Association Documents

Started by RonaldW • 20 replies • 1434 views

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RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Well, I'm now President.

I just received the records and documents of the association - eighteen years worth, mostly in boxes. I was even presented with a stack of bricks (yes bricks) that were submitted with an application to build a house.

I am attempting to sort and file them and remove duplicates. It looks like past board presidents and ACC members just put everything that came to them in a folder or box.

Our documents require the board to "keep records".

Do I really need to keep copies of landscaping or other maintenance contracts for all eighteen years? How about bids that were the "loosing bids"?

Copies of insurance policies for eighteen years? Meeting attendance and voting records?

I do plan on keeping copies of legal actions, ACC approvals and denials, violation records, meeting minutes, and newsletters.

What else should I keep, what can be discarded?

Ron
SC

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

Wow, that'll keep you busy. No time for flower patrol.

Times like this must make you reconsider hiring a management company?

JosephC2 (Florida)
Posts: 23

Posted:

You need an admin asst Ronald, that's what they do.

You probably need to keep 5-7 years of records. Thats why you have an attorney and an accountant; to answer those questions.

JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253

Posted:

CAI had a document about the duties of the Association secretary. I am pretty sure in that document there was a table of how long you must keep the various things -- it varies. I can remember sitting in my front foyer sorting out boxes with our treasurer. We tossed some and put sticky notes on when other things were to be tossed. Unfortunately that great system no doubt has died. I will try to find that sheet. Our treasurer is more organized than me and I believe she has a copy of it.

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DJ1 on 08/11/2007 12:17 PM
Wow, that'll keep you busy. No time for flower patrol.

Times like this must make you reconsider hiring a management company?

Well, a management company would be great but it's just not in our budget at this time or in the near future. I did contact one for a quote and they said they weren't taking any new clients at this time.

Besides, I've seen more compaints about MCs on this forum than praise.

Ron
SC

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JosephC2 on 08/11/2007 2:25 PM
You need an admin asst Ronald, that's what they do.

You probably need to keep 5-7 years of records. Thats why you have an attorney and an accountant; to answer those questions.

Well, I've got my wife for an assistant.

You're right, I could ask the attorney, but of course we pay by the hour. And it's not cheap.

Ron
SC

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudithC on 08/11/2007 4:00 PM
CAI had a document about the duties of the Association secretary. I am pretty sure in that document there was a table of how long you must keep the various things -- it varies. I can remember sitting in my front foyer sorting out boxes with our treasurer. We tossed some and put sticky notes on when other things were to be tossed. Unfortunately that great system no doubt has died. I will try to find that sheet. Our treasurer is more organized than me and I believe she has a copy of it.

Thanks. If you find it, please post it if you can or a link to one that's on-line.

Ron
SC

JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253

Posted:

I haven't found the one I remember, but did send off a note to the person that helped me with it.

I googled the subject and there were lots of hits. It turns out that "everyone should have a record retention policy". I am attaching one that apparently appeared in Common Ground. Although there are a little too many blanks in the chart at the end for my taste, the verbiage describes things better, and it turns out that there are lots of sites talking about how long to keep financial records.

I hope this helps and if I find the one I am thinking of (which didn't have any worries about different states, etc.)I will post it.

📎 Attachments (1):

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📄1812112581071.pdf(59 KB)

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Are you ready for this news? KEEP ALL THE RECORDS!!!! Whatever you do, do NOT discard records. I had the SAME thing happen to me. Our records were kept by various treasurers over the years. Our Bookkeeper even had a few records. ALL of which landed on my lap. I stored them in the cluhouse closet with a lock and key.

I don't know how many homes you have, but you may want to sort some records to lot numbers. Those are items related to the house on that lot. For example that brick you have can go into the box for that lot. Things related to the construction of that lot may be included per each lot. I kept past correspondence and complaints from each lot as well.

Contracts are a DEFINITE keep item. We had a lawncare contract problem a few times. It was those records that "saved" us. I had a to refer to the original contract when creating a new one. I also had to look up the monthly start and end times of previous lawncare. So it's important to keep prior contracts with ALL vendors. Just in case you want to see what the setup was before and why it did or didn't work out.

Do you have a scanner? I would invest in one and see if you can scan certain documents into the computer. You can burn a CD with it later to keep the older records on. Just in case the older records get destroyed there is a an electronic one available. You can do this yourself or hire someone to scan the documents in. A scanner isn't much money and maybe the HOA can pay for it.

