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JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
OK so I felt like I had a complete understanding of this, but apparently I do not.

Our declaration lists out core basics on what is on the association and what is on owners, and that is elaborated upon in the by-laws.

The Declaration defers to the by-laws when it comes to insurance. It says the association is not responsible for xyz except for what the master policy obtained covers.

The by-laws, though they were written 10 years prior to TUCA, match TUCA's requirements. Which are that in the event of fire or other disaster, the insurance held must cover the interior of units to the original specifications, including improvements and fixtures, but excluding improvements and fixtures added by individual owners. It states that this insurance shall be primary.

Seems clear to me. The original Formica counter-tops, but not the granite that the homeowner upgraded to, etc.

No one seems to have ever heard of this. Not the rep for the master policy, not my insurance when I asked.

The rep for the master policy sent me the page of the current policy that spells out specifically that it definitely covers the interiors, but in a separate conversation said he'd never heard of governing documents that require this.

How can that be, when it's part of the Property code since 1994?

Statutes can't be read in a vacuum, but I can't find any case law saying anything different.

Assuming we had the correct coverage at the time of our fire, what am I missing here as to how we would be unable to obtain the funds for rebuilding the interior of a unit?

And on the question of whether the master policy must cover this, what am I missing that says it may not have to?
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Forgot to specify Texas Condo Association. Chapter 82 (TUCA) governs insurance for condo regimes no matter when they were built.
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
What exactly is your problem? Is the insurance company denying your claim? are the insurance companies in a p!55ing match between other carriers?

Did you suffer the loss as a owner or renter? DID YOU HIRE A CERTIFIED PUBLIC ADJUSTER????? CPA's work for YOU not the insurance carrier.

If its a matte of the insurance company not being aware of TUCA, that's on them and they may have sold you a bum policy, that is something you need
to talk to a lawyer about.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
This occurred 3 years ago, and the unit where the owner had no insurance of their own has not been rebuilt, and opinions of various natures abound as to our responsibility in this, apparently including various attorneys, or it would be done by now.

I simply want to understand this for myself. I don't like puzzles I can't solve! I endeavor to know our bylaws and state laws inside out, and this is part of it for the prior incident and God Forbid, any future fire or other disaster.

Here are excerpts from TUCA, chapter 82 of the Texas State Property Code. I would very much like to know how to interpret this in any way other than,

1) The Association must maintain this coverage, and

2) that if the insurance proceeds are insufficient, any units that need repair/reconstruction have to be done at the association's expense unless 80% of owners vote not to.

"(b) If a building contains units having horizontal boundaries described in the declaration, the insurance maintained under Subsection (a)(1), to the extent reasonably available, must include the units, but need not include improvements and betterments installed by unit owners.

...

Except as provided by this section, any portion of the condominium for which insurance is required that is damaged or destroyed shall be promptly repaired or replaced by the association unless the condominium is terminated, repair or replacement would be illegal under any state or local health or safety statute or ordinance, or at least 80 percent of the unit owners vote to not rebuild.

.....

Except as provided by this section, the cost of repair or replacement in excess of the insurance proceeds is a common expense, and the board may levy an assessment to pay the expenses in accordance with each owner's common expense liability."

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PR/htm/PR.82.htm

...

JaredC (Texas)
Posts: 264
Posted:
Question #1: Does the building contain units that have horizontal boundaries described in the declaration?
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Our HOA it is required that the owner rebuild on the lot after destruction. The HOA does not pay for that. Just requires you to build back. As for interior coverage, that makes no sense for a master policy to have that. Unless it's in reference to something like a lobby area. That I can understand if the lobby caught on fire/destroyed can see the HOA insurance kicking in to cover interior damage. I don't see it if your individual unit does.

Former HOA President
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JaredC on 08/02/2018 6:11 AM
Question #1: Does the building contain units that have horizontal boundaries described in the declaration?

Yes, they are all two story.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/02/2018 3:50 PM
Our HOA it is required that the owner rebuild on the lot after destruction. The HOA does not pay for that. Just requires you to build back. As for interior coverage, that makes no sense for a master policy to have that. Unless it's in reference to something like a lobby area. That I can understand if the lobby caught on fire/destroyed can see the HOA insurance kicking in to cover interior damage. I don't see it if your individual unit does.

These are condos.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 08/02/2018 3:50 PM
Our HOA it is required that the owner rebuild on the lot after destruction. The HOA does not pay for that. Just requires you to build back. As for interior coverage, that makes no sense for a master policy to have that. Unless it's in reference to something like a lobby area. That I can understand if the lobby caught on fire/destroyed can see the HOA insurance kicking in to cover interior damage. I don't see it if your individual unit does.

