💬 Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
I'm just spitballing some ideas. Is it permissible to enact Rules & Regulations that are different for lessees/tenants/renters than they are for homeowners? For instance, our CC&Rs say up to 4 cats and dogs can be kept by a homeowner. Can we enact a Rule that limits a tenant/renter to 1 pet? What about vehicles? Can we allow homeowners to have motorcycles but prohibit tenants (and their guests, visitors and invitees) from brining them into the subdivision? Our other governing documents authorize the board to enact rules and regulations regarding leasing.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 05/18/2018 1:16 PM
I'm just spitballing some ideas. Is it permissible to enact Rules & Regulations that are different for lessees/tenants/renters than they are for homeowners? For instance, our CC&Rs say up to 4 cats and dogs can be kept by a homeowner. Can we enact a Rule that limits a tenant/renter to 1 pet? What about vehicles? Can we allow homeowners to have motorcycles but prohibit tenants (and their guests, visitors and invitees) from brining them into the subdivision? Our other governing documents authorize the board to enact rules and regulations regarding leasing.

Sure, not a problem, you will just have to re-do your CCRs.
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
My off the cuff guess is that board created rules can not be used to place restrictions on renters that are not in the CCRs. I would certainly want a legal opinion before attempting to do it.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
The lease agreement is NOT with the HOA. It is with the owner. It's up to the owner to restrict or apply restrictions. They also should include tenant's adhere to HOA rules. However, that most likely is not in most rental agreements if they are off the shelf types. Which most lease agreements are.

Renters aren't the problem. The problem is the owners. The real damage a renter has on a HOA? It isn't the appearance of the home as even owners can have an ugly homes. It's the number of them. That factors in on the PUD form that assesses the HOA. A high rental number can mean higher interest rates for those refinancing or less loan packages available.

The HOA is a third party to lease agreements. Enforcement on renters is NOT the responsibility of the HOA. It is the owner's. Unless the HOA owns that property and has a signed lease with a tenant, it's NOT part of the HOA's responsibility.

Former HOA President
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/18/2018 4:04 PM
The lease agreement is NOT with the HOA. It is with the owner. It's up to the owner to restrict or apply restrictions. They also should include tenant's adhere to HOA rules. However, that most likely is not in most rental agreements if they are off the shelf types. Which most lease agreements are.

Renters aren't the problem. The problem is the owners. The real damage a renter has on a HOA? It isn't the appearance of the home as even owners can have an ugly homes. It's the number of them. That factors in on the PUD form that assesses the HOA. A high rental number can mean higher interest rates for those refinancing or less loan packages available.

The HOA is a third party to lease agreements. Enforcement on renters is NOT the responsibility of the HOA. It is the owner's. Unless the HOA owns that property and has a signed lease with a tenant, it's NOT part of the HOA's responsibility.

HOA's can and do control lease agreements for rentals within their community. It is how they have had their governing documents crafted, which mean they can have social security numbers on file.

Owners do not pay higher interest because of the number of investment units within a complex. Owners will pay higher interest rates because the property is an investment.

These are facts and you can't do anything about it.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasK1 on 05/18/2018 3:20 PM
My off the cuff guess is that board created rules can not be used to place restrictions on renters that are not in the CCRs. I would certainly want a legal opinion before attempting to do it.

Well we're not going to do anything unlawful, that's for sure. Still, I don't think renters or motorcycle owners are a protected class anywhere that I've seen.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Fact #1 The HOA does NOT fall under any business or other source that needs or requires a Social Security number. The law does say the HOA has the requirement to provide a social security number. I would NEVER EVER give my social security # to my HOA. If they asked, I'd tell them to stuff it your full of crap.

The HOA can put restrictions on the owners NOT renters. It's up to the owner's to apply those restrictions. If they don't, then they are held for violating the restrictions.

My Renter worked on motorcycle in my living room. He also moved a baby Emu into my backyard. Did NOT pay rent for 5 months. The HOA could do nothing about it. It was my responsibility. Plus Tenant's have rights a landlord can't violate. Since I did not have it in my rental agreement the tenant can't have an Emu (or animal not allowed in the CC&R's) I could not evict based on that. The tenant has the right to fight that in court. Which extends the eviction process.

So I don't believe the HOA should be involved in any restrictions other than against the owners/members. Everything else is the owner's responsibility.

Former HOA President
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 05/18/2018 6:24 PM
Posted By DouglasK1 on 05/18/2018 3:20 PM
My off the cuff guess is that board created rules can not be used to place restrictions on renters that are not in the CCRs. I would certainly want a legal opinion before attempting to do it.

Well we're not going to do anything unlawful, that's for sure. Still, I don't think renters or motorcycle owners are a protected class anywhere that I've seen.

I agree that renters are probably not a protected class and probably would not have any standing as non-members to challenge any rules that are specific to them. The owners however could challenge the rules, potentially based on the fact that the additional restrictions could depress they rent they could charge or limit who they could rent to (motorcycle owners, for example).

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasK1 on 05/18/2018 6:57 PM
I agree that renters are probably not a protected class and probably would not have any standing as non-members to challenge any rules that are specific to them. The owners however could challenge the rules, potentially based on the fact that the additional restrictions could depress they rent they could charge or limit who they could rent to (motorcycle owners, for example).

