anythign in writing, and the homeowners don't have access to the lawyers.. only the board..

question.... now that i found the smoking gun, the actual language and section of our declaration that is black and white,, (previously, the lawyer would say, the documents are silent as to this issue, and a case could be made blah blah,, thus giving the board the answer it wanted to hear.)... I have already posted the information on our private facebook page,, it has been read and reviewed already 40 times.. I posted facts, and posted the actual sections of the declaration that backup up what i was saying...

Isn't the hoa lawyer equired to inform the board that issues I have brought up and backedup with documentation are in fact valid?? but if the board refuse to acknowledge the informatoin.. and i know the attorney will do whatever the board says,, so if the board says, don't respond...,,it's just a nightmare.!

by the way,, did i mention , the board is actually under a court ordered temporary injunction that requires them to follow the bylaws and declaration and requirements for recorded votes and noticed meetings before.. , it is based on a case that is still going on , the injunction was actually put in place to force the previous board to follow the declarations.. but the language of the injunction refers to the abc condo assocaition board,, and so it applies to the current board also...

if anyone can give me a name of a lawyer in houston that deal with this kind of thing,, we already have agreed to all put in money to get an opinion letter written.. but what if the board and their attorney just ignore it..

to further emphasize what we'ere dealing with... at the meeting wednesday night,, when several owners questioned the legality of how the board was making decisions, without anyu minutes , making decisions without meeting, etc etc.. the board president literally responed,, "sue me" if you don't like it..

HELP

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
jennifer, our property does not fall under tuca.. it falls under the pre tuca condo law.. which specifically gives the board the right to not carry flood insureance .. we aren't in an insureance required mandated flood zone.. we actually didn't flood til the army corp of engineers opened the damns,, .. so while our property of course carries the required master policy,, it specifically does not cover floods..
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
I am starting to think that it would be more cost effective to hire an attorney to file a tro... just so we can get the necessary votes to remove the president,, before she gives these contractors another 100,000 for work not done..

Is it possible to file a TRO without having to know the ins and outs of legalese... I know TRO's are granted in divorce cases etc. but I have no idea, if i can just go down to the courthouse and fill out a form, or is it a pages long document that reqquires specifics,, statutes, legal case references etc..
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
in my original post, the last sentence .. says he sugguested 22 of the 26 buildings needed foundation work..

I wrote this in the wrong place,, The engineer of record who had overseen all of the work on our propertyh for the last 30 years, insisted that a recommendation to digup and put piiers on 22 of the 26 buildings was ridiculous and he does not agree..

the engineer who made the recommendation for 22 og 26 buildings needing work,, was the engineer the president of the board wanted to hire, who had never been ont he property, who had no beginning data,, he was just supposed to provide confirmation that the building were structurally safe.. instead he provided measurements and recomendations on what would be necessary to correct the foundatoins.. HOWEVER>> THE BUILDINGS ARE ^) YEARS OLD.. theyh are supposed to settle! none of them were structurally unsound,, none were not functioning,, all doors and windows were working.. etc..
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
does anyone have the name of an attorney in houston that will , for a resonable fee,, write a legal opinion letter .

Also, the managment company we use,, primarly provides accounting services.. bookkeeping, etc.

every time I have pleaded with the President of teh Management company for help. He says he works for the board, and can not tell them what they are doing is wrong unless they ask his opinion...

I have repeatedly requested copies of the contracts that have been entered, and the minutes of the meetings that document when this was discussed and voted on,, I've been given nothing, I've been told they aren't available...

yet the president continues to pay out tens of thousands of dollars to contractors for work that isn't legally allowed to be paid for out of common funds!
JaredC (Texas)
Posts: 264
Posted:
I can give you the name of our HOA attorney but I think the rules of this forum don't allow me to do so in public so if you email me [email protected] I will give you his name.
KimberlyW2 (Tennessee)
Posts: 38
Posted:
I have to ask. And, I am not being glib...this is a totally honest question to you.

Can you walk away? What happens if you just walk away and live somewhere else? Can you file bankruptcy and just surrender what was once your home?

I feel like this MUST be a complete and total burden that is likely destroying your mental and physical health.

