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Atty. Response to Special meeting petition.

Started by TN1 • 28 replies • 1200 views

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TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Confused, re. Special meeting petition from HOA home owners,. Not from me.

As one of the HOA Board of Director's which also officially holds the title of HOA Board Secrertary, I was presented with a signed Petition from association homeowners to hold a Special meeting pertaining to a decision made by HOA board of Directors to convert from Curbside mailbox delivery to CBU boxes for USPS mail delivery to the homeowners.

As such the Petition met the requirements persuiant to California Civil code and our own bylaws

"Who May Call a Meeting. As provided for in Corporations Code §7510(e), special meetings may be called for any lawful purpose by the following:
Petition. By petition of the membership signed by at least 5% of the members.

As an Official Board of Directors member and as Official Secretary,. I fwd. the Petition to our Property management company rep. And the fellow Board of Directors.

Today I'm the mail I received a certified envelope that had been sent by our HOA property Mgmt.
Co. Inside was a letter from an atty.

Kxxxxxx xxxxxxx
ATTORNEY AT LAW
XXX xxxx xxxx
Xxxx xxxx CALIFORNIA 93103
Tele xxx
EMAIL: kxxxx [email protected]
July 3, 2018

Mr. XXX xxxx
Xxxx xxxx xxxx
Xxxxxx, California

Petition for Special Meeting

Dear Mr. Xxxxxxx

Your request for a special meeting of the membership of the xxxx xxxx HOA has been referred to me for review. It appears that the relief you are requesting, namely the removal of the community mailboxes and a member vote to replace those mailboxes with individual secured U.S. postal approved mailboxes, is something that the Association cannot provide. Regardless of the outcome of any vote, the Postal Service has made it clear that it will not approve individual secured mailboxes at xxxx xxxxx.
If you still wish to proceed with the member meeting, please revise the petition to request relief that is acceptable to the Postal Service. The required number of qualified new signatures must accompany such a request. Please note that several members who signed the original petition have already contacted the Association management to request that their names be withdrawn, as they have indicated they signed the petition in error.
Barring the submission of a revised petition, the Association will schedule the member meeting but will be advising the membership that the requested relief is not available. Further, the membership will be advised that should your request receive the necessary votes for passage, the membership will be left without secured mailboxes of any form, and the problems with mail theft will continue. Depending upon the expense of removal of the community mailboxes and replacement with unsecured boxes, the membership may also be facing a special assessment, as the cost of the community boxes had been included in the reserve study, but removal costs were not.
Please advise the Association manager of your decision as soon as possible so that a timely notice of the member meeting can be prepared should it remain necessary. Thank you.

Kxxxxx xxxxxxx
Association Counsel
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
The CBU Concrete pads were not poured to USPS Specs,. I.E. pads 3' 6" x 4' by 3 1/2 depth with, no pad base prepwork under the pad. ( Only removed topsoil and grass to accodimate the 2 by 4 framework he made for pouring the pads.

The CBU's have just been installed on the newly poured concrete pads which he did not level and has placed 2, 3, 4 and a few large washers under the legs of the CBU's trying to make the CBU,s level however the arrow locks have not been installed and the old mailboxes have not been removed yet.

Additionally the contractor placed the CBU's facing the curb which will cause homeowners and mail carriers to stand in the street for mail.

Any thoughts ?
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
What part are you confused over?
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
The Petition was initiated and I had nothing to do with the Petition other than informing fellow board members and Mgmt. Co. Of receipt of the Petition which was only done as per Calif code and our own bylaws as being the secretary on record and a board of directors.