Definitely a possibility. The two owners that would be affected by such a change here are both in their mid-90s and in assisted living facilities so I doubt, in any practical sense, they'd be challenging anything. That could change, of course.

I've been looking dozens of HOA CC&Rs here in my county alone and I have to say some of them are really wacky. More than a few restrict rentals and require language in a lease that gives the HOA the authority to evict an owner's tenants. There's no way we'd ever even consider that. It sounds like a recipe for disaster. Some newer CC&Rs for single-family subdivisions with fee simple ownership still prohibit all rooftop satellite dishes, or at least they claim to have that power. Some of my admittedly way-out-of-the-box thinking is positively tame compared to things I've actually seen in some of these other CC&Rs.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 05/18/2018 6:40 PM
Fact #1 The HOA does NOT fall under any business or other source that needs or requires a Social Security number. The law does say the HOA has the requirement to provide a social security number. I would NEVER EVER give my social security # to my HOA. If they asked, I'd tell them to stuff it your full of crap.

The HOA can put restrictions on the owners NOT renters. It's up to the owner's to apply those restrictions. If they don't, then they are held for violating the restrictions.

My Renter worked on motorcycle in my living room. He also moved a baby Emu into my backyard. Did NOT pay rent for 5 months. The HOA could do nothing about it. It was my responsibility. Plus Tenant's have rights a landlord can't violate. Since I did not have it in my rental agreement the tenant can't have an Emu (or animal not allowed in the CC&R's) I could not evict based on that. The tenant has the right to fight that in court. Which extends the eviction process.

So I don't believe the HOA should be involved in any restrictions other than against the owners/members. Everything else is the owner's responsibility.

I had an instance in my former HOA that went after a renter. It cost the Association $250K and the renter won and lost. And renters can become Board members.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Whether a HOA can impose substantively different rules on tenants vis-a-vis owners is an interesting topic. HUD has come out with guidance about ex-convicts, asserting that ex-convicts tend to be people of color. The purpose of the Fair Housing Act was to help those who historically had been screwed over by housing practices, and in particular, African American households. So HUD has counseled not discriminating against ex-convicts, even though ex-convicts are not technically a protected class. Tenants are similarly more likely to be African American vis-a-vis owners. Hence I think HUD may similar about discriminating against tenants vis-a-vis owners: Don't do it. I would rather not have a HOA community whose residency is around 50% or more tenants. But there is little I can do about it other than make sure the HOA enforces nuisance covenants in particular.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Some of my concerns are coming to a head in the next week or two. Our governing documents do not grant the association or the BoD the authority to approve or disapprove leases. We just found out that the president, on her own witout consulting the board, has spent almost $1,000 getting our new HOA attorney to write a letter to the tenant-in-question's landlord demanding that he terminate the tenants' lease and occupancy. She has decreed this matter to be hush-hush and ordered the other board members not to discuss the situation with anyone. This will not end well for somebody and I hope it's not the association when it ends up on the receiving end of a lawsuit for tortious interference with a contract to which the HOA is not a party.

There are 2 rookie directors who want to call for a special board meeting. The president has told them they can't do that. The Bylaws say, "Special Meetings of the Board of Directors may be called by the President or by members of the Board for any time and place...". It would be better if it said, "any two members", but I think "members of the Board" is enough to allow any two members to call one.

There's an email storm going on as I type this. I came here for a break
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Since the president got the HOA attorney to write this letter to the tune of $1000 without board authorization, the first thing you need to do is demand she reimburse that money. If she refuses, remove her as president. Note that's not the same as putting her off the board - only homeowners can do that by voting her out or perhaps during a special meeting where recalling her would be the subject.

I live in a community where wacky tenants and the owners who rent to them has been a problem off and on for years, and have found you really need to concentrate on OWNERS. If you drive around a community or visit different floors in a high rise condo, I don't think you should be able to tell the difference between someone who rents vs. an owner occupant because EVERYONE should be complying by the same rules. It's bad enough when you have BS homeowners, but homeowners who allow bad tenants to come in and create chaos and disorder when they site back and collect rent checks is obscene in my opinion.

Instead, focus on the behavior and hammer the owner-landlords when people don't act right (after all all homeowners are ultimately responsible for the behavior of their household and visitors). For example, it matters not if a tenant has 1 pets vs. a homeowner' 4 - both cause problems if they let the animals run wild all over the place making noise, crapping everywhere and perhaps biting someone. The rules you already have to control that stuff should be adequate - all dogs on leashes and under the owner's control when they're out, pick up after your pet or be charged for cleaning and repairs to lawns, if necessary.

If you want a few specifics for owner/landlords, I think it would be OK to require they give tenants a copy of community rules and emphasize homeowners will ultimately be held responsible for violations. I also like requiring owners to notify the property manager of new tenants and their cars - it helps keep track of who's living in the house/townhouse/condo. Some communities have rules giving the association the right to go after tenants directly for rule violations up to and including eviction, but I've always feared that could create more problems and expense than what it's worth. Better to go after the homeowner for creating/harboring a nuisance via the behavior of the tenants - if he/she won't fix it, smack the pocketbook.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

🎯 You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • ✓ Ask follow-up questions
  • ✓ Share your experience
  • ✓ Get expert advice
  • ✓ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚡ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here