PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
Can we ask a Board member to step down for blatantly breaking the rule that no "for sale" signs can be placed on the lawn on a home? This HOA is in FL.
Thanks
Thanks
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Board Member Breaking Rules
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LindaC3 (Florida)
Posts: 526
Posts: 526
Posted:
PatR...As a member of an HOA in Fla..may I suggest you treat him as a non BOD and serve him with a violation letter according to your documents....LindaC
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Pat:
I would do as Linda suggests, if he fails to comply I think it is then reasonable to ask for his resignation.
I would do as Linda suggests, if he fails to comply I think it is then reasonable to ask for his resignation.
RaymondC (Minnesota)
Posts: 64
Posts: 64
Posted:
Asking him to step down is one thing, but him doing it is another. The Bylaws should tell you how to remove a board member if that's what you want. Removing him from office while remaining on the board requires only a vote of the board in most cases. Follow your rules - that's what you want him to do.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
We've done that, but the sign stil stands
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatR on 08/07/2007 6:03 AM
Can we ask a Board member to step down for blatantly breaking the rule that no "for sale" signs can be placed on the lawn on a home? This HOA is in FL.Thanks
Can we ask a Board member to step down for blatantly breaking the rule that no "for sale" signs can be placed on the lawn on a home? This HOA is in FL.Thanks
This owner should be treated like any other owner. Send a notice of a violation and follow up. Also, check your controlling documents to see whether he is eligible to vote while not in good standing.
The Board of Directors can not remove him from the Board but they can request he resign if he does not correct the violation promptly.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
Thanks so much for your advice.
BradD2 (Florida)
Posts: 418
Posts: 418
Posted:
PatR, you might want to also send a certified letter to the board telling them that it is their duty to enforce the covenants. Florida Statute 720.305 gives you the power to sue to them to comply. You have go through mediation first but a threat of a suit might be enough to force the issue.
It says: 720.305 Obligations of members; remedies at law or in equity; levy of fines and suspension of use rights; failure to fill sufficient number of vacancies on board of directors to constitute a quorum; appointment of receiver upon petition of any member.--
(1) Each member and the member's tenants, guests, and invitees, and each association, are governed by, and must comply with, this chapter, the governing documents of the community, and the rules of the association. Actions at law or in equity, or both, to redress alleged failure or refusal to comply with these provisions may be brought by the association or by any member against:
(a) The association;
(b) A member;
(c) Any director or officer of an association who willfully and knowingly fails to comply with these provisions; and
(d) Any tenants, guests, or invitees occupying a parcel or using the common areas.
The prevailing party in any such litigation is entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees and costs. A member prevailing in an action between the association and the member under this section, in addition to recovering his or her reasonable attorney's fees, may recover additional amounts as determined by the court to be necessary to reimburse the member for his or her share of assessments levied by the association to fund its expenses of the litigation. This relief does not exclude other remedies provided by law. This section does not deprive any person of any other available right or remedy.
Quoting this to them would probably also not be a bad idea.
It says: 720.305 Obligations of members; remedies at law or in equity; levy of fines and suspension of use rights; failure to fill sufficient number of vacancies on board of directors to constitute a quorum; appointment of receiver upon petition of any member.--
(1) Each member and the member's tenants, guests, and invitees, and each association, are governed by, and must comply with, this chapter, the governing documents of the community, and the rules of the association. Actions at law or in equity, or both, to redress alleged failure or refusal to comply with these provisions may be brought by the association or by any member against:
(a) The association;
(b) A member;
(c) Any director or officer of an association who willfully and knowingly fails to comply with these provisions; and
(d) Any tenants, guests, or invitees occupying a parcel or using the common areas.
The prevailing party in any such litigation is entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees and costs. A member prevailing in an action between the association and the member under this section, in addition to recovering his or her reasonable attorney's fees, may recover additional amounts as determined by the court to be necessary to reimburse the member for his or her share of assessments levied by the association to fund its expenses of the litigation. This relief does not exclude other remedies provided by law. This section does not deprive any person of any other available right or remedy.
Quoting this to them would probably also not be a bad idea.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
Thanks that would scare me!
JoeW1 (New York)
Posts: 728
Posts: 728
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BradD2 on 08/07/2007 9:04 AM
The prevailing party in any such litigation is entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees and costs. A member prevailing in an action between the association and the member under this section, in addition to recovering his or her reasonable attorney's fees, may recover additional amounts as determined by the court to be necessary to reimburse the member for his or her share of assessments levied by the association to fund its expenses of the litigation. This relief does not exclude other remedies provided by law. This section does not deprive any person of any other available right or remedy.
idea.