I would not wish your nightmare on my very worst enemy.

I wish you all the best and for the ability to do what is in YOUR best interest.

God Bless you!

K.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/18/2018 3:58 AM
jennifer, our property does not fall under tuca.. it falls under the pre tuca condo law..

Many sections of TUCA apply to all condo regimes regardless of when they were built, and insurance is one of those sections.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
I am not a lawyer, but the way I read TUCA is that whatever insurance is required to cover, regardless of whether there is in fact coverage, that must be rebuilt by the association unless 80% vote not to re-build. If true, this would supersede governing docs.

From Section 82.111:

"(b) If a building contains units having horizontal boundaries described in the declaration, the insurance maintained under Subsection (a)(1), to the extent reasonably available, must include the units, but need not include improvements and betterments installed by unit owners.

Except as provided by this section, any portion of the condominium for which insurance is required that is damaged or destroyed shall be promptly repaired or replaced by the association unless the condominium is terminated, repair or replacement would be illegal under any state or local health or safety statute or ordinance, or at least 80 percent of the unit owners vote to not rebuild."

As to whether flood insurance is required. Well, I am not an insurance expert either so I am just giving some food for thought here. The statute says 'reasonably available'. Flood insurance for your condo regime is available, isn't it?

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PR/htm/PR.82.htm
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
oh kimberly,, if you only knew,,

I was acutally elected to the board after harvey.. the owners removed the previous board because of an egregious debris removal contract that was entered into. Right after Harvey, the president agreed to pay a small company to have 3 dumpster delivered.. somehow, this small company ended up convincing the president that they would handle all of the debris removal..(we're talking bout 125 homes being gutted and emptied onto our landscaping, it was worse than a third world country. Unfortunately ,as often happens when a disaster strikes, unscrupulous contractors come out of the woodwork.. this company ended up billing the hoa for 455,000 for the debris removal!... ,, I and several other owners , simultaneously called profession debris removal companies to come and give us estimates. and both the compnay i contacted and another owner who had a debris removal come give a quote,, these companies quoted, 125-155 thousand... and somehow the company that the president hired billed us 455,000.!.. and to top it off, when owners started asking questions, the president refused to admit that maybe he was being taken. Ends up, this company based on the invoices they were turning in, was charging the hoa.. 115.00 dollars a cubic yard!!......... the city of houston paid contractors 13.60 a square yard.. and on top of that, when documentation or reciepts were requested,, this company could not produce a single dump receipt,, despite charging us for what was claimed to be hundreds of dump fees.

anyway,,it's too much,,it's just too much,, we were able to stop the thievery by that company,, and a new temporary board was elected,(i was one of them).. but lo and behold,, i soon realized that i was the only resident owners that was on the board,, !!!.. every other board in the history of the property was resident owners.. but because of the disaster and everyone displaced, most people were evacuated, which basically left these other owners to be elected to the board, I didn't realize none of them were residents.. until we started meeting, and i noticed that every suggestion i had was met with indifference or lack of urgency.. Lo and behold, one day i saw two of the board members cars at the office, so i walked up to see what was up,, they were secretly meeting with real estate developers.. !!.,,. their entire purpose for getting on the board wsa to facilitate a sale,. Their condo's were just investment properties that they rented out. and obviously,, they would rather just get a cash payout and walk away,, rather than having to spend tens of thousands of dollars to rebuild... ... anyway,,, it went down hill from there... from that point on, i was enemy number one. .. Only when i finally stood up at a homeowner meeting and told the owners that i believed they were being given misinformation and incomplete information,. I said, an investor has every right to want to sell their property, but they have no right to feed the owners false information to trick them into selling.. ...anyway,, needless to say,, The rest of the board was pis*** and a month or so later, after I just couldn't take the incompetence and lies anymore, i resigned.. anyway,, much more has gone on.. that initial group resigned after it was revealed taht they were in fact manipulating the bids and tryuing to present the worst case scenario to the owners. and now boardzilla is president,, she was the only one who didn't resign, and she literally thinks she is the boss.. she has threatened owners who questoin her,, she has threatened employees that if they cross her, they are gone.. She has approved payments upwards of 180,000 for a company to come and clean out the inside of the units.. but guess what,, 91 of 125 units were already professionally demo'd to the studs and cleaned 9 months ago... !!.... yet ,, she's so incompetent, she hired this company and they ended up billing us 1800 a unit for 121 units.. so basically they claimed they had to completely demo and clean and treat 121 units. despite owners having records and pictures showing that thier units were already clean.... its gets worse..but i can't keep on writing, or i will be miserable all day..
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
kimberly, I live on the second floor. . so although our entire property was destroyed i was one of the lucky ones that didn't lose everything, I strongly feel that because I was spared , I felt strongly it was important for me to help in any way i could. To make sure that contractors didn't come in and rob us blind. like the debris removal company attempted to do.. I pretty much own my condo outright, I have almost paid it all off. So i could technically walk way and move somewhere else.. But it's just not in my nature to walk away when there is clearly incompetence and negligence going on here. ...
KimberlyW2 (Tennessee)
Posts: 38
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/22/2018 6:03 AM
kimberly, I live on the second floor. . so although our entire property was destroyed i was one of the lucky ones that didn't lose everything, I strongly feel that because I was spared , I felt strongly it was important for me to help in any way i could. To make sure that contractors didn't come in and rob us blind. like the debris removal company attempted to do.. I pretty much own my condo outright, I have almost paid it all off. So i could technically walk way and move somewhere else.. But it's just not in my nature to walk away when there is clearly incompetence and negligence going on here. ...

