šŸ’¬ Join us to post & get advice from 50,000 HOA & Condo leaders.

Create Free Account →

⚔ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in

AmyS16 (Georgia)
Posts: 4
Posted:
I know this is a common topic. I was board President for 3 of the past 4 years. The 4th year I was secretary. Our new president who has been on the board before, has been harrassing me. First, no where in our covenants does it require former board members to,turn over any or all documents to the new board. It also does not state that old quotes and expired/finished deals from the past are the legal property of the Hoa. With that said, I have emailed every current contact for current vendors I have to the new board. I have turned over contracts I had but for some reason, this new president wants ā€œeverythingā€. Most of which has been tossed and I told them that. There is one photo I have of our main road, which is a public road, that is currently being widened. The photo is old and does not show any information. It’s just an overhead photo like you see in google earth. This new president even went so far as to call a former vendor, someone who has been paid in full and has no business with us, and tell them not to contact me because i’m Not on the board anymore and it’s ā€œnone of my businessā€.
Yesterday, I received via email, a letter of demand for all documents I have. Which, as I stated, I have none because I have tossed them. She has had people draft letters to email on her behalf and I have even asked her indirectly to call me and she hasn’t. She has threatened me with ā€œfurther actionā€ whatever that means. She even accused me of representing myself as a current board member, which is a lie and being in touch with vendors, another lie.
I am tired of her bothering me and i’m tired of explaining that I gave them all they need.
I am thinking of replying by siting what and when and to whom I emailed pertant information to and ask her to quote the page and paragraph in our covenants that says I must turn over all documents and site the page and paragraph where this information is the legal property of the Hoa.

Any suggestions?
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Why would you "toss" documents associated with the association?
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
I suggest you comply. What can it hurt to give the new president everything he/she is asking for? I think it best for all Board members to pass along everything you have when you step down or resign. If you don't, you may find yourself in trouble. It is property of the HOA.
SueW6 (Michigan)
Posts: 814
Posted:
As secretary, you were the guardian of all the official records, minutes and attachments dealing with the Association business during your term.

But you were NOT the owner. You had no right to "toss" anything.

It's pretty boilerplate that all documents/records be forwarded to the new officer ASAP.

Perhaps the minutes you took had attachments (contracts, etc) so that they can put together the history of a past project that has some relevance today.

CjC
Posts: 210
Posted:
I would think that as secretary, all of your records, including expired deals etc would be recorded with your records and turned over. You shouldn't bee looking for guidance in your HOA docs on this, but on Georgia law for record retention of a corporation. Lets say the next board wants to see a history of maintenance costs so that they can properly budget, they might want 5-10 years of contracts to make sure they are comparing apples to apples and the contracts all included the same amount of work. Even though "the job is done" the board still needs to see this. If your HOA gets audited, you may need some of these. Why would you keep (or throw them away)?
AmyS16 (Georgia)
Posts: 4
Posted:
The documents in question are quotes that are no longer valid, for example, we had a few trees removed 3 years ago. Why would someone need a quote for that when we don’t have these trees anymore and the vendor was not hired? No board incoming, even the ones I was on, has ā€œdemandedā€ all documents be turned over. It is not in the covenants.
I, in good faith did turn over all documents that they needed. The photo in question is a copy. I gave them one already even if it isn’t applicable to anything but she still wants it all even when I don’t have anything.
It’s a power thing. That’s my point. She is lying to the other board members about me and they are new residents so they haven’t seen her true colors yet. We already had one board member resign due to ā€œpersonal reasonsā€. It wasn’t personal. It was she saw what this woman is and said, oh heck no...
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Amy,

Welcome to the forum.

As Secretary, you would have been custodian for the Association Records.
Per Georgia Property Owners' Association Act, specifically § 44-3-231, the records include:

(1) Detailed minutes of all meetings of the members of the association and of the board of directors;
[In my opinion, these would be the approved minutes with all attachments and the draft minutes of the previous meetings]

(2) Detailed and accurate financial records, including itemized records of all receipts and expenditures; and
[In my opinion, these would be lot ledgers, financial reports, bank statements, deposit slips, receipts, cancelled checks, etc. for the last 7 years]

(3) Any books and records as may be required by law or be necessary to reflect accurately the affairs and activities of the association.
[In my opinion, these would be all approved contracts, all proposals for contracts waiting to be awarded, Reserve studies, Original governing documents (or certified copies if filed with the county/city), architectural requests, enforcement actions (open and closed), membership list, etc.]

Per the GA NONPROFIT CORPORATIONS statutes, specifically § 14-3-1601, these records would also be:

(a) A corporation shall keep as permanent records minutes of all meetings of its members and board of directors, executed consents evidencing all actions taken by the members or board of directors without a meeting, a record of all actions taken by a committee of the board of directors in place of the board of directors on behalf of the corporation, and waivers of notice of all meetings of the board of directors and its committees.