I would definetely see where best to store the records and materials used to store them. You may want to make sure you use some "Acid-free" materials for some records. Keeping the boxes away from moisture or other dangers is a good idea. I have some now in a plastic bin in my closet. Storing in the attic may NOT be a good idea. The moisture changes in the air can really do a toll on the documents. Keeping at our clubhouse was my best option. You may have other areas on the HOA property to keep them as well. Or rent a storage container.

Former HOA President

BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RonaldW on 08/11/2007 11:46 AM
Well, I'm now President.

I just received the records and documents of the association - eighteen years worth, mostly in boxes. I was even presented with a stack of bricks (yes bricks) that were submitted with an application to build a house.

I am attempting to sort and file them and remove duplicates. It looks like past board presidents and ACC members just put everything that came to them in a folder or box.

Our documents require the board to "keep records".

Do I really need to keep copies of landscaping or other maintenance contracts for all eighteen years? How about bids that were the "loosing bids"?

Copies of insurance policies for eighteen years? Meeting attendance and voting records?

I do plan on keeping copies of legal actions, ACC approvals and denials, violation records, meeting minutes, and newsletters.

What else should I keep, what can be discarded?

Ron:

I would keep all the records. One option you could have is to either scan the documents and store on a CD and discard the paper copies or take digital pictures of the documents and get rid of the paper. I am guessing you have a ton of paper, I think it is a good idea to keep but I think electronics can help with bulk and space.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Ronald, congrats on serving as President. I can not find my list of number of years to keep each type of document. I believe you may be able to find a list by clicking onto Community Associations Network at the left. Or at the CAI website. Following is a brief summary; your HOA may want to exstablish their own guidelines.

3 years - all documents except some day-to-day correspondence which will never be needed beyond 1 year.

7 years - tax records and supporting documents plus other documents deemed to be useful or required in the future. I think you know what to do with any contractor bid which is 7 years old and obsolete insurance policies

Also, I would question keeping finalized legal actions, ACC approvals and denials, and violation records.

perpetuity - Declaration and all amendments; Aricles of Incorporation and all amendments; By-laws and all amendments; Rules and Reguations and all amendments; and minutes of all meetings.

If in doubt on certain documents, keep them for now. For example for condos and townhomes do you need maintanence records? Is it important to know the sequence of replacing roofs on 20 townhome buildings which were re-roofed 20-25 years ago?

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

I am finding multiple copies of many documents, I will be discarding the duplicates. ACC approvals and denials are in a book sorted by street and address (I had my wife do that) just in case there's a question although I know we can't make someone remove a porch that they constructed without approval several years ago. At least these records provide a "sense of the ACC" for new ACC members.

Violation records help to determine a pattern and letters can state "you were notified on XXX date about this same viloation.

I'm looking at a ten year old letter where the Association fired a landscape contractor for non-performance and equally old copies of proposals that were not accepted. Also, old membership meeting attendance records and all the ballots from these meetings. Copies of letters for payment of overdue assessments. All in piles!

Ron
SC

DJ1 (Ontario)
Posts: 798

Posted:

How far back do you envision CCR enforcement can go Ron?

Most CCR's say that just because the CCR's haven't been enforced doesn't mean the HOA gives up the right to do so later.

Let's say you get rid of some records. I'm a homeowner in your association that did some sort of improvement that a new or future board takes issue with and want removed.

I say, too bad I got approval for the improvement when it was done. You say show me. I say no, you show me I didn't get approval. Isn't the onus is on the Board to prove I didn't get approval...but oh oh, too bad you got rid of the records for the time period in which I claim the approval occurred.

JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253

Posted:

I think obviously approval of ARC is one of those things that you keep forever. It appeared to me that was what Ronald was saying he was doing. However, there is a lot of stuff that you just don't need. Change of address notifications for people who have long left the association, notification of assessments overdue which have long been taken care of -- etc. etc. Now, I keep assessment letters and stuff in electronic form so have all that for years, however I would have no compunction throwing them away for 15 years ago. Actually on the ballots of past elections I would keep them fairly long (say 7 years) I guess, but then I am a nervous Nellie. If you don't weed all this stuff out you either end up warehousing it, which costs money and makes it non-accessible on a day to day basis or having it distributed amongst various homes which makes it hard to track. Even if you have an office for your HOA, there is limited space. More power to Ron for taking this on!

JosephC2 (Florida)
Posts: 23

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RonaldW on 08/12/2007 6:33 AM

Well, I've got my wife for an assistant.