I think you have taken on way too much personal responsibility. Seems you are carrying this burden on your shoulders...and I have to ask how much help you are actually receiving from those that did lose everything?

You were spared, but it was a natural disaster and should not be your albatross.

My opinion and thoughts. I would do what I must to relieve the stress of it all. Sometimes it comes down to looking out for #1 and that's just the truth of it.

I wish you the very best.

K.
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
jenniferg11 .. wow,, I just reread your answer regarding what is required whether or not we have insurance.

Our property has a master policy, but not flood insurance.

I think you are saying that if a disaster occurs, but the insurance is no adequate to cover the costs to rebuild,, then the costs to rebuild must be assessed to all owners..

but you mentioned that the the board must include in the scope of work all things that would have been included if insurance was covering it.. is that correct? And you are saying that if insurance would cover it.. then ti doesn't matter what our declaration says as to who is responsible for what in the case of rebuild after a disaster.??
LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
jennifer, I just went and read the statute..

actually,, under the insurance provisions..

j) If the cost to repair damage to a unit or common element covered by the association's insurance is less than the amount of the applicable insurance deductible, the party who would be responsible for the repair in the absence of insurance shall pay the cost for the repair of the unit or common element.

Doesn't the above clause mean that if there isn't enough insureance than the owners will be responsible fore rebuilding what they normally would be responsible for according to our documents..??
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/28/2018 2:26 AM
jennifer, I just went and read the statute..

actually,, under the insurance provisions..

j) If the cost to repair damage to a unit or common element covered by the association's insurance is less than the amount of the applicable insurance deductible, the party who would be responsible for the repair in the absence of insurance shall pay the cost for the repair of the unit or common element.

Doesn't the above clause mean that if there isn't enough insureance than the owners will be responsible fore rebuilding what they normally would be responsible for according to our documents..??

The part you quoted here just means that like for us, the deductible is 10K. So if my unit were damaged and it cost 9K, then there would be no claim to the master policy. Either I or my insurance would pay it, or the association would, depending on who would be responsible to.

This part doesn't speak to inadequate master policy coverage, it speaks to damage under the deductible amount.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/28/2018 2:21 AM
jenniferg11 .. wow,, I just reread your answer regarding what is required whether or not we have insurance.

Our property has a master policy, but not flood insurance.

I think you are saying that if a disaster occurs, but the insurance is no adequate to cover the costs to rebuild,, then the costs to rebuild must be assessed to all owners..

but you mentioned that the the board must include in the scope of work all things that would have been included if insurance was covering it.. is that correct? And you are saying that if insurance would cover it.. then ti doesn't matter what our declaration says as to who is responsible for what in the case of rebuild after a disaster.??