This is not " My Petition". I don't have any say as to it.
My name does not appear anywhere on the Petition. I did not sign the Petition,. Nor did I sign for it.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Also,. The Board has not met, nor had any discussions what so ever regarding this Petition or anything pertaining to it. If they did,. they failed to notify me of any such discussions,. decisions, in the matter.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Seems like you would speak to the attorney as to the proper way to notify either the entire membership or just the person heading up this petition regarding the impossibility of their request. And the fact that he seems to feel a meeting must be held, get clarity on that.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TN1 on 07/06/2018 12:36 AM
The CBU Concrete pads were not poured to USPS Specs,. I.E. pads 3' 6" x 4' by 3 1/2 depth with, no pad base prepwork under the pad. ( Only removed topsoil and grass to accodimate the 2 by 4 framework he made for pouring the pads.

The CBU's have just been installed on the newly poured concrete pads which he did not level and has placed 2, 3, 4 and a few large washers under the legs of the CBU's trying to make the CBU,s level however the arrow locks have not been installed and the old mailboxes have not been removed yet.

Additionally the contractor placed the CBU's facing the curb which will cause homeowners and mail carriers to stand in the street for mail.

Any thoughts ?

Is this you saying this, or are you quoting from the petition?
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
The letter also went out via email to all the Board of Directors as an attachment from our Mgmt. co. If I'm not mistaken,. The atty. charges each time we use them.
Who approved that action ?
Obviously someone has discussed this matter without making the entire board aware or board approval.

The issue at hand is, Its painting me as being a party of the Petition,. Which I am NOT.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
That is just my observations of the work the contractor has performed to date.
USPS regs. specify when CBU's are installed between the sidewalk and curb,. They are to face the curb,. Not the street.
Regardless,. This is Not my battle and have no desire to be a part of this battle as an individual in any way and plan on conveying that to the Atty. in mrng.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TN1 on 07/06/2018 2:14 AM
The letter also went out via email to all the Board of Directors as an attachment from our Mgmt. co. If I'm not mistaken,. The atty. charges each time we use them.
Who approved that action ?
Obviously someone has discussed this matter without making the entire board aware or board approval.

The issue at hand is, Its painting me as being a party of the Petition,. Which I am NOT.

Seems like your MC contacted the attorney as a result of you forwarding the petition to them. As for the charge, well, sometimes that cannot be avoided, the need to consult a professional. As for doing that w/o approval, that is something y'all will have to address with the MC company. That they need board approval before doing that. A lot of HOAs allow their MC to.

As for it not being you that did this petition or had anything to do with it other than receiving and forwarding it, that is what I meant by you need to clarify with the MC and the attorney and decide how to proceed.

Seems like the attorney favors following p's and q's. Holding the meeting as requested, even though what they want to vote on cannot be accomplished. Personally, I like the minding the p's and q's approach. It is sometimes annoying, but better than opening up to consequences of not doing so.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Thank you for your clairification.
I too prefer the P's & Q's approach.
Unfortunitaly not everyone takes that approach.
I do have a concern with certain aspects of the job like failure to comply with ADA / handicap accessiblity and the contractor putting them in facing the wrong direction.

I was even there when the postmaster told the contractor the correct direction to install them but no one seems to want to hold him accountable. (. Not to mention, he got caught dumping excess mixed cement in the highly posted adjacent ecological preserve.

But all that seems to have gone out the window for the sudden GITTER DONE ATTITUDE of some.

Something just seems a miss here or is it just me.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
More than one issue.

If you’re on the Board and the Secretary, you do what is required and coordinate on the SM.

Who is responsible for the contracted work? Who signed the contract? Is MC tasked to do the work on behalf of the Board?

More communication to the community might make sense ...tell them immediately about the SM and what the outcome will be.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Unfortunately lack of communication / clarity with the association home owners along with failure to adaquately post the intentions of this project which was not a scheduled Capitol project has created a lot of the issues.

*Regular mailbox replacement was being funded for mailbox replacement in 2026.
CBU cluster boxes was never mentioned and was not the postmasters idea).

The MC was tasked with the job of getting bids (singular).
One of those, hey I know a guy that previously did some work for M.C. , no wait that story changed and the contractor was supposedly recommended by the post master.
( Which is USC Federally Prohibited by law and could fall into a Code of Conduct issue).