The prevailing party in any such litigation is entitled to recover reasonable attorney's fees and costs. A member prevailing in an action between the association and the member under this section, in addition to recovering his or her reasonable attorney's fees, may recover additional amounts as determined by the court to be necessary to reimburse the member for his or her share of assessments levied by the association to fund its expenses of the litigation. This relief does not exclude other remedies provided by law. This section does not deprive any person of any other available right or remedy.
idea.
Very interesting post BradD2. So suing the association may not necessarily mean you are suing yourself. I like it!!
LindaC3 (Florida)
Posts: 526
Posts: 526
Posted:
PatR.... You may also want to remind this BOD member of their duties..... Good BOD Members lead by design......LindaC
Fiduciary Relationship and Responsibility
The members of the board of directors and each officer of the association
Have a fiduciary relationship with the members of the association. This
Fiduciary relationship imposes obligations of trust and confidence in favor of the
Corporation and its members. It requires the members of the board to act in
Good faith and in the best interests of the members of the association. It
Means that board members must exercise due care and diligence when acting for
The community, and it requires them to act within the scope of their authority.
The fact that the association is a not-for-profit corporation, or that the
Members of the board are volunteers and unpaid, does not relieve them from the
High standards of trust and responsibility that the fiduciary relationship
Requires. When a member accepts a position on the board of directors, he or
She is presumed to have knowledge of the duties and responsibilities of a board
Member. Board members cannot be excused from improper action on the grounds
Of ignorance or inexperience and liability of board members for negligence
And mismanagement exists in favor of the association and the property owners.
Each board member must recognize the fiduciary relationship and the
Responsibilities that the board has to the association and each of its members. The
Board's' duties must be performed with the care and responsibility that an
Ordinary prudent person would exercise under similar circumstances, and the
Ultimate responsibilities of these unique positions cannot be delegated to a
Manager, a management company or other third party.
© Association Times
Permission to reprint any of the information contained in this article is
Granted provided Association Times is credited as the source.
Fiduciary Relationship and Responsibility
The members of the board of directors and each officer of the association
Have a fiduciary relationship with the members of the association. This
Fiduciary relationship imposes obligations of trust and confidence in favor of the
Corporation and its members. It requires the members of the board to act in
Good faith and in the best interests of the members of the association. It
Means that board members must exercise due care and diligence when acting for
The community, and it requires them to act within the scope of their authority.
The fact that the association is a not-for-profit corporation, or that the
Members of the board are volunteers and unpaid, does not relieve them from the
High standards of trust and responsibility that the fiduciary relationship
Requires. When a member accepts a position on the board of directors, he or
She is presumed to have knowledge of the duties and responsibilities of a board
Member. Board members cannot be excused from improper action on the grounds
Of ignorance or inexperience and liability of board members for negligence
And mismanagement exists in favor of the association and the property owners.
Each board member must recognize the fiduciary relationship and the
Responsibilities that the board has to the association and each of its members. The
Board's' duties must be performed with the care and responsibility that an
Ordinary prudent person would exercise under similar circumstances, and the
Ultimate responsibilities of these unique positions cannot be delegated to a
Manager, a management company or other third party.
© Association Times
Permission to reprint any of the information contained in this article is
Granted provided Association Times is credited as the source.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
He has been reminded....
Thanks so much for this info, I will use it.
Pat
Thanks so much for this info, I will use it.
Pat
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
May I point out something? The board member has a for sale sign in the yard correct? Doesn't that mean that he wants to get rid of his home? If he no longer owns a home in the HOA, doesn't that mean he's going to no longer be a member of the HOA? So what does it matter if he has a sign or not? He's obviously leaving and has to give up his post anyways. I say let him keep his sign up and let him go!
Former HOA President
LindaC3 (Florida)
Posts: 526
Posts: 526
Posted:
MelissaP1....So by allowing a BOD Member to violate the CC&R'S because they are leaving is okay in your eyes ? What message does that send to the entire association ? Just think if we all had that attitude of "oh well they are leaving so that rule doesnt apply to them"..............Just imagine the chaos....Rules are rules regardless of whether they are staying or if they going.....They are not any more exempt because of their standing in the community......The post never said if the community is glad or sad that this person is leaving !!! Frankly MelissaP I am shocked by your reply to this post as a former HOA President and a stickler for rules in your own hoa that you would even make this suggestion to Pat..........LindaC
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
He has NOT given up his post, as a matter of fact it's a fairly new board. Even if he was not on the Board, he still has to follow the HOA rules. His house is not sold, so, like every one else in the Community, he must follow the rules as written in his docs.
The community knows he is on the Board, and that makes the situation even worse
for the other Board members.
The community knows he is on the Board, and that makes the situation even worse
for the other Board members.