Statues cannot be read in a vacuum, and I do not know anything about flood insurance, so I want to tread carefully here but I will tell you an example for us, and though I am not an attorney, our prior HOA attorney is the person who pointed me to this.

We had a fire. I was told one unit owner didn't have her own insurance, so only her exterior was rebuilt, I accepted that. After all, walls-in are on us, right? Wrong, in the case of fire or other disaster.

Our declaration defers to our by-laws. It lists out what unit owners are responsible for EXCEPT THAT which is covered by insurance per the bylaws. So we go to the bylaws, and they say that a master policy must be maintained that covers the INTERIORS to original specs, but any owner added improvements are on us.

Then we go to Chapter 82 of the Texas Property code, which mandates this coverage, so our bylaws are good, they match, but would be moot if they did not.

Under the statute, whether insurance is actually maintained, what is required TO be maintained falls back on the association regardless.

So on to your sit, which is a bit different. You didn't have flood insurance. Were you required to? I think so, but I am not 100% sure. The stature says 'reasonable available'. Is flood insurance reasonably available?

LaskaS (Texas)
Posts: 1,025
Posted:
our bylaws state that the board can vote not to carry it,, ,, flood insureance is very expensive. in houston.. we are not in the 100 year flood zone. we are in the 500 year flood zone. and thus, flood insureance in not manditory,,

I have a quick, question..

a contract was entered into with a company. the contract calls for a fee of 1000 dollars per unit to be charged,, to be paid 50% up front and 50% upon completion, per group of 20 units.

the invoices were presented. .. the president approved the invoice.,, there were no meeting minutes or records showing that the board had voted to pay the invoice.

now it turns out, the company that presented the invoices. actually charged for units that had already had the specified work done.. .. the president is claiming she didn't need board approval to approve the invoice be paid.

Every board i've ever been on, the president must get board approval before they can approve a payment be released.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/29/2018 11:53 PM
our bylaws state that the board can vote not to carry it,, ,, flood insureance is very expensive. in houston.. we are not in the 100 year flood zone. we are in the 500 year flood zone. and thus, flood insureance in not manditory,,


Your bylaws were written before TUCA. TUCA supersedes them.
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
..... The stature OVER-RIDING the bylaws says 'reasonably available'. Is flood insurance reasonably available? .....


..... we are not in the 100 year flood zone. we are in the 500 year flood zone. .....


Answer = YES

BOD did not have saidreasonably available and REQUIRED insurance, therefor non-feasance occurred.

Typical for amateur uneducated (about their fiduciary responsibility) volunteers.

IMO: they should be held personally accountable

BUT

they will 'skate' and probably resign 'scot-free'
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Im not sure why it would make sense to hold volunteer "amateurs" personally accountable (legally with monetary provisions in court?) for not reading provisions like this correctly - it would seem this could put a huge chill on well intentioned, community volunteers ...

To be clear, if you told me I would be held "personally" responsible with risk to my family and fortune, by trying to help out my neighborhood and then misreading or misunderstanding something like this - I would not volunteer.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/30/2018 7:24 AM
Im not sure why it would make sense to hold volunteer "amateurs" personally accountable (legally with monetary provisions in court?) for not reading provisions like this correctly - it would seem this could put a huge chill on well intentioned, community volunteers ...

To be clear, if you told me I would be held "personally" responsible with risk to my family and fortune, by trying to help out my neighborhood and then misreading or misunderstanding something like this - I would not volunteer.



Agreed. Few, including myself, would not volunteer.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 08/30/2018 8:44 AM
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/30/2018 7:24 AM
Im not sure why it would make sense to hold volunteer "amateurs" personally accountable (legally with monetary provisions in court?) for not reading provisions like this correctly - it would seem this could put a huge chill on well intentioned, community volunteers ...

To be clear, if you told me I would be held "personally" responsible with risk to my family and fortune, by trying to help out my neighborhood and then misreading or misunderstanding something like this - I would not volunteer.




Agreed. Few, including myself, would volunteer.

PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/30/2018 7:24 AM
Im not sure why it would make sense to hold volunteer "amateurs" personally accountable (legally with monetary provisions in court?) for not reading provisions like this correctly - it would seem this could put a huge chill on well intentioned, community volunteers ...