The declaration says unit owners are responsible for their units including fixtures and installations except that which is covered by the insurance procured by the association.

The by-laws say insurance *must be maintained* for unit interiors to original specifications.

So, the state statute is not really needed by my reading, but *it* does then say that any condos with 'horizontal boundaries' (and we have two stories) must carry such insurance, and further, that insurance proceeds or no, the units must be rebuilt, unless 80% of the members vote not to.

So, I am totally confused on how there is any confusion about this whatsoever, is why I am asking for assistance here.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
If these are condos then the responsible party to rebuild the unit would be the HOA. Look at the master policy of the HOA and then look at the homeowner policy.

Are these attached units?
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 4:48 PM
If these are condos then the responsible party to rebuild the unit would be the HOA. Look at the master policy of the HOA and then look at the homeowner policy.

Are these attached units?

Yes, legally defined as apartments. The rep for the insurance company said that the policy will cover whatever the by-laws say to, he will not list out exactly what that is. He says they are not lawyers. Claims adjusters come out and decide all that at the time of an incident.

My insurance company is like we never heard of that, we cover you in the event of a fire. I asked if they wanted the governing docs and the master policy and they said no, they are not lawyers.

(Caveat: this is not the actual agent I get on the phone, I would hope the actual agent has heard of what has been state law since 1994). She did say 'I am not a claims adjuster'. And claims adjusters don't get on the phone and answer hypotheticals, they deal with things when they happen.

My theory on that is that the master policy would not cover every instance of fire or other disaster, like if someone were liable for the fire, so my insurance company is not going to rely on that and neither should I.

*Though by my reading, it says that a unit owner being negligent does not give up their right for a master policy claim to be made, but the association could apply the deductible to them, so it would REALLY be in their best interests to have their own insurance and use it. The deductible is at least 10K.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Since I don't have a copy of your CCRs, not your Bylaws, and your master insurance policy, I can't tell you what should be done in your instance, as you refer to your units as apartments.

If you're on the Board, get in touch with your attorney, if not,, have the Board get in touch with the attorney or someone who can read and understand documents.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 5:11 PM
Since I don't have a copy of your CCRs, not your Bylaws, and your master insurance policy, I can't tell you what should be done in your instance, as you refer to your units as apartments.

If you're on the Board, get in touch with your attorney, if not,, have the Board get in touch with the attorney or someone who can read and understand documents.

You can see the state statue, so our governing docs aren't even needed. They are condos, condos are merely apartments that can be owned. This is a condo regime governed primarily by chapter 81 (built before 1994) but many critical portions of TUCA (chapter 82) apply to all condo regimes regardless of when they were built, Section 82.111 addressing insurance being one of them.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
You're the boss.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 6:23 PM
You're the boss.

?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I know what's supposed to be done, WHAT DO YOU think should be done?
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 08/02/2018 12:39 AM
What exactly is your problem? Is the insurance company denying your claim? are the insurance companies in a p!55ing match between other carriers?

Did you suffer the loss as a owner or renter? DID YOU HIRE A CERTIFIED PUBLIC ADJUSTER????? CPA's work for YOU not the insurance carrier.

If its a matte of the insurance company not being aware of TUCA, that's on them and they may have sold you a bum policy, that is something you need
to talk to a lawyer about.

Of course we want every dollar owned from insurance, but an additional part here is that it is not only on the insurance company.

"...any portion of the condominium for which insurance is required that is damaged or destroyed shall be promptly repaired or replaced by the association"

So it depends on what is *required to be covered*, regardless of whether it IS actually covered. Ultimately this all rests on the BOD to have the proper coverage, and rebuild regardless if they fail to, or if the insurance won't pay enough for whatever reason.

Do I want us to have to do that? In fact this is in direct conflict with my personal interest in not wanting a special assessment or dues increase to do this. But my quest is for what *is*, not what I may or may not *want*.

Not to mention, God Forbid if there is a worse fire or disaster in the future that we are not maintaining coverage for, it will cost me and everyone else a lot more.

Lots of people here have no mortgage and therefore no mandate to carry individual policies. Another thing on my list of suggestions to look into: Can we effectively mandate that people carry individual policies? How would we police that, if so?
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 6:40 PM
I know what's supposed to be done, WHAT DO YOU think should be done?

Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 4:48 PM
If these are condos then the responsible party to rebuild the unit would be the HOA.

If you mean this, this is my position with what I know. I came here to see if I am missing something that would mean I was incorrect.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By LetA on 08/02/2018 12:39 AM
DID YOU HIRE A CERTIFIED PUBLIC ADJUSTER????? CPA's work for YOU not the insurance carrier.