LindaC3 (Florida)
Posts: 526
Posts: 526
Posted:
PatR....................You hit the nail right on the head !!!!!! Just out of curiosity.....What has his response been to the violation letter you sent him ? LindaC
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
About signs.
The only person that would put up a sign is a person that is leaving. An owner would not put up a sign that reads, "Not for sale". So the directive about no sign is for the people that want to sell. Don't clutter your neighborhood with For Sale Signs. Why not a Bulletin put up some place that lists all units for sale. I am sure any realtor would be glad to do that for you. If the Board can do anything not against the covenants to help sales they should (for a small fee). The market is terrible and mostly doesn't reflect anything about the homes. Certainly if there are numbers of places for sale the Board would not favor one over the other, but they could be responsive as long as no rules are broken.
The only person that would put up a sign is a person that is leaving. An owner would not put up a sign that reads, "Not for sale". So the directive about no sign is for the people that want to sell. Don't clutter your neighborhood with For Sale Signs. Why not a Bulletin put up some place that lists all units for sale. I am sure any realtor would be glad to do that for you. If the Board can do anything not against the covenants to help sales they should (for a small fee). The market is terrible and mostly doesn't reflect anything about the homes. Certainly if there are numbers of places for sale the Board would not favor one over the other, but they could be responsive as long as no rules are broken.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
No response, the sign still stands.
PaulM (Pennsylvania)
Posts: 1,347
Posts: 1,347
Posted:
PatR: Because your documents dictate that a For Sale sign CANNOT be placed on the lawn, do they also dictate WHERE the sign CAN be placed?
Our documents specifically state the accepted size of the sign and that it can be placed in the front window of the home.
Our documents specifically state the accepted size of the sign and that it can be placed in the front window of the home.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
Our docs CLEARLY state that no signs can be placed anywhere on the property.
JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Pat,
Would your documents permit you to remove the sign?
It sounds like you have gone through all the regular procedures concerning the sign, can you assess penalties now?
It seems like the big problem is the sign, not getting him off the board. If you actually are capable of getting the sign to go away, he may quit in anger.
Judy
Would your documents permit you to remove the sign?
It sounds like you have gone through all the regular procedures concerning the sign, can you assess penalties now?
It seems like the big problem is the sign, not getting him off the board. If you actually are capable of getting the sign to go away, he may quit in anger.
Judy
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
The pressure is off, the sign is down.
Thanks for everyones help!
Thanks for everyones help!
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatR on 08/09/2007 1:50 PM
The pressure is off, the sign is down.
Thanks for everyones help!
The pressure is off, the sign is down.
Thanks for everyones help!
Patty:
I think the board should still address this issue with him at perhaps the next meeting or in private. I am a firm believer that board members should set an example and be held to a higher standard. If it wasn't an honest mistake and he took awhile to take it down something should be said in private to him.
NancyD1 (Florida)
Posts: 447
Posts: 447
Posted:
Pat,
Our doc's specifically state that a Board member has to be in good standing with his maintenance, any assessments, fines or violations, or be suspended from the BOD until all is rectified. It is the fudiciary duty of the other members of the board to monitor this.
In our Rules & Reg. we address the sale of homes in the gated community: Signs can go outside of the gates on the north side of the property only. The guardgate has to be notified of an open house with a telephone number of the person at the home. The guard takes all info from the visitors license before entrance.
Our doc's specifically state that a Board member has to be in good standing with his maintenance, any assessments, fines or violations, or be suspended from the BOD until all is rectified. It is the fudiciary duty of the other members of the board to monitor this.
In our Rules & Reg. we address the sale of homes in the gated community: Signs can go outside of the gates on the north side of the property only. The guardgate has to be notified of an open house with a telephone number of the person at the home. The guard takes all info from the visitors license before entrance.
JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Amusingly enough our docs say that you can be denied serving on a committee if there are assessments outstanding, but you can still serve on the board. This is called rulemaking to fit a particular situation rather than a conceptual problem!
BradD2 (Florida)
Posts: 418
Posts: 418
Posted:
Judith in Florida there are very specific things that must happen for a board member to be removed. Unless your governing documents spell out clearly other ways to do it, you are left with just getting a majority of the community to agree to it. Luckily our documents say if you miss 3 board meetings in a row you can be removed.
JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
"Judith in Florida" -- Hmmm, I don't have the problem, and am not in Florida. However, I am not sure your statement is correct. Ours, also, has provisions for removal but I could imagine documents that are silent on the subject. I really thought the focus was on the wrong thing here, but then the ARC violation has now been resolved, so it is moot.
BradD2 (Florida)
Posts: 418
Posts: 418
Posted:
What I was trying to say is that it is very hard to legally get rid of a board member in the State of Florida. As he is in Florida it applies.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
Although the sign is down, the other board members are quite unhappy that he put us is this postion. We are sure that it will be brought up at the next HOA meeting.
