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FlowerP (Virginia)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Hello,

Can a general member (non board member) make a motion from the floor at an annual meeting that is not on the agenda. For example, can a homeowner motion to have a candidate removed from the voting ballot due to the fact that the candidate has filed a lawsuit against the Association? who seconds it? Anyone at the meeting?

If so, Is that motion acted only by board members? Only the board votes?

Or

Can the members vote on the motion especially if they do not wish to have that potential board member making financial decisions related to his/her own lawsuit (which is what would happen if elected)??. There are potentially enough concerned voter, constituting more than 10% for Quorum, that would be present at the annual meeting to have this candidate removed from the ballot for his/her conflict of interest if a homeowner is allowed to make that motion and the membership able to vote.

I cannot find anything in our by-laws on this or in the POA ACT. What is the process essentially?

Appreciate any feedback. Thanks
JeffS28 (Tennessee)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Do you think the potential candidate is not suitable for running?

FlowerP (Virginia)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Yes, the candidate is not suitable with a law suit against the board he wants to operate on.
JeffS28 (Tennessee)
Posts: 29
Posted:
It depends how many spots are up for election?
JeffS28 (Tennessee)
Posts: 29
Posted:
One way could be campaigning, did you campaign and tell other homeowners that this potential candidate is risky for your HOA?
FlowerP (Virginia)
Posts: 5
Posted:
We have two spots up for election. The candidate also requested on the agenda a vote to the membership to expand from 3 to 5 before elections, so potentially 4 spots depending on that vote.
JeffS28 (Tennessee)
Posts: 29
Posted:
One way maybe proxies, does your HOA allow proxies, did you collect any?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Flower,

That sort of motion wouldn't be appropriate.
If it was made, the membership wouldn't vote on it as any vote before the members require proper notice to allow everyone to be aware of the vote.

Additionally, even though I agree it's a huge conflict of interest, if there is nothing in the governing documents preventing the individual from running, they could still run.

I do understand your concern. My suggestion would be two fold:

1) solicit and collect proxies from your neighbors allowing you to vote on their behalf. This way, you will control more of the votes. See VA § 13.1-847 of the nonstock corporation act to learn more about proxies.

2) At the annual meeting, prior to the vote, ask the following question: I was wondering if the candidates would tell the membership if they currently have any legal actions or pending legal actions with the Association? This way, at least the membership can make an informed vote.
JeffS28 (Tennessee)
Posts: 29
Posted:
But Tim wouldn’t it be more of a conflict for the person asking this question as that person, probably the meeting officer, woudnt want this person to be on the board?

I’m assuming this is kind of like GuyM’s situation, the OP is probably a board member who doesn’t want the potential candidate on the board, same thing happened in GuyM’s situation, where they attempted to keep him off the board. More details on who caused the lawsuit, the current board or is the lawsuit frivolous.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
First, I agree with TimB4's response. Legal notice is essential here, so all members have a chance to decide whether to attend or send a proxy.

Second, even if proper notice were given, the proposal to remove the person from the ballot is not a legal one. Neither Members, nor the Board, nor the HOA are all-powerful.

Third, if an item is on the agenda for a vote by the members, and assuming what is proposed is within the scope of the members to vote on, then the members vote, not the board.

Fourth, the process is to follow the governing documents. I would bet our HOA's governing documents give minimal qualifications for being on the board. I would bet your HOA's governing documents do not disqualify a member from running for the board, and serving on the board, who has filed suit, or threatened to file suit, against the HOA.

The good news for you and your circle is that if your HOA attorney is at all competent, he or she will instruct the board not to discuss the lawsuit with the director who filed suit or is threatening suit. Also the director who filed suit or is threatening suit will be restricted from viewing certain records.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffS28 on 05/10/2018 7:32 PM
But Tim wouldn’t it be more of a conflict for the person asking this question as that person, probably the meeting officer, woudnt want this person to be on the board?

Actual legal actions are public record. Hence, from my perspective, there is no conflict.
In my opinion, the Association should have disclosed to it's membership that they are involved with any legal action.

Additionally, if the question is asked of everyone, I don't see it as an issue.

My first recommendation of collecting proxies addresses the main concern of not wanting the individual on the Board.

ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140
Posted:
If they meet whatever (if any) qualifications/requirements are set forth in your bylaws to run for the board and have done nothing that would by statute exclude them, I don't believe the members can block anyone from running for a seat on the board. If there were enough members who would vote to remove this person from the ballot, what chance do you think they have of getting elected?