You're right, I could ask the attorney, but of course we pay by the hour. And it's not cheap.

you need to put an attorney on retainer, and an accountant also. You are going to need a lot of legal questions answered. This is NOT the place. People here live in different states and are in most cases only giving their opinions.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

If you don't need a lawyer, don't go get one because of "fear". A HOA does NOT need an attorney 24/7 at all times to handle every issue that may or may not come down the line. It's too expensive for most of us "Small HOA's". Plus having an attorney can just keep that endless cycle going that most HOA's experience. (Owner's feel they can sue because the HOA has an attorney, so the HOA must have money to protect, so they sue the HOA not realizing the HOA is actually protecting the entire group of homeowners themselves included by hiring the attorney to protect agains individual lawsuits - the endless cycle)

I don't see how needing a lawyer and keeping records are related anyways. I can see the use of an accounting firm. Our small HOA did use a bookkeeping service and we paid about $300 a month to use them. They weren't a management company. They just managed our bills, kept records, and forwarded phone calls to us board members. So I can see how that would help in your situation.

Just keep in mind record keeping supplies, storage costs, scanning records, or hiring someone to manage the records, ALL costs the HOA money. Thus it has to be approved by the board to allow you the president to get reimbursed for your out-of-pocket costs for organizing the records. If you all decide to hire a bookkeeper, then that will be another cost that has to figured into the dues. You might have to have a special assessment, a dues hike, or call for a special dues increase to cover the additional costs that may incur.

Remember: It is NOT your money in the HOA. It is EVERYBODIES MONEY in the HOA. You have just been elected to manage it and keep up with everything. So remember to always treat your budget as if it were a "Potluck" dinner your organizing.

Good luck!

Former HOA President

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JosephC2 on 08/12/2007 10:56 AM

Posted By RonaldW on 08/12/2007 6:33 AM

Well, I've got my wife for an assistant.

You're right, I could ask the attorney, but of course we pay by the hour. And it's not cheap.

We do have an attorney on retainer, but we pay for services at an hourly rate. Keeping all this "junk" would be less expensive than consulting her on this but I'm just trying to get some "good sense" ideas.

As I posted, I'm keeping ACC aprovals and denials and violation letters (and resposes). I'm keeping single copies of meeting minutes and financial reports and anything to or from an attorney or CPA. If I'm not sure, I'll keep it.

Ron
SC

RonaldW (South Carolina)
Posts: 901

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DJ1 on 08/12/2007 10:03 AM
How far back do you envision CCR enforcement can go Ron?

Most CCR's say that just because the CCR's haven't been enforced doesn't mean the HOA gives up the right to do so later.

Let's say you get rid of some records. I'm a homeowner in your association that did some sort of improvement that a new or future board takes issue with and want removed.

I say, too bad I got approval for the improvement when it was done. You say show me. I say no, you show me I didn't get approval. Isn't the onus is on the Board to prove I didn't get approval...but oh oh, too bad you got rid of the records for the time period in which I claim the approval occurred.

Our documents state something to the effect that if we don't notify the owner of the violation or bring legal action within 60 days, we loose the right to do so.

Look at the other side. A homeowner makes an unapproved modification (deck or porch) and gets away with it. Later, he sells the home and after a couple more years the ACC tells the new owner he must remove his deck or porch. How would that go over?

I had to explain this one to a homeowner recently. Our documents require AC units to be screened. Several are not. The reason is that early on in the development of the neighborhood, the original developer went bankrupt and a bank took over the unsold lots. The bank allowed homes to be built but did not enforce all the covenants. After the owners took over the HOA, enforcement was stepped up but we cannot reasonably require a homeowner to screen an AC unit after fifteen years. Many are not even the original owners.

Ron
SC

JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253

Posted:

" you need to put an attorney on retainer "

This all depends on the size of your association, and, perhaps how willing you are to learn. For many, putting an attorney on retainer is a waste of money. Board members should feel free to get the answers to their questions from the attorney and if the fees involved show it is a good business decision, then put the attorney on retainer.

RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JudithC on 08/12/2007 1:41 PM
" you need to put an attorney on retainer "
This all depends on the size of your association, and, perhaps how willing you are to learn. For many, putting an attorney on retainer is a waste of money. Board members should feel free to get the answers to their questions from the attorney and if the fees involved show it is a good business decision, then put the attorney on retainer.

I agree Judith.
Also, concerning ACC approvals and violations to restrictions, in Colorado, after being aware of a problem for more than a year and doing nothing it is too late for that violation. However, paraphrasing most CC&Rs, it does not negate enforcement of future violations of the same kind.

JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253

Posted:

"Also, concerning ACC approvals and violations to restrictions, in Colorado, after being aware of a problem for more than a year and doing nothing it is too late for that violation."

I think I am going to have to start a book that is a wish list of new laws for Virginia. That one would help the board so much (in that it would get them off the hook and allow them to be fair), and also is kind to homeowners. I love it! It seems like every state has a few good things they have thought of.

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