I am going to review our docs, and suggest that this be added if it is not already in there.
Since he has made it clear that he is moving, we wish he would step down....but I don't think it's likely.
Thanks
Pat
I am going to review our docs, and suggest that this be added if it is not already in there.
Since he has made it clear that he is moving, we wish he would step down....but I don't think it's likely.
Thanks
Pat
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PatR on 08/10/2007 6:01 AM
Although the sign is down, the other board members are quite unhappy that he put us is this postion. We are sure that it will be brought up at the next HOA meeting.
I am going to review our docs, and suggest that this be added if it is not already in there.
Since he has made it clear that he is moving, we wish he would step down....but I don't think it's likely.
Thanks
Pat
Although the sign is down, the other board members are quite unhappy that he put us is this postion. We are sure that it will be brought up at the next HOA meeting.
I am going to review our docs, and suggest that this be added if it is not already in there.
Since he has made it clear that he is moving, we wish he would step down....but I don't think it's likely.
Thanks
Pat
Pat:
I do think it should be discussed, perhaps not in a public meeting but in private either before or after the meeting. Even if he is moving it may be months before he can sell.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Brad,
I would decide against a closed "{executive)" meeting. He can be invited to speak at a public board meeting if you want. My idea would be to get this behind you. If he don't want to resign and it is a mess to kick him off, wait till his term is up and vote someone new. Just think a closed meeting suggests something to hide. He don't want to hide he put a sign in his front yard.
I would decide against a closed "{executive)" meeting. He can be invited to speak at a public board meeting if you want. My idea would be to get this behind you. If he don't want to resign and it is a mess to kick him off, wait till his term is up and vote someone new. Just think a closed meeting suggests something to hide. He don't want to hide he put a sign in his front yard.
RogerB (Colorado)
Posts: 5,067
Posts: 5,067
Posted:
Pat, I would not bring this up as a personal matter. Rather I would present it as a needed policy. Ask the Board to consider Rules and Regulations for dealing with a Director or a homeowner who is currently cited as being in violation of a restriction. To me suspension from voting seems to be appropriate.
PatR (Florida)
Posts: 139
Posts: 139
Posted:
Thanks good advice from all
JosephC2 (Florida)
Posts: 23
Posts: 23
Posted:
I'd take a different approach. Board members have a fiduciary duty to enforce the Rules of the Association. By the board itself breaking a rule, they are deeming the rule (and other rules) unenforcable. If they try to enfoce any other rule, the violator can simply point at the violation by the Board member and claim selective enforcement. Then the Board/Association would be subject to civil penalties.
I'd write a certified letter to the Association pointing out the the Board is putting the Association at risk by allowing violations of the rules. It doesn't really matter WHO breaks a rule; if the Board allows any violations then they compromise their abilty to enforce any rule. It wouldn't hurt to get a few other members to sign the letter.
I'd write a certified letter to the Association pointing out the the Board is putting the Association at risk by allowing violations of the rules. It doesn't really matter WHO breaks a rule; if the Board allows any violations then they compromise their abilty to enforce any rule. It wouldn't hurt to get a few other members to sign the letter.
NicholasS (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
I am trying to understand the scope of responsibility regarding this matter.
A Board member sees someone violating the rules by throwing stones and rocks into the community pool and jacuzzi. The Board member confronts the violator and askes him to not do that and if he would please remove the stones from the pool and jacuzzi. When asked if he livec here, he stated no he was a guest.The violator gets irate and says no and get away from me and my son. Board member was standing 15 to 20 feet away from violator....so the board member follows him when he leaves the pool to find where he lives so that a violation letter can be sent. Violator calls police and says board member followed him and was intimidating and harrassing him. Board member states he asked nicely not to throw rocks and to remove them.
Board member states to police that he is on the board and he was following the violator so that a violation letter could be sent. Violator would not give his unit # to police.....subsequently when the violator found out that the person following was a board member he sent a protest letter to the board.
Board states that a board member cannot ask if someone is a resident or ask them where they live or repremand them that they are committing a violation.
or follow them to se where they live...and that no action can be taken by a board member.
This incident was in AZ at 6pm in the evening...no manager on site and no security until 9.
Pleaae advise what the proper scope of authority would be and how a response letter should be addressed.
Another scenario, manager and security do not enforce the CC&rs regarding no glass at the pool. The board fails to enforce this policy and ai feel this is a big liability to the homeowners..How would you address this to fellow board members?
Please reply to my email address [email protected]
I truly appreciate your expertise and response.
Conderned board member and homeowner.
We have no board scope in our bylaws.