I suspect its fairly common for HOA members having disputes with the HOA to run for the board as it's the easiest way to end the dispute. That's pretty much how I ended up on my HOA's board.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Your governing documents may say something different but, generally, members can make motions at an annual membership meeting. However, this particular motion would not be proper because it would circumvent the election process. Even if 100% of the membership thought suing the HOA was a valid reason to bar someone from running, they would have to change the bylaws (and possibly the CC&Rs if they address elections), they could not just vote to remove him from the ballot. It would also be illegal in some states where the state code dictates who may be on an HOA board.

Removing someone from the ballot at the annual meeting would also disenfranchise all those who voted for this person by absentee ballot.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
May I ask why? Not all boards act properly and sometimes a homeowner's only recourse to protect their rights (and the rights of other members) is to sue.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FlowerP on 05/10/2018 6:27 PM
Yes, the candidate is not suitable with a law suit against the board he wants to operate on.

Sorry, my last post was in response to this.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
I say if the subject/motion is not on the published agenda, it cannot be introduced. Look at it this way: Doing such would be "hiding" things to be discussed from the membership.
ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 05/12/2018 5:39 PM
I say if the subject/motion is not on the published agenda, it cannot be introduced. Look at it this way: Doing such would be "hiding" things to be discussed from the membership.

I don't know about that. What if a member wants something on the agenda (and a vote by the members at the annual meeting) that the board doesn't agree with? All they have to do is refuse to put it on the agenda, and by your logic, it can't be introduced by a member at the members meeting.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Art,

The membership can bring up anything they want.

However, due to notice requirements, the only thing that can be voted on are those items that were previously noticed to all and adjourn to a later time to meet quorum.

Otherwise, since notice requirements are within State statutes and the governing documents, a member who chose not to attend but would have had they known an issue was going to be voted on has cause for legal action.

Granted, things vary by State. In Virginia, where the OP and I are living, advance notice must be given to members for anything being voted on at the general membership meeting.

To address your concern, if the Board refuses to place the item on the ballot, then the member needs to comply with their governing documents and petition for a special meeting of the general membership to vote on that item.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Assuming an item is within the scope of the governing documents, I wonder if a member would be in his legal rights to demand the item be added to the annual meeting's agenda. It is less expensive to do business at the annual meeting than it is to, say, petition for an additional Special Meeting. I do not think I have seen this topic here in the past. (Maybe because any major discussion items more typically result in the member wanting something simply running for the board?)
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
All I know is that even when I was fighting with those on the board (10 years ago and before I was a board member), they placed things on the agenda I requested.

Until one asks for something to be on the agenda (allowing for proper notice to the membership), one doesn't know the answer. Art was bringing up a "what if" question.
JeffS28 (Tennessee)
Posts: 29
Posted:
Looking at the other post by the OP about referendum’s, that the person who doesn’t want a person on the ballot also appears to not want to have referendum’s as requested by a member. It’s probably the same person requesting the referendum’s. I believe board members should not have all control in member meetings, if a member wants referendum’s on the agenda, the committee setting up the annual meeting should put it on the agenda, controversial or not.

This becomes an issue when lack of volunteers lets the board also control the annual meeting, especially if that board is trying to stay away from topics which conflict with their own interests.

As long as the referendum’s don’t violate bylaws and the CC&R’s, I don’t see anything that cannot be requested for a majority vote. It is very difficult for members to call a special meeting in times of trouble in the community, people are reluctant to sign things they have little knowledge of and even more reluctant when neighbors do know about such things as lawsuits. The annual meeting is a good opportunity to address issues that members have.

And if the boards are controlling the annual meeting then how is one suppose to bring change, it may take years for terms to expire and like Melissa always says change leadership but that’s almost impossible during times when people know about issues with the HOA.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ArtL1 on 05/13/2018 6:36 AM
I don't know about that. What if a member wants something on the agenda (and a vote by the members at the annual meeting) that the board doesn't agree with? All they have to do is refuse to put it on the agenda, and by your logic, it can't be introduced by a member at the members meeting.

Unfortunately, John and Tim are right. Tim's remedy, calling a special members meeting, is about the only thing you can do. Or replace the board who refused to include the item on the annual meeting agenda and have the new board call a special members meeting. Everything the members will be asked to vote on must be on the agenda.

Also, in Florida, all members are eligible to serve on the board of directors unless they are recent convicted felons (see FS 720 for details). Members who are delinquent on any monetary obligations on the last day of board nominations may not APPEAR on the ballot but they ARE eligible to serve on the board (write-in ballot or may be appointed by the other directors to fill a vacancy). In Florida the existence or participation in a lawsuit against the association does is not a disqualifying factor no matter what your governing documents might say.

