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TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
What common areas legally constitute posted within the common area of the HOA.
I assume a bulletin board located at the club house would sufice.

What if that bulletin board were on the backside club house wall surrounded by fully locked fenced off area of the swimming pool area which is Controlled by key fobs which all residents do not or may not have been issued / given.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
TN,

I'll let someone from CA respond to what would be considered a good place for posting the notice.

I just wanted to say that knowing about the meeting, regardless of how you found out, makes it difficult to argue that the notice wasn't posted in a good place.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
From Davis-stirling.com: Posting Notices

"The Davis-Stirling Act requires associations give notice of board meetings, including an agenda of the meeting. Posting the notice and agenda on a bulletin board is allowed, provided it is in a prominent location accessible to all members. If the bulletin board is not large enough, associations need to install larger ones or, in the alternative, deliver notice to everyone. (Civ. Code §4920)

In addition, associations must mail a notice to any owner who so requests). See "Notice."

It seems, TN, like the notices/agendas aren't posted in a "prominent" location in your HOA.

Is there no other good place you could suggest to your property mgr. or board?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
TN,

This is the impartant part. This is supposed to be included with the Annual Disclosure Package required to be delivered to every owner 30 prior to the close of the fiscal year. In this case, if this was sent to all owners, the placement you described would be acceptable.

General Notice Location. The location, if any, designated for posting of a general notice, pursuant to paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 4045.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Sorry, Richard, I disagree. The posting spot needs to be "prominent" and "accessible to all members," which are key words here. TN's wording, though, is a little unclear, and I don't even know if their notices really are posted in this obscure spot or if it's hypothetical.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
In my old association, the agenda were posted in the pool area accessible by a fob because the agendas were being taken down on the other three open bulletin board throughout the community. BUT, the Annual Disclosure Package clearly stated where the agendas were posted. IF, you wanted access to the pool, IT WAS YOUR responsibility to obtain a fob.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
We learned many years ago to place the agendas and other HOA notices in our glass-enclosed locked bulletin boards in our mailrooms, which are very convenient to every resident. Pool areas often are not a "prominent place" and many residents never use them.

TN's board of directors also could post the agendas in their newsletter and on their web site if they have them.

We had a Board once that did not want Owners to come to board meetings-required to be open in CA--and posted tiny notices with vague agendas in the gym locker rooms used by very few Owners. They also held their board meetings at 2pm to dampen attendance.

The reason, then, for the statute about accessible "prominent" areas is to try to assure that secretive boards do not keep "open" meetings hidden.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/21/2018 11:16 AM
The reason, then, for the statute about accessible "prominent" areas is to try to assure that secretive boards do not keep "open" meetings hidden.

Would you please posted WHERE in the statue "prominent" is mentioned. What you posted was an attorney's opinion and only that. What I posted is what is required, by Civil Code, to be delivered to each and every owner of where they can find the agendas. IF, the owner find that place unsatisfactory, it can always be a point to be brought up at a Board meeting during their open forum session or the Annual meeting of the Members.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I cited my source above, Richard, and never pretended the wording was from CA Civil Code. It's the opinion of the attorneys at Davis-stirling.com And it captures the spirit of the Open Meeting Act: to make board meetings as "open" as possible for all Owners. That means crafting an agenda and a notice area that's not obscure or that is rarely visited by Owners.

The annual notice you keep referring to is NOT kept by Owners as it's accompanied by a bunch of other annual notices. In our case it's also accompany by our many-page annual budget and a 4-page summary of our reserves study.

In addition, the law requires that Board meetings' agendas must be posted 4 days before regular and special meetings. So the once-a year-notice does NOT meet that criteria.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Kerry,

Richard is stating that if notice was mailed to every owner, that would have been the primary notification. Therefore, the posting on any board, regardless of how accessible (i.e. in the pool area) would be in compliance because notice had already been provided to all owners.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The 4-day notice before an open meeting is required in CA, Tim. Owners do not keep the annual notice that comes buried in a bunch of other items: Summary of ARC Guidelines, FHA & VA status, blah, blah for 40 pages!!

Also, sometimes meeting times must be changed a little to, say an hour later. In addition, our Board probably has about 4 special board meetings a year. These too require 4-day postings in advance of these meetings. If in an obscure place, many Owners would miss them.

But I am aware that some Boards like to discourage attendance in open meeting states that require an open forum when owners may speak, so obscure posting areas, or scheduling meetings areas not in or "near" the HOA, or at times when many folks are at work are sleazy ploys to do just that,
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/21/2018 3:52 PM
I cited my source above, Richard, and never pretended the wording was from CA Civil Code. It's the opinion of the attorneys at Davis-stirling.com And it captures the spirit of the Open Meeting Act: to make board meetings as "open" as possible for all Owners. That means crafting an agenda and a notice area that's not obscure or that is rarely visited by Owners.

The annual notice you keep referring to is NOT kept by Owners as it's accompanied by a bunch of other annual notices. In our case it's also accompany by our many-page annual budget and a 4-page summary of our reserves study.

In addition, the law requires that Board meetings' agendas must be posted 4 days before regular and special meetings. So the once-a year-notice does NOT meet that criteria.

Maybe your GM, Monique could explain the wording that is in included with the annual policy statement. Below is the notice I include for one of my associations. They will be different depending on where notices are posted. Notices of a Board meeting will be included on their monthly statements, a newsletter, on their website, their web portals. They have the opportunity to have the agendas mailed to them, IF, they so choose.