It's still uncertain if the contractor is licensed for the type of work he's performing.

The M.C. isn't in the same County as our HOA,
Different Postmaster, etc.

Which isn't really overseeing the project at all and one's tending to the kitchen.
GeorgeS21 (Florida)
Posts: 3,808
Posted:
Waaay more than one issue.

So, unauthorized capital expenditure?

Bad construction of unauthorized capital project?

Lack of oversight of unauthorized construction?

No plan to fix unauthorized construction?

Original rationale was a lie because you weren’t being forced into clustered boxes by USPS?

Maybe I’m getting mixed up?
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Your not getting mixed up at all.
You hit the nail on the head with each of the items you mentioned.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TN1 on 07/06/2018 2:14 AM
The letter also went out via email to all the Board of Directors as an attachment from our Mgmt. co. If I'm not mistaken,. The atty. charges each time we use them. Who approved that action ? Obviously someone has discussed this matter without making the entire board aware or board approval. The issue at hand is, Its painting me as being a party of the Petition,. Which I am NOT.


I agree: What transpired is not cool. Put 'attorney communications regarding Special Petition' on the next board meeting's agenda and getting this sorted out. Ultimately I think a designated director should take the questions that come from this meeting and get answers from the attorney. Depending on what is decided at this meeting, have a talk with the manager, explaining how things became confused and coming up with ways to prevent this in the future.

Some HOA managers do have pretty much carte blanche to talk with the HOA attorney, on the members' dime. I would restrict the manager to only certain topics. This topic would be one that I think the manager should forward to the board for its action.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Recently, I had a similar situation with an association I manage. We had several "break-ins" of on street mailboxes and a discussion was made to do something about it.

I sent letters out to all homeowners that we were going to have a Town Hall meeting for all who attended to discuss the pros and cons. It is in the Post Office best interest to have cluster boxes and they "have" a program to pay for them.

The first meeting, for those that chose to attend, 5 out of 90 homes was to have cluster boxes. Then a week later one person spoke up, who didn't attend the meeting saying they didn't want the boxes, but rather keep them at their curbs. Another meeting was called, different people showed up and it was voted on to go to more secure individual boxes at the curb. We had done a survey outlining the pros and cons, 50/50 split.

The process required secret ballot voting as the increase cost was over 5% of the annual expenses and the increased cost was not a requirement. They were approved 46 to 7.

I haven't seen your petition and don't know exactly what the petitioners are requesting. I have to assume that the Postal Service didn't require the cluster boxes, or THEY should have paid for the boxes and installation. You also mentioned the current curb boxes are still there, whether they have lock or not is not the issue. IMHO, the attorney is full of shit.

The cluster boxes have to be properly installed and to USPS specs. It sounds like there are problems.

What the Board should have done was have a Town Hall meeting, lay out the pros and cons, with bids on hand to have an informed discussion. Do a community wide survey, build consensus. If it requires a secret ballot vote because of the amount of money being spent, that should have done.

What the attorney stated was scare tactics, which is what they happen to be good at.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TN1 on 07/06/2018 12:17 AM
Confused, re. Special meeting petition from HOA home owners,. Not from me.

As one of the HOA Board of Director's which also officially holds the title of HOA Board Secrertary, I was presented with a signed Petition from association homeowners to hold a Special meeting pertaining to a decision made by HOA board of Directors to convert from Curbside mailbox delivery to CBU boxes for USPS mail delivery to the homeowners.

As such the Petition met the requirements persuiant to California Civil code and our own bylaws

"Who May Call a Meeting. As provided for in Corporations Code §7510(e), special meetings may be called for any lawful purpose by the following:
Petition. By petition of the membership signed by at least 5% of the members.

As an Official Board of Directors member and as Official Secretary,. I fwd. the Petition to our Property management company rep. And the fellow Board of Directors.

Today I'm the mail I received a certified envelope that had been sent by our HOA property Mgmt.
Co. Inside was a letter from an atty.