A Board member sees someone violating the rules by throwing stones and rocks into the community pool and jacuzzi. The Board member confronts the violator and askes him to not do that and if he would please remove the stones from the pool and jacuzzi. When asked if he livec here, he stated no he was a guest.The violator gets irate and says no and get away from me and my son. Board member was standing 15 to 20 feet away from violator....so the board member follows him when he leaves the pool to find where he lives so that a violation letter can be sent. Violator calls police and says board member followed him and was intimidating and harrassing him. Board member states he asked nicely not to throw rocks and to remove them.
Board member states to police that he is on the board and he was following the violator so that a violation letter could be sent. Violator would not give his unit # to police.....subsequently when the violator found out that the person following was a board member he sent a protest letter to the board.
Board states that a board member cannot ask if someone is a resident or ask them where they live or repremand them that they are committing a violation.
or follow them to se where they live...and that no action can be taken by a board member.
This incident was in AZ at 6pm in the evening...no manager on site and no security until 9.
Pleaae advise what the proper scope of authority would be and how a response letter should be addressed.
Another scenario, manager and security do not enforce the CC&rs regarding no glass at the pool. The board fails to enforce this policy and ai feel this is a big liability to the homeowners..How would you address this to fellow board members?
Please reply to my email address [email protected]
I truly appreciate your expertise and response.
Conderned board member and homeowner.
We have no board scope in our bylaws.
EllenS1 (Florida)
Posts: 1,148
Posts: 1,148
Posted:
I'm in Florida too and our docs allow "for rent" or "for sale" signs but not any others. If we see "no trespassing" signs, etc our docs allow the Association to remove them with no liability. Sometimes actions speak louder than words. Depends on a careful reading of your docs on ths matter.
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Nicholas,
I feel strongly that a careful read of your documents would reveal the board has full authority to enforce the rules or covenants. If fact I would bet that somewhere in the papers that the association requires all members to sign or in the master deed or by-laws, it is stipulated that any owner has the authority to report or call security about any covenant violation. If it is against another owner then a hearing should be held before the Board, but in your case there was a clear violation. This does not give members authority to deal out punishment or arrest powers for covenant violation. Just to attempt to correct the violation and submit a report or if serious to call the proper authorities. Our Board has bent so far backward, that one of there stated recommendation for members that wittness violations is; "To forget about it. But ur Board is not noted for sage solution to problems and this recommendation is pure hogwash. The Board is not endowed to issue such orders, they are bound by th documents and cannot over ride them. It could be that some of your documents got changed or were changed and it is always best to go to Courthouse and verify your current documents with what is on file.
All that being said, your example is the old old story. Someone did not like being told they acted foolishly. Maybe the Board member didn't act in the most diplomatic manner, who knows and more to the point, who cares. If the violator wants to disagree with his accussor, so be it. Let them come before the Board for arbitration. There is no way this board or any other Board or authority is going to specify what can be said or should be said. That is a separate problem and my sympathies are with any member, board or not that is active in supporting the laws that they all live under. Should there be appeals? Of course. Should there be fines for misconduct? Of course. Should the Board lead the way in enforcement, of course they should, it is their mandate. Should members try and maintain the order as prescribed bt the Documents? It is their responsibility, freely accepted when they moved in.
This will not solve all the problems, but when things happen it is best to be on the side of the association documents.
I feel strongly that a careful read of your documents would reveal the board has full authority to enforce the rules or covenants. If fact I would bet that somewhere in the papers that the association requires all members to sign or in the master deed or by-laws, it is stipulated that any owner has the authority to report or call security about any covenant violation. If it is against another owner then a hearing should be held before the Board, but in your case there was a clear violation. This does not give members authority to deal out punishment or arrest powers for covenant violation. Just to attempt to correct the violation and submit a report or if serious to call the proper authorities. Our Board has bent so far backward, that one of there stated recommendation for members that wittness violations is; "To forget about it. But ur Board is not noted for sage solution to problems and this recommendation is pure hogwash. The Board is not endowed to issue such orders, they are bound by th documents and cannot over ride them. It could be that some of your documents got changed or were changed and it is always best to go to Courthouse and verify your current documents with what is on file.
All that being said, your example is the old old story. Someone did not like being told they acted foolishly. Maybe the Board member didn't act in the most diplomatic manner, who knows and more to the point, who cares. If the violator wants to disagree with his accussor, so be it. Let them come before the Board for arbitration. There is no way this board or any other Board or authority is going to specify what can be said or should be said. That is a separate problem and my sympathies are with any member, board or not that is active in supporting the laws that they all live under. Should there be appeals? Of course. Should there be fines for misconduct? Of course. Should the Board lead the way in enforcement, of course they should, it is their mandate. Should members try and maintain the order as prescribed bt the Documents? It is their responsibility, freely accepted when they moved in.
This will not solve all the problems, but when things happen it is best to be on the side of the association documents.
