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May I know who got the most votes?

Started by JenniferG11 • 19 replies • 685 views

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JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Minor issue really, I just have a continual bee in my bonnet anytime I and/or others want to know something they won't tell us. Open records is *very* broadly interpreted by Texas courts. I see no reason why this could possibly be confidential.

Got an email announcing the new board listed in alphabetical order rather than in order of votes received.

We only know who received the least, as they were not elected.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I think it's OK to tell homeowners X number of votes were cast and here are the numbers for each person - list them in numerical order with the winners on top. It may be the board is afraid this will morph into who voted for who and that's not necessarily for public consumption (a stretch in my opinion, but that's how some people may feel).

That said, I have to ask once again - did you ask the board? If so, what did they say?
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/18/2018 9:07 AM
I think it's OK to tell homeowners X number of votes were cast and here are the numbers for each person - list them in numerical order with the winners on top. It may be the board is afraid this will morph into who voted for who and that's not necessarily for public consumption (a stretch in my opinion, but that's how some people may feel).

That said, I have to ask once again - did you ask the board? If so, what did they say?

For good reason, I have been going through the CAM lately. That is really the order of things. She has not responded to my request or that of another homeowner. I 'escalated' my request to the President citing Texas open records. I like the President. I don't think he's trying to hide anything, just a bit overwhelmed with taking this position and things flying at him constantly. I carefully pick and choose what to bother with out of respect.
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
I think not disclosing the vote totals is pretty standard. I tend not to do it as a courtesy, because the vote may be very lopsided and I don't want to embarrass a candidate by revealing that he or she received few or no votes.

When I conduct an election, the votes are tabulated by myself and one or two homeowners who have no relationship to any of the candidates. Once the votes are counted, the ballots and tabulation sheets are sealed in an envelope that is only opened in the event of a recount.

If your CAM didn't do the tabulation, she may not know the totals. The Texas property code prohibits anyone but the tabulators from accessing the ballots so she may not be able to do her own count if she wasn't an original tabulator.

Are you simply curious or concerned that something was amiss in the voting? There is a process in the property code for requesting a recount, but it needs to be done within 15 days of the election.

You can always send an official records request via certified mail, which will compel the Association to either produce the information you want or set up a time for you to come to the office and view the records, or explain to you why they cannot be produced. Secret ballots are permitted, and you probably won't prevail if you want to see actual ballots.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
CA statutes state that the candidates' names and number of votes each received must be publicly posted xx days after the election. For that reason, no one in CA HOAs should have to "request" this tally.

TX has no such statute, Jennifer?
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
Texas does not have such a statute.

Jennifer, I just saw in another thread you are in a condo. My post referenced the property code that applies to single family HOAs. What do your governing documents say about voting, ballot access, etc.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
I have never seen that in TX statue specifically but in general hardly anything may be confidential. I bothered the CAM and President citing 'open records' in Texas and got the answer. I was just asking here to double check there wasn't something I was missing.

Also, I am conditioned from the past year not to expect fast or correct answers. We were obstructed all the time about everything, and the CAM's hands were tied by some board members who were totally against transparency on anything.

Maybe all that is better now

JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BarbaraT1 on 07/18/2018 10:03 AM
I think not disclosing the vote totals is pretty standard. I tend not to do it as a courtesy, because the vote may be very lopsided and I don't want to embarrass a candidate by revealing that he or she received few or no votes.

When I conduct an election, the votes are tabulated by myself and one or two homeowners who have no relationship to any of the candidates. Once the votes are counted, the ballots and tabulation sheets are sealed in an envelope that is only opened in the event of a recount.

If your CAM didn't do the tabulation, she may not know the totals. The Texas property code prohibits anyone but the tabulators from accessing the ballots so she may not be able to do her own count if she wasn't an original tabulator.

Are you simply curious or concerned that something was amiss in the voting? There is a process in the property code for requesting a recount, but it needs to be done within 15 days of the election.

You can always send an official records request via certified mail, which will compel the Association to either produce the information you want or set up a time for you to come to the office and view the records, or explain to you why they cannot be produced. Secret ballots are permitted, and you probably won't prevail if you want to see actual ballots.


I'm not asking how many. Just who got the most in order. Taking the temp of the community.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 07/18/2018 9:07 AM
I think it's OK to tell homeowners X number of votes were cast and here are the numbers for each person - list them in numerical order with the winners on top. It may be the board is afraid this will morph into who voted for who and that's not necessarily for public consumption (a stretch in my opinion, but that's how some people may feel).

I'm not sure what is common in TX, but our elections are by secret ballot so nobody does know or can know who voted for who. I certainly agree that ballot counts should be made available on request, and in my state I think that would be a statutory requirement.
Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Actually the rules in California is that notice to the members must be given 15 days after the election. Posting is only one method. I will either mail or email within that time frame. If statements are to be mailed within that time, I will save cost and put it there. Otherwise they will be mailed separately and people opting -in will be emailed to reduce costs. If they have a newsletter or website, results will also be posted there.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We post the tally on our mailroom bulletin boards, on our website and in our monthly newsletter, so we don't have to send anything to individual owners.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
It may be the property manager is just as overwhelmed with assorted requests - she is responsible for the daily operations of the association after all and that takes time. You don't say how much time has passed since you made your request - could it be the property manager has asked the president and is waiting for a response?