Kxxxxxx xxxxxxx
ATTORNEY AT LAW
XXX xxxx xxxx
Xxxx xxxx CALIFORNIA 93103
Tele xxx
EMAIL: kxxxx [email protected]
July 3, 2018

Mr. XXX xxxx
Xxxx xxxx xxxx
Xxxxxx, California

Petition for Special Meeting

Dear Mr. Xxxxxxx

Your request for a special meeting of the membership of the xxxx xxxx HOA has been referred to me for review. It appears that the relief you are requesting, namely the removal of the community mailboxes and a member vote to replace those mailboxes with individual secured U.S. postal approved mailboxes, is something that the Association cannot provide. Regardless of the outcome of any vote, the Postal Service has made it clear that it will not approve individual secured mailboxes at xxxx xxxxx.
If you still wish to proceed with the member meeting, please revise the petition to request relief that is acceptable to the Postal Service. The required number of qualified new signatures must accompany such a request. Please note that several members who signed the original petition have already contacted the Association management to request that their names be withdrawn, as they have indicated they signed the petition in error.
Barring the submission of a revised petition, the Association will schedule the member meeting but will be advising the membership that the requested relief is not available. Further, the membership will be advised that should your request receive the necessary votes for passage, the membership will be left without secured mailboxes of any form, and the problems with mail theft will continue. Depending upon the expense of removal of the community mailboxes and replacement with unsecured boxes, the membership may also be facing a special assessment, as the cost of the community boxes had been included in the reserve study, but removal costs were not.
Please advise the Association manager of your decision as soon as possible so that a timely notice of the member meeting can be prepared should it remain necessary. Thank you.

Kxxxxx xxxxxxx
Association Counsel


Sounds like these mailboxes were recently done in a new subdivision and the DEVELOPER screwed up!!! Keep in mind the letter is potentially from the Developer’s Attorney who will be trying to get everyone to agree to something that is potentially not right for the sole purpose of protecting his client with the HOA later being responsible for fixing. If your Postal Service and Local Government has statutes regarding the issue ... then make sure those are now followed and fixed by the current Developer!!!
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
The developer has long been out of the picture.
Final phase was completed over 7 years ago.
Individual curbside mailbox delivery has always been the agreed mode of delivery since the beginning. The sole reason this came about,.
Back near the end of Jan 2018,. Close to time when W-2's would be mailed out,. Some of the Curbside maiboxes were ransacked and the culprets left the mailbox doors open on several different occassions during that time frame.

(The culprets had gone down several of the HOA streets randomly opening mailboxes late at night after midnight and early morning 4:00 am). ( Not exactly a premium time for anyone to get much from most mailboxes.

All of the activity was caught on individual homeowner cams. Unfortunately it could not be determined if anything was actually taken from the boxes and the individuals and vehicles used 1 white Ford pickup and one small white foreign sedan could not be positively id'd. ( Videos were cooberated and turned over to law enforcement.
(video footage inclusive of actions caught on camera by Deputy Sheriffs home cams).

Our HOA was not the only neighborhood that this occurred. Ultimetly several people were arrested and No other mail tampering has occurred for close to 6 months.

Initially fellow board members dismissed the notion,. Then after seeing the videos,. decided to look into locking curbside mailboxes that are USPS approved. Never any mention of switching to clusterboxes and relocations cbu boxes to obsecure out of the way locations and with no real notification to home owners.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Many of the homeowners are still unaware of any of it what so ever. Several board members and the MC felt it would be best to wait to make the home owners aware and just spring it on them as to a date,.time to come get a keys which CBU will be theirs and where it's located which in some instances is blocks away in poorly lit out of the way areas with little to no one in the close visual vicinity.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TN1 on 07/07/2018 1:46 AM
The developer has long been out of the picture.
Final phase was completed over 7 years ago.
Individual curbside mailbox delivery has always been the agreed mode of delivery since the beginning. The sole reason this came about,.
Back near the end of Jan 2018,. Close to time when W-2's would be mailed out,. Some of the Curbside maiboxes were ransacked and the culprets left the mailbox doors open on several different occassions during that time frame.