NicholasS (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
I really appreciate your respomse.
I am a new board member and board member who witnessed the violation and followed the violator home with distance to see where he lived to have a letter sent.
I wanted to clairfy my position to you.
The board demanded I never confront anyone who is in violation, my only recourse is to call security and hope the violator stays put long enough for security to arive and take proper action.
I felt it was my duty to confront the violators and make certain the CC&R are enforced. The Board states it will be sued. The board states that they will NOT tolorate this kind of behavior and asking me to step down if I don't turn the other cheek.
They want to send a appology letter stating this kind of behavior will not be tolorated by our board members.
I'm totally baffled by the boards lack of enforcement. I felt a violation letter should be sent to the violator after the apology letter,and told the board this. They became irate with my suggestion.They a afraid of being sued because of my actions.
Please comment once again. Our associatoin is only 3 yeard old and I can't find any documentation stating the boards scope of athourty other than the duties of the board members. Can you help me in finding where my scope of authority lies? Have I overstepped here?
I look forward to your response.
Thanks, Nicholas
I am a new board member and board member who witnessed the violation and followed the violator home with distance to see where he lived to have a letter sent.
I wanted to clairfy my position to you.
The board demanded I never confront anyone who is in violation, my only recourse is to call security and hope the violator stays put long enough for security to arive and take proper action.
I felt it was my duty to confront the violators and make certain the CC&R are enforced. The Board states it will be sued. The board states that they will NOT tolorate this kind of behavior and asking me to step down if I don't turn the other cheek.
They want to send a appology letter stating this kind of behavior will not be tolorated by our board members.
I'm totally baffled by the boards lack of enforcement. I felt a violation letter should be sent to the violator after the apology letter,and told the board this. They became irate with my suggestion.They a afraid of being sued because of my actions.
Please comment once again. Our associatoin is only 3 yeard old and I can't find any documentation stating the boards scope of athourty other than the duties of the board members. Can you help me in finding where my scope of authority lies? Have I overstepped here?
I look forward to your response.
Thanks, Nicholas
JudithC (Virginia)
Posts: 253
Posts: 253
Posted:
Nicholas,
I was amazed at this post.
What ever happened to the oft repeated advice to handle things on a one to one basis if possible? It seems to me just as a member of the community you would say something to him at that time. If he got hostile (which almost everyone does), for your own protection, back away and call security or the police.
I think your board is wrong not to back you. Is the new rule that if you are obnoxious enough you can damage property and perhaps harm other residents? It seems like these two thing are the primary concern of the board -- it is not to sit there, cogitate, and make pronouncements.
Judy
I was amazed at this post.
What ever happened to the oft repeated advice to handle things on a one to one basis if possible? It seems to me just as a member of the community you would say something to him at that time. If he got hostile (which almost everyone does), for your own protection, back away and call security or the police.
I think your board is wrong not to back you. Is the new rule that if you are obnoxious enough you can damage property and perhaps harm other residents? It seems like these two thing are the primary concern of the board -- it is not to sit there, cogitate, and make pronouncements.
Judy
RobertR1 (South Carolina)
Posts: 5,164
Posts: 5,164
Posted:
Nicholas,
First, tell us more about your association. Also, explain who "security" is. Then go to the state website and see if there is a state statute that addresses association like yours. You seem to be saying their are no rules that govern the operation of your association. If your board is worried about being sued they should be worried about not enforcing their proscribed rules. Obviously there are personalities involved, they have to be dealt with. If you feel threatened by the Board take a recorder to the meeting and record what is said or get a supporter to wittness any threats to you personally. Send the Board a written request spelling out their authority to not enforce rules. I say again, make sure you are reading all your documents, from the state Act, non profit corporation laws (you are incorporated I assume), Master Deed, By-laws and any puiblished rules. Go back through your minutes records and see what brought on this position by the Board. If not satisfied, get them to dismiss you for reason and don't give them any reason, get it in writing. If you were elected by the members, you can not be fired by the Board. As noted by a post by Bruce the hierarchy does not travel from Board down, goes from Owners down to Board. Read your documents, if no documents, go to your state representative and find out why. We have had numerous posting from folks in Arizona, check the search feature on the main page, check the links to the left on this page.