In fact, here's the rule of thumb I always work with - if there's an issue regarding maintenance, amount of assessments or that type of daily operation issue, I go to the property manager. For association issues, such as elections, meeting dates, etc, I go to the board. If your president is overwhelmed with questions, it's time for the rest of the board to step up and oversee certain issues so the work is shared - you remember the saying about 80% of the work being done by 20% of the people? That's probably the issue you have.

Which is why you really need to go to other people on the board with your question if the president is busy. All they have to do is publish the numbers in a newsletter or on the association website (preferably both) and the problem is solved.
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/18/2018 10:03 AM
CA statutes state that the candidates' names and number of votes each received must be publicly posted xx days after the election. For that reason, no one in CA HOAs should have to "request" this tally.

TX has no such statute, Jennifer?

No. We should. I like the way yours is worded. If the board decides to proceed with by-law changes, this is something I would want to suggest putting in them.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
Well I just moved to the great State of Texas from Ca. and I am learning things are done a little different here. Most things are much better. I see no reason in the world why any board would want to seem anything other than transparent on an election. The data is the data and if the votes were collected and counted by an official Inspector of election (usually the PM) opened at the Annual meeting and the results shared with those in attendance why the results are not public information.

To be anything other than transparent would make me very suspicious.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MarkM19 on 07/19/2018 10:13 AM
Well I just moved to the great State of Texas from Ca. and I am learning things are done a little different here. Most things are much better. I see no reason in the world why any board would want to seem anything other than transparent on an election. The data is the data and if the votes were collected and counted by an official Inspector of election (usually the PM) opened at the Annual meeting and the results shared with those in attendance why the results are not public information.

To be anything other than transparent would make me very suspicious.

Yes, all the tallies should be available. I wasn't particularly interested in that, but had I been there is no reason not to say how many people voted, and how many votes each candidate received. There might be an irregularity that needs looking into. (In general, not this specific case).

These numbers were not announced at the meeting. Only who got the positions.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JenniferG11 on 07/19/2018 9:56 AM
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/18/2018 10:03 AM
CA statutes state that the candidates' names and number of votes each received must be publicly posted xx days after the election. For that reason, no one in CA HOAs should have to "request" this tally.

TX has no such statute, Jennifer?


No. We should. I like the way yours is worded. If the board decides to proceed with by-law changes, this is something I would want to suggest putting in them.

Actually the statue is different then someone stated:

Civil Code §5120. Counting Ballots; Irrevocable.
(b) The tabulated results of the election shall be promptly reported to the board and shall be recorded in the minutes of the next meeting of the board and shall be available for review by members of the association. Within 15 days of the election, the board shall give general notice pursuant to Section 4045 of the tabulated results of the election.

Tabulated results does not mean putting the candidates name and number of votes on a sheet of paper. It could be, but it could also be in the order of the votes they received. Some places prefer not to shame someone who may have gotten a low number of votes or none at all. I use two templates, one with the number of votes and another with the place each candidate came in. The decision of which template that is used is left up to the board. If someone wants to see the actual numbers, that is given to them freely.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Tabulations are a way of classifying or systematizing something. There has to be an object that is named whether it's candidates or some other thing: what is it we're counting? To list the names of the winning candidates randomly, then list the losers, AND have a separate list of random numbers/votes is nonsensical.

I know what you mean about the embarrassment of losing badly and that's why, even though we should, we do not announce the tabulations at the Annual Meeting, just the top vote getters who've been elected. But the tabulations are elsewhere as I wrote above including, of course, in the minutes of the meeting.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/19/2018 2:17 PM
Tabulations are a way of classifying or systematizing something. There has to be an object that is named whether it's candidates or some other thing: what is it we're counting? To list the names of the winning candidates randomly, then list the losers, AND have a separate list of random numbers/votes is nonsensical.

I know what you mean about the embarrassment of losing badly and that's why, even though we should, we do not announce the tabulations at the Annual Meeting, just the top vote getters who've been elected. But the tabulations are elsewhere as I wrote above including, of course, in the minutes of the meeting.

We will say in the notice when we leave off the actual votes how many votes were cast and the order in which each candidate placed.

This came from a legal opinion.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
But the final count is not the "tabulation, it's the score or total or sum.

I do know one of our candidates was comforted that she lost by only two votes (out of 91 cast), used a different approach in her campaign the next year and won--by 6 votes! On the other hand, the candidates who got 9 & 15 votes wisely gave up.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 07/19/2018 4:20 PM
But the final count is not the "tabulation, it's the score or total or sum.

I do know one of our candidates was comforted that she lost by only two votes (out of 91 cast), used a different approach in her campaign the next year and won--by 6 votes! On the other hand, the candidates who got 9 & 15 votes wisely gave up.

Whatever.

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