(The culprets had gone down several of the HOA streets randomly opening mailboxes late at night after midnight and early morning 4:00 am). ( Not exactly a premium time for anyone to get much from most mailboxes.

All of the activity was caught on individual homeowner cams. Unfortunately it could not be determined if anything was actually taken from the boxes and the individuals and vehicles used 1 white Ford pickup and one small white foreign sedan could not be positively id'd. ( Videos were cooberated and turned over to law enforcement.
(video footage inclusive of actions caught on camera by Deputy Sheriffs home cams).

Our HOA was not the only neighborhood that this occurred. Ultimetly several people were arrested and No other mail tampering has occurred for close to 6 months.

Initially fellow board members dismissed the notion,. Then after seeing the videos,. decided to look into locking curbside mailboxes that are USPS approved. Never any mention of switching to clusterboxes and relocations cbu boxes to obsecure out of the way locations and with no real notification to home owners.


Sigh ... the HOA should have had a meeting of the members regarding their mail delivery options and potential changes. However, if it is changed the members DO have the authority to make sure any other placement of the mailboxes does meet your Local Government Ordinances AND the USPS requirements.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Special meeting has been scheduling for end of August against great resistance.

Clusterboxes have already been installed,. However the have been installed on new concrete pads between sidewalk at curbline opening facing street. Homeowners and Postal workers will have to stand in street at gutter for mail. ( Which are facing the wrong direction ).

Local postmaster is now saying that's ok. and MC and remainder of Directors think the Postmaster " knows what he's doing" and it's ok.

Any thoughts ?
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
CBU's have been installed on Concrete pads in what was grass area between sidewalk and curb, facing and opening towards streets. Postmaster supposedly has said that's ok.
Concrete pads were not screeted and floated anywhere close to level,. Contractor has placed at least 4, 5, 6 large washers between base and concrete in attempts to level them.
Also, some lag bolts were to long and he stacked 4,5, and up to 6 washers between some of the hex bolt heads and base mounting holes he used to install them.

Very pour installation.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Not surprising the local postmaster said, "close enough". I'd pivot to adding a reserve item to your reserves schedule so they can be replaced/repaired properly in however many years.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
In the community I lived in, we had three streets that housed the cluster boxes, all on inclines. The concrete pads were level with the incline, and the boxes were leveled accordingly. Not sure how yours were done, but the boxes may not be flush with the pad, but built up to be level.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TN1 on 07/12/2018 4:30 AM
Special meeting has been scheduling for end of August against great resistance.

Clusterboxes have already been installed,. However the have been installed on new concrete pads between sidewalk at curbline opening facing street. Homeowners and Postal workers will have to stand in street at gutter for mail. ( Which are facing the wrong direction ).

Local postmaster is now saying that's ok. and MC and remainder of Directors think the Postmaster " knows what he's doing" and it's ok.

Any thoughts ?


Tell the Post Office and the Contractor that for the “safety” of both the mail delivery person and the owners that the cluster boxes need to be turned around so the individuals accessing are not standing in the Street. However, need to potentially wait to see if at the Special Meeting the Owner’s want to go back to the unsecured mailboxes they had in the past. Whether mailboxes are secured or not tampering with them is against Federal Law and can be $250,000 fine or 3 years in Federal Prison for EACH offense. If you go back to the curb side boxes then there are stickers noting the offense which can be obtained from the Post Office to put on the mailboxes: https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/radDocs/tipvandl.htm
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
People have been standing in the street for the past 100 years retrieving their mail.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
The cluster boxes in my area a placed on the opposite side of the sidewalk from the street OR in Common Areas to now avoid street for safety. They do not want multiple people collecting their mail at the same time standing in the street. Just because something may have been done for 100 years does not now make it right. Sorry ... times change.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Times changes, not really.

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