To be clear, if you told me I would be held "personally" responsible with risk to my family and fortune, by trying to help out my neighborhood and then misreading or misunderstanding something like this - I would not volunteer.

You ARE 'theoretically' personally responsible for acts of mal or non feasance.

Your D & O insurance only covers acts of mis feasance.

Read the actual policy for yourself.

mal-feasance: knowing or deliberate breach of fiduciary duty (we don't care what the law says ....)

non-feasance: knowing or CARELESS non performance of fiduciary duty (we probably should get legal advice, but ......)

mis-feasance: errors performed while DILIGENTLY attempting to perform fiduciary duty

Since the OPs BOD carelessly attempted to interpret legal documents w/o seeking expert opinions ?
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
I have - while sometimes it makes sense to play semantics games, it doesn’t in this case. I stopped playing “definitions” years ago.
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
Your insurers, both personal and corporate, did NOT.

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/30/2018 7:24 AM
Im not sure why it would make sense to hold volunteer "amateurs" personally accountable (legally with monetary provisions in court?) for not reading provisions like this correctly - it would seem this could put a huge chill on well intentioned, community volunteers ...

To be clear, if you told me I would be held "personally" responsible with risk to my family and fortune, by trying to help out my neighborhood and then misreading or misunderstanding something like this - I would not volunteer.

? I think all board members know that once they step into the role of director of a corporation they accept fiduciary responsibility and can either go through a lawsuit, in which they are defended by the HOA insurance provided attorney, and in some cases can be found personally liable.

It's part of why over and over on here many of us say 'You (whoever) need to consult an attorney before you do xyz or do't do xyz'.

Willful ignorance is not a defense. There is no excuse to be ignorant of the laws. Even an insurance agent advising is not enough. They are not lawyers. One would hope they understand the laws in the state that govern insurance master policies for HOAs and COAs but the final responsibility lies with the BOD to make sure adequate coverage is maintained.

GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
PaaN,

While this back and forth may constitute fun to you, many use this forum as a place to go in order to get credible rather than pedantic answers to their questions.

At a very minimum, you are, all by yourself, and in my opinion, decreasing the value of being involved.
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
Please specify, precisely, what erroneous statement(s) I have made
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GeorgeS21 on 08/30/2018 2:44 PM
PaaN,

While this back and forth may constitute fun to you, many use this forum as a place to go in order to get credible rather than pedantic answers to their questions.

At a very minimum, you are, all by yourself, and in my opinion, decreasing the value of being involved.

I disagree. While PaaN is sometimes a PITA, he often offers straight up and down the middle advice that is sound. His sense of humor might not be everyone's cup of tea but in my opinion he's a by-the-book guy, whether the book is state laws or an association's governing documents, who does his research. Which is more than a lot of board members do.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Geno,

I appreciate your opinion may be different than mine, but I don’t believe the forum was designed for any of us to spar with others or with those seeking help - whether they ar right or wrong is many times not the point.

We can be light hearted and occasionally humorous, but PaaN is tiring and, frankly, makes me want to simply spend my time elsewhere. I know I can spend the time elsewhere, but as you tell from my posts about helping neighborhoods out, this is serious to me. I want to help, or at least share my experiences.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
George, no one is ever going to agree 100% all the time. I appreciate your contrary views. PiTA's posts are more helpful, even when they're flip, than a couple of other posters who write things that are just flay out wrong 75% of the time. Those posters do real damage in my opinion. You might not like how PAAN expresses himself (sometimes he is quite a pain in the a**) but he's not usually wrong. You can always just scroll over his posts if you'd prefer to not read them. I do that reflexively for a couple of other regulars here. It's a technique that works and helps to keep me from becoming infuriated at times.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LaskaS on 08/28/2018 2:21 AM
jenniferg11 .. wow,, I just reread your answer regarding what is required whether or not we have insurance.

Our property has a master policy, but not flood insurance.

I think you are saying that if a disaster occurs, but the insurance is no adequate to cover the costs to rebuild,, then the costs to rebuild must be assessed to all owners..

but you mentioned that the the board must include in the scope of work all things that would have been included if insurance was covering it.. is that correct? And you are saying that if insurance would cover it.. then ti doesn't matter what our declaration says as to who is responsible for what in the case of rebuild after a disaster.??