First, tell us more about your association. Also, explain who "security" is. Then go to the state website and see if there is a state statute that addresses association like yours. You seem to be saying their are no rules that govern the operation of your association. If your board is worried about being sued they should be worried about not enforcing their proscribed rules. Obviously there are personalities involved, they have to be dealt with. If you feel threatened by the Board take a recorder to the meeting and record what is said or get a supporter to wittness any threats to you personally. Send the Board a written request spelling out their authority to not enforce rules. I say again, make sure you are reading all your documents, from the state Act, non profit corporation laws (you are incorporated I assume), Master Deed, By-laws and any puiblished rules. Go back through your minutes records and see what brought on this position by the Board. If not satisfied, get them to dismiss you for reason and don't give them any reason, get it in writing. If you were elected by the members, you can not be fired by the Board. As noted by a post by Bruce the hierarchy does not travel from Board down, goes from Owners down to Board. Read your documents, if no documents, go to your state representative and find out why. We have had numerous posting from folks in Arizona, check the search feature on the main page, check the links to the left on this page.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
To me that is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. If someone is violating your covenants and you are there to witness it you can't confront or ask them not to do it?
Ask your board if there is money in the budget for paddles, that way as board members when you are out and see something wrong you can hand the violator a paddle and take a butt whooping too.
I see nothing wrong with what this board member or you did. You asked them to stop doing something and then when they lied and said they weren't a guest you followed them at a safe distance to determine where they lived. Perhaps you should have called the police first to report vandalism, that would have been the only thing I would have done differently in that situation.
Ask your board if there is money in the budget for paddles, that way as board members when you are out and see something wrong you can hand the violator a paddle and take a butt whooping too.
I see nothing wrong with what this board member or you did. You asked them to stop doing something and then when they lied and said they weren't a guest you followed them at a safe distance to determine where they lived. Perhaps you should have called the police first to report vandalism, that would have been the only thing I would have done differently in that situation.
NicholasS (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Judith C,
Thank you for your support. I have been troubled by the boards lack of support. They cannot fire me, just ask me to step down....which I will not.
My wife who is a member of the community politely asked someone who was walking their dogs on the pedestrian walkway if perhaps they would use the area in front of the vehicles as opposed to the walkway. Just by doing this it would help to eliminate the numerous dogs using the walkway for a bathroom. Even though most dogs are on leashes it is still quite intimidating when they are big dogs coming for you as you try to use the sidewalks when going from pointe to pointe. From this polite request, she was reported to the manager for asking such a thing and then the board said she cannot say anything to anyone....as she is the wife of a Board member.and now they have to send another letter of apology....
I will continue to research for the docs that will clarify this issue.
Actually, I feel the other Board members should supply them to me to support their actions.
Thank you again, Nicholas
Thank you for your support. I have been troubled by the boards lack of support. They cannot fire me, just ask me to step down....which I will not.
My wife who is a member of the community politely asked someone who was walking their dogs on the pedestrian walkway if perhaps they would use the area in front of the vehicles as opposed to the walkway. Just by doing this it would help to eliminate the numerous dogs using the walkway for a bathroom. Even though most dogs are on leashes it is still quite intimidating when they are big dogs coming for you as you try to use the sidewalks when going from pointe to pointe. From this polite request, she was reported to the manager for asking such a thing and then the board said she cannot say anything to anyone....as she is the wife of a Board member.and now they have to send another letter of apology....
I will continue to research for the docs that will clarify this issue.
Actually, I feel the other Board members should supply them to me to support their actions.
Thank you again, Nicholas
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
Nicolas, I would caution them that they would have much more valid reason to be afraid of YOUR lawsuit (for their failure to perform their fiduciary duty) than they do of a hothead who violates the governing documents.
Those types of guys make threats like that all the time.
And they would have nothing to worry about in a lawsuit from him, anyway.
On the other hand, their continual lack of enforcement of the covenants IS provable (by you through their actions AND through there message IN WRITING to you) and you would have a much stronger case than someone who was violating the covenants and who was trying to bully the board (and you) into not enforcing.
Hope that made sense!
Those types of guys make threats like that all the time.
And they would have nothing to worry about in a lawsuit from him, anyway.
On the other hand, their continual lack of enforcement of the covenants IS provable (by you through their actions AND through there message IN WRITING to you) and you would have a much stronger case than someone who was violating the covenants and who was trying to bully the board (and you) into not enforcing.
Hope that made sense!
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Nicholas:
If our board told my non-board member wife she couldn't say anything there would be some serious yelling going on behind closed doors where I live. Last time I checked this is the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, we are free to speak what we want. Your wife, especially since she isn't a board member, can not be limited in her right to free speech.
They are absolutely ridiculous to send an apology note.
If our board told my non-board member wife she couldn't say anything there would be some serious yelling going on behind closed doors where I live. Last time I checked this is the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, we are free to speak what we want. Your wife, especially since she isn't a board member, can not be limited in her right to free speech.
They are absolutely ridiculous to send an apology note.
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
correction...this IS NOT the Soviet Union...can't type today
MicheleD (Kentucky)
Posts: 4,491
Posts: 4,491
Posted:
That's okay, I typed "through there message" instead of "through their message."
What makes it worse is that I used the correct "their" just two words earlier.