General Notices will be placed on the bulletin board within the common area. Homeowners have a right to receive general notices by individual delivery, and such request must be made in writing as noted above. A copy of the minutes of the meetings may be obtained, for a small fee, by writing to the address noted above also.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The bold statement to, I guess, one of your accounts, Richard, is a minimum.

Some of us are on boards that want notices/agendas of meetings as widely accessible as possible. It's obvious that TN's Board does not wish to make it easy to attend open meetings. I've asked TN if there aren't other public areas where postings could be and TN doesn't reply.

As noted, we also have elevator notices referring folks to the mailrooms; website postings, newsletter reminders. Apparently TN has none of those at their HOA. IMO, their board is sloppy and careless OR they have something to hide. Neither is a good thing.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
So where does the responsibility of the individual kick in. Does you Association do a new owner orientation to explain the CCRs, the Bylaws, Rules, how to get involved on a committee or volunteer to run for the Board?

Being I have to comply with Civil Code, I know that I have given a homeowner every opportunity to be informed. I did that with my last association with over 1000 residents. With all the notifications that were sent in a variety of methods, we would get 7 people to show up at a meeting. There will always be excuses for notices not properly displayed, but homeowners do have to take responsibility at some point in time.
JenniferG11 (Texas)
Posts: 667
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/21/2018 11:16 AM
We learned many years ago to place the agendas and other HOA notices in our glass-enclosed locked bulletin boards in our mailrooms, which are very convenient to every resident. Pool areas often are not a "prominent place" and many residents never use them.


Ours go in the glass enclosed spaces as well. At the mail stations, and also on our website.
TN1 (California)
Posts: 45
Posted:
Glass enclosure mounted to exterior clubhouse would be more accessible to all.
Rather than inside of an fenced swimming pool patio area where some don't have access.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Perhaps you can look into, TN. Find such an enclosure online and submit a quick drawing of your suggested location and a photo of the enclosure to the board for it's next open meeting and suggest they buy & install it.

Doesn't your HOA have a web site and/or newsletter?

Making it as easy as possible for folks to attend open meetings is a very different subject than how many actually show up, Richard.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/23/2018 7:50 AM
Perhaps you can look into, TN. Find such an enclosure online and submit a quick drawing of your suggested location and a photo of the enclosure to the board for it's next open meeting and suggest they buy & install it.

Doesn't your HOA have a web site and/or newsletter?

Making it as easy as possible for folks to attend open meetings is a very different subject than how many actually show up, Richard.

Exactly what does having a bulletin board enclosed and lockable have to do with making it as easy as possible to attend a board meeting. I can post on a website, I can place agenda on four different bulletin, I can email the notice and agenda to all that opt-in, I can send either by mail or email notice where all notices related to association business is posted, we can tell everyone, board meetings are held the third Thursday of each month in Al Capone's rec room.

What the OP failed to state was whether the annual notice and policy statement that is required to be mailed or emailed each year stated where notices would be displayed, and if they were unhappy about such a location did ANYONE speak up and suggest somewhere more convenient.

At my old association, we had the notices posted in the exact same place. Why?, because someone was constantly taking them down from the three unlocked bulletin boards located next to all the cluster mail boxes. Some just don't have all the luxuries of living in a high rise building, but then don't have to pay your high monthly assessments. Just saying.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Looking for something else, I ran into this CA Civil Code: "Civil Code §4045. Providing General Delivery or Notice.

(a) If a provision of this act requires “general delivery” or “general notice,” the document shall be provided by one or more of the following methods:
(1) Any method provided for delivery of an individual notice pursuant to Section 4040.
(2) Inclusion in a billing statement, newsletter, or other document that is delivered by one of the methods provided in this section.

(3) Posting the printed document in a PROMINENT location that is accessible to all members, if the location has been designated for the posting of general notices by the association in the annual policy statement, prepared pursuant to Section 5310.

I don't know why all residents don't have access to your pool area, TN, but what matters is that it's not a prominent-enough place, and it's the same here--it's out of the way and only used, I'd say, by 15% of our residents at most.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 06/23/2018 12:54 PM
Looking for something else, I ran into this CA Civil Code: "Civil Code §4045. Providing General Delivery or Notice.

(a) If a provision of this act requires “general delivery” or “general notice,” the document shall be provided by one or more of the following methods:
(1) Any method provided for delivery of an individual notice pursuant to Section 4040.
(2) Inclusion in a billing statement, newsletter, or other document that is delivered by one of the methods provided in this section.

(3) Posting the printed document in a PROMINENT location that is accessible to all members, if the location has been designated for the posting of general notices by the association in the annual policy statement, prepared pursuant to Section 5310.

I don't know why all residents don't have access to your pool area, TN, but what matters is that it's not a prominent-enough place, and it's the same here--it's out of the way and only used, I'd say, by 15% of our residents at most.


You should really post ALL the section, not just what you think is relevant!
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Is the statute I posted somehow misleading, Richard?? Did I miss something "relevant?" If so, what is it?

I did advise TN to speak up and even to offer an alternative site or sites in writing (best) or at the next open board meeting's Open Forum. Not all Owners are aware that they can make these suggestions to their boards, or to their boards via managers.

TN may also wish to start a newsletter with the board's blessing or even a website. Unless TN's exaggerating, though, it domes' sound like their Board communicates with residents very well. That may be its strategy--keeping folks in the dark and ignorant is a well-known method for trying to dominate & control them.

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