Correct. The association must rebuild all that is required per state law to be covered by insurance, regardless of whether the insurance was actually maintained.

In Texas, for condos with more than one story, what is covered by the association on a regular basis is out the window for cases of fire and other disaster. Texas mandates that it all be covered.

Which makes total sense. It's not desirable to depend on individual owners to carry insurance or not. Not when their lack of doing so affects everyone. It's also not desirable to have units that are never rebuilt due to lack of individual insurance.

If your association was required to carry flood insurance, and it didn't, Paa is correct that this would be a breach of fiduciary duty on the part of the board members who declined to obtain and maintain what Texas state law demands.

PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
the issue:

mal, non, or mis (feasance)

the BOD did not ignore laws of which they were aware, so mal is out

the BOD did not read, research, and subsequently misinterpret the law, so mis (error) is out

The BOD did NOT read or research or get legal advice, so, IMO, they committed nonfeasance - very very very costly nonfeasance.

PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
ps.

While their 'governing documents' may, or may not, indemnify the BOD their D&O insurance will only cover misfeasance NOT mal or non feasance.

There probably is a fine line between non and mis, however, IMO, this insurance SNAFU trampled said line.

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaaN on 08/31/2018 7:33 AM
the issue:

mal, non, or mis (feasance)

the BOD did not ignore laws of which they were aware, so mal is out

the BOD did not read, research, and subsequently misinterpret the law, so mis (error) is out

The BOD did NOT read or research or get legal advice, so, IMO, they committed nonfeasance - very very very costly nonfeasance.


How do you know what that BOD did or didn't do?
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The OP states 'unawareness' of the statutes so mis is out.

leaves mal or non

If the OP's BOD actually WAS aware of the statutes then they are guilty of MALfeasance.

D'OH
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaaN on 08/31/2018 4:42 PM
I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.

The OP states 'unawareness' of the statutes so mis is out.

leaves mal or non

If the OP's BOD actually WAS aware of the statutes then they are guilty of MALfeasance.

D'OH

OP wasn't on the board until after the hurricane. What he did or didn't know is immaterial.

I also disagree with your statement if he was on and didn't know. That would be *willful ignorance*, as the statute is there for everyone to read, and an attorney should have been consulted on maintaining legally mandated insurance.
PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
'willful ignorance' = malfeasance

ignorance = nonfeasance

neither is covered by D&O insurance

while my 'manner of speaking' may have been misleading, I attempted to state that the BOD did NOT perform misfeasance (which is covered by D&O insurance) but the MUCH MORE SERIOUS act of nonfeasance

the HOA is SOL no matter how it happened

we actually agree, albeit communication is always an issue

PaaN
Posts: 219
Posted:
We are about to become REALLY confused:

+In theory nonfeasance is distinct from misfeasance and malfeasance. Malfeasance is any act that is illegal or wrongful. Misfeasance is an act that is legal but improperly performed. Nonfeasance, by contrast, is a failure to act that results in harm.

+NON FEASANCE. The non-performance of some act which ought to be performed. When a legislative act requires a person to do a thing, its nonfeasance will subject the party to punishment; as, if a statute require the supervisors of the highways to repair such highways, the neglect to repair them may be punished.

+Malfeasance is an affirmative act that is illegal or wrongful. In tort law it is distinct from misfeasance, which is an act that is not illegal but is improperly performed. It is also distinct from Nonfeasance, which is a failure to act that results in injury.

+MALFEASANCE, MISFEASANCE and NONFEASANCE:

MALFEASANCE
Means the “Commission of an Unlawful Act”.

MISFEASANCE
Means the “Improper performance of some lawful act”.

NONFEASANCE
Means “Failure to perform some act when there was an obligation to perform that act”.

In any event (read your policy) D&O Insurance only covers misfeasance 'performed in good faith' under the 'business judgment rule'.

I am now out of this topic.

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
I am not confused, and if we want to parse all the feasance's and breaches of fiduciary duty and so forth, my opinion is that should be a separate thread as that is not what the OP of this one needs help with.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Just more of the same. No value added.

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