Doesn't apply to Virginia, of course. Be careful who you elect. That is applicable everywhere.
ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 05/13/2018 9:31 PM
Posted By ArtL1 on 05/13/2018 6:36 AM
I don't know about that. What if a member wants something on the agenda (and a vote by the members at the annual meeting) that the board doesn't agree with? All they have to do is refuse to put it on the agenda, and by your logic, it can't be introduced by a member at the members meeting.

Unfortunately, John and Tim are right. Tim's remedy, calling a special members meeting, is about the only thing you can do. Or replace the board who refused to include the item on the annual meeting agenda and have the new board call a special members meeting. Everything the members will be asked to vote on must be on the agenda.

Also, in Florida, all members are eligible to serve on the board of directors unless they are recent convicted felons (see FS 720 for details). Members who are delinquent on any monetary obligations on the last day of board nominations may not APPEAR on the ballot but they ARE eligible to serve on the board (write-in ballot or may be appointed by the other directors to fill a vacancy). In Florida the existence or participation in a lawsuit against the association does is not a disqualifying factor no matter what your governing documents might say.

Doesn't apply to Virginia, of course. Be careful who you elect. That is applicable everywhere.

Are you sure?

720.306(4)
CONTENT OF NOTICE.—Unless law or the governing documents require otherwise, notice of an annual meeting need not include a description of the purpose or purposes for which the meeting is called. Notice of a special meeting must include a description of the purpose or purposes for which the meeting is called.

Additionally, the text of 720.309 suggests that the members can make arbitrary motions not on the agenda.

"Any contract entered into by the board may be canceled by a majority of the voting interests present at the next regular or special meeting of the association, whichever occurs first. Any member may make a motion to cancel such contract, but if no motion is made or if such motion fails to obtain the required vote, the contract shall be deemed ratified for the term expressed therein."
ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140
Posted:
Of course, I'm looking at FL law, and the OP is Virginia...so all sorts of differences could exist in the statutes.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ArtL1 on 05/14/2018 1:22 PM
Are you sure?

No, now I'm not A special meeting clearly must state the purposes for it, but it doesn't appear the annual meeting needs an agenda at all. As for members making motions according to FS 720.309 I think that statutory power to make a motion to cancel a contract entered into by the board is very specific and probably doesn't apply to motions regarding anything else other than cancelling a contract.

But I agree with you that control of the Annual Meeting agenda when the statute says no agenda is needed does look problematic. What do the governing documents say, I wonder.
ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GenoS on 05/14/2018 1:49 PM
Posted By ArtL1 on 05/14/2018 1:22 PM
Are you sure?

No, now I'm not A special meeting clearly must state the purposes for it, but it doesn't appear the annual meeting needs an agenda at all. As for members making motions according to FS 720.309 I think that statutory power to make a motion to cancel a contract entered into by the board is very specific and probably doesn't apply to motions regarding anything else other than cancelling a contract.

But I agree with you that control of the Annual Meeting agenda when the statute says no agenda is needed does look problematic. What do the governing documents say, I wonder.

Ours "say" they were written by a couple of chimpanzees randomly banging away on a keyboard.

Actually, ours mirror the statute, in that they only say notice of the annual meeting must be given so many days in advance, and that notice and the purpose of a special meeting must be given so many days in advance. Still nothing about an actual agenda though...just "purpose".
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By ArtL1 on 05/14/2018 5:12 PM
Ours "say" they were written by a couple of chimpanzees randomly banging away on a keyboard.

Actually, ours mirror the statute, in that they only say notice of the annual meeting must be given so many days in advance, and that notice and the purpose of a special meeting must be given so many days in advance. Still nothing about an actual agenda though...just "purpose".

Our bylaws include a template for the order of business at the annual meeting followed by: "This order of business may be modified or changed at any meeting at the discretion of the President."

There's no provision in the agenda template about "agenda approval" such as exists her for regular board meetings. I think if someone is preparing an agenda for the annual meeting here it's probably the president even though the bylaws are silent on the issue. That same group of chimpanzees wrote both of our bylaws, I'm afraid.

We've got our own crisis-of-the-month brewing here regarding the agenda for the upcoming regular board meeting. The meeting to set the agenda for the regular board meeting is tomorrow night. Two board members want a specific item to be on the agenda but we're pretty sure the president will attempt to prevent it from going on. Will know for sure tomorrow night.

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