Thank you for this. At the time of this fire (over three years ago) I paid almost -0- attention to anything regarding the HOA. I will put this on my list of things to ask after.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I would review your CCRs and the insurance policy, that's all.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 6:23 PM
You're the boss.

I still don't understand this comment. I wish I was a total 'boss' as in a bad-ass legal-beagle, that would be cool. I am not the boss of anything, unfortunately.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 08/02/2018 6:50 PM
I would review your CCRs and the insurance policy, that's all.

Why would you ignore the state statute?
JaredC (Texas)
Posts: 264
Posted:
I tend to agree with you Jennifer that you are not missing anything. I interpret the situation as the HOA should pay for the repairs. However some insurance companies are total jackwagon's and might refuse to pay in which case you would need an attorney.

Also, this is not significantly related but you brought up the idea of paying the HOA deductible if you were responsible for the fire. I researched this for my own Texas HOA (209)years ago and here's the skinny on that. The HOA is still responsible for the repairs however the homeowner is responsible for the HOA deductible. A homeowner can add a rider to their own insurance policy known as "Loss Liability Coverage" which would kick in to pay the HOA insurance deductible if you started the fire. The reason for this is because a fire in your unit could easily affect all other units. The rider itself is super cheap and if you don't have that on your current personal policy I highly recommend calling your agent and having it added ASAP.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Our HOA (small, single family, patio homes) requires the HOA be named as a co-pay on home insurance policies. This to ensure one does not take the money and run leaving a pile of rubble. Our covenants also call for replacement construction to begin within 90 days and the home to be identical to the one destroyed though we would allow construction of a different type, original model to be built.

Knock on wood, we never had a home destroyed.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JaredC on 08/03/2018 11:02 AM
I tend to agree with you Jennifer that you are not missing anything. I interpret the situation as the HOA should pay for the repairs. However some insurance companies are total jackwagon's and might refuse to pay in which case you would need an attorney.

Also, this is not significantly related but you brought up the idea of paying the HOA deductible if you were responsible for the fire. I researched this for my own Texas HOA (209)years ago and here's the skinny on that. The HOA is still responsible for the repairs however the homeowner is responsible for the HOA deductible. A homeowner can add a rider to their own insurance policy known as "Loss Liability Coverage" which would kick in to pay the HOA insurance deductible if you started the fire. The reason for this is because a fire in your unit could easily affect all other units. The rider itself is super cheap and if you don't have that on your current personal policy I highly recommend calling your agent and having it added ASAP.

OK, thank you. That second part I am not entirely sure about.

What you said here is how I interpret it. Sally leaves the stove on, causing a fire. Sally can still use the master policy, or rather the association must on her behalf, but that doesn't benefit Sally, since she gets hit with a 10K deductible.

Other people tell me 'NO WAY. It's Sally's insurance, period'. And I did read other verbiage that said what you and I wrote applies to common elements, not an individual unit.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
I am never going to practice in Texas, so I don't care to be an expert in how you do things there. In California, different story. Many CCRs in California, will not allow two fire or hazard insurance polices on the same property. If there is a master policy covered by the HOA, the homeowner CANNOT have a duplicate policy. They should have, and in some instances, required to have a HO6 policy to cover the inside of a unit.

Let's say Sally leaves her stove on and her unit burns down. The HOA will rebuild under the master policy and charge Sally the deductible, which could be $25K or higher in some cases. Then the master policy will go after Sally for possible negligence and Sally could use her insurance to maybe recoup the deductible or maybe Sally has loss assessment insurance.

But in reality, pretty cut and dry.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Here is my other question. How is any of this 'confidential'? How is everything related to the fire, the claims process, the reconstruction NOT part of 'association records' that are open to members upon request?

JaredC (Texas)
Posts: 264
Posted:
Yip, Richard is right. Your individual policy pays for the master policy deductible (if you have the loss liability coverage) because only one insurance will pay for the repairs. Now the individual policy will pay for a new stove, couches, clothing etc. Anything insurance claims or activity by the HOA is completely public. Section 552 (Public Information) is the Texas law specifies what is public info. Basically speaking anything NOT directly related to homeowner finances or personal information is public. For example the HOA doesn't have to tell me John Doe's account balance in unit #50 but if I ask for all insurance costs and claims made by the HOA for the fire in John's unit that is public. Section 209.005 of the TPC gives people guidance on how to write the letters officially requesting public information.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
I'm being told again that I have no right to know anything pertaining to this because it's about an individual unit.

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