Dang fingers with minds of their(there,they're) own!
What makes it worse is that I used the correct "their" just two words earlier.
Dang fingers with minds of their(there,they're) own!
NicholasS (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Robert,
This is what I have so far. I am researching the bylays to see if I missed something. How would you interpret paragraph A?
Thanks, Nicholas
A.R.S. ARIZONA
33-1243. Board of directors and officers; conflict; powers; limitations;
removal; annual audit; applicability
A. Except as provided in the declaration, the bylaws, subsection B or
other provisions of this chapter, the board of directors may act in all
instances on behalf of the association.
B. The board of directors shall not act on behalf of the association to
amend the declaration, terminate the condominium, elect members of the
board of directors or determine the qualifications, powers and duties or
terms of office of board of directors members. The board of directors may
fill vacancies in its membership for the unexpired portion of any term.
In our CC&Rs it states under Rights, Powers, and Duties of the Association that "The Association shall have such rights,powers and duties
as are prescribes by law and as are set forth in the condominium Documents together with such rights, powers and duties as may be reasonably necessary in order to effectuate the objectives and purposes of the Association as set forth in ths Declaration and the Condominium Act.
I am not reading anything that states I cannot talk to a violator.....
Am I interpreting these correctly???
Your response please, thanks Nicholas
This is what I have so far. I am researching the bylays to see if I missed something. How would you interpret paragraph A?
Thanks, Nicholas
A.R.S. ARIZONA
33-1243. Board of directors and officers; conflict; powers; limitations;
removal; annual audit; applicability
A. Except as provided in the declaration, the bylaws, subsection B or
other provisions of this chapter, the board of directors may act in all
instances on behalf of the association.
B. The board of directors shall not act on behalf of the association to
amend the declaration, terminate the condominium, elect members of the
board of directors or determine the qualifications, powers and duties or
terms of office of board of directors members. The board of directors may
fill vacancies in its membership for the unexpired portion of any term.
In our CC&Rs it states under Rights, Powers, and Duties of the Association that "The Association shall have such rights,powers and duties
as are prescribes by law and as are set forth in the condominium Documents together with such rights, powers and duties as may be reasonably necessary in order to effectuate the objectives and purposes of the Association as set forth in ths Declaration and the Condominium Act.
I am not reading anything that states I cannot talk to a violator.....
Am I interpreting these correctly???
Your response please, thanks Nicholas
NicholasS (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Michael,
My thanks....we do have an attorney as a board member who told me my thoughts of sending a violation letter would throw this incident in to an inferno and I need to do nothing but call security or step down or the Board will be sued???
What is he talking about!
The security mentioned is a service the Board has hired to lock the pool gates at night and to respond to calls regarding those junping the fence to use the jacuzzi and party after hours..between 10pm and 6am. .....
of which they have asked me to stop calling now that I am a Board member.
I need to work thru this and make thing right here.
I need all the guidance you have to offer.
What are they so afraid of here?
Thanks, Nicholas
My thanks....we do have an attorney as a board member who told me my thoughts of sending a violation letter would throw this incident in to an inferno and I need to do nothing but call security or step down or the Board will be sued???
What is he talking about!
The security mentioned is a service the Board has hired to lock the pool gates at night and to respond to calls regarding those junping the fence to use the jacuzzi and party after hours..between 10pm and 6am. .....
of which they have asked me to stop calling now that I am a Board member.
I need to work thru this and make thing right here.
I need all the guidance you have to offer.
What are they so afraid of here?
Thanks, Nicholas
NicholasS (Arizona)
Posts: 10
Posts: 10
Posted:
Brad P
Thanks for your opinion of support.
What are your thoughts on the apology letter the board wants to send and the violation letter I feel they should send?
Thanks, Nicholas
Thanks for your opinion of support.
What are your thoughts on the apology letter the board wants to send and the violation letter I feel they should send?
Thanks, Nicholas
BradP (Kansas)
Posts: 2,640
Posts: 2,640
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By NicholasS on 05/29/2008 12:45 PM
Brad P
Thanks for your opinion of support.
What are your thoughts on the apology letter the board wants to send and the violation letter I feel they should send?
Thanks, Nicholas
Brad P
Thanks for your opinion of support.
What are your thoughts on the apology letter the board wants to send and the violation letter I feel they should send?
Thanks, Nicholas
What are they apologizing for?? Are they going to send an apology letter everytime a resident upsets another resident? Your wife is not a board member, therefore what is the board apologizing for. Next you will see letters that say..."The board sincerely apologizes for the person who was tailgating you as you drove through the neighborhood...we have reprimanded this citizen and asked them never to drive again."
If a violation occurred, was witnessed and reported, the board needs to send out a letter or else they are not doing their job.
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