(b) A corporation shall maintain appropriate accounting records.

(c) A corporation or its agent shall maintain a record of its members in a form that permits preparation of a list of the name and address of all members, in alphabetical order by class, showing the number of votes each member is entitled to cast.

Based on your posting, there is obviously a personality conflict between the current President and yourself.
Have you tried asking what it is specifically they think are missing? If you have, what is it they say they are looking for?

Contrary to others, I understand going through, organizing and tossing records. Nobody wants boxes of paper cluttering up their home. Hopefully you obtained permission prior to tossing OR, at the very least, you were still a member of the board when you did toss (vs. after you completed your service) and informed the Board of this.

For example, when I served as Secretary, I noticed a lot of records were missing. Fortunately, there was a set of minutes that showed the Board (wrongfully) approved the Secretary at the time to toss records that the Secretary felt were no longer needed. I say wrongfully because years of minutes were tossed and per law, we were to keep those indefinitely. At least there was documentation where those records went and I could reference that set of minutes for the missing documents.

You do need to reply to the demand letter and, since you admitted you tossed records, the reply needs to be worded properly. Because legal action is being threatened, you may want an attorney to draft a reply for you.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
So, Amy, your HOA has no property manager who keeps records, etc.? If not, then as sec'y you need to have kept them. I would just put everything you have in a carton or cartons an give them to her. Maybe send her certified mail return receipt requested a letter accompanying the carton. Make it very clear you have no other materials.

Doesn't you HOA have online files of many things?

I have a whole big file drawer full of HOA stuff that I'll toss when I "retire," but we have a MC who keeps all materials.

If your HOA is incorporated, do as CjC suggests and read GA corporations code about what records you should retain and for how long.

As for the current prez spreading rumors about you, you can do no more than anyone who has rumors spread about them. Not much unless you can somehow prove the rumors have harmed you and take her to court.

What size is your HOA, Amy?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 11:01 AM

The documents in question are quotes that are no longer valid, for example, we had a few trees removed 3 years ago. Why would someone need a quote for that when we don’t have these trees anymore and the vendor was not hired?

I agree that the bids for projects were not required to be kept. However, had they been kept, it would have shown that bids were sought and contracts were not simply awarded without bidding.

Executed contracts should be kept.

Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 11:01 AM

No board incoming, even the ones I was on, has ā€œdemandedā€ all documents be turned over. It is not in the covenants.

Personally, if past boards failed to demand records, they should have (unless they felt that all records were provided).

Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 11:01 AM

It’s a power thing. That’s my point. She is lying to the other board members about me and they are new residents so they haven’t seen her true colors yet.

Then attend the next board meeting to formally present your written response so others may ask questions if they have any.

OR

Send the written response to all board members (at their homes) and specify that you will attend the next meeting to answer any questions they may have. Bring your documentation, if any, to show what records were transferred.

NOTE TO ALL

This conversation is an excellent reason for Officers to identify records that they do have custody of and have a written receipt identifying said records as what is being transferred.

Example:

1 box of minutes from yyyy to yyyy
1 box containing governing documents (list them), awarded contracts, insurance policies, annual reports, etc.
1 box containing individual lot records
1 flash drive containing electronic versions of . . .

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:

Send a certified letter to the president, carbon copy to the HOA attorney, stating the following:
~~~
Re: Your February 26, 2017 demand letter

Dear Madam President,

1.
I have turned over to the Association all the Association records I have.

2.
Please cease and desist informing people that I am still on the board and that I am still in touch with Association vendors. These assertions are false. Also your assertions and repeated demand for records I do not have are harassment. Please cease and desist from this harassment.

3.
In the future, please communicate with me only through the HOA attorney.

Thank you for your cooperation,

cc:
HOA attorney
~~~

Subsequently feel free to distribute a copy of your letter at meetings and by email to friends.

You were paid nothing for your several years of service. I think this makes what is happening to you particularly offensive. Unfortunately, the nonsense you are experiencing is the price of being a public figure (a former director). Your possible legal remedies are scant.

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 02/27/2018 11:11 AM
Based on your posting, there is obviously a personality conflict between the current President and yourself.


I think it's as likely that the current President is incompetent and irrational. It happens a lot.
AmyS16 (Georgia)
Posts: 4
Posted:
Thank you all for your input.
We do have a property management company that keeps our records and books. The president actually asked this company to email me to get the records instead of asking, herself. This was after I told her I had a death in the family, out of state and my emails would be delayed. She lives 100 yards away from me and not one time called me or came over to talk to me, even though I asked her to.
We are a small community, not very formal about meetings, which has been that way for years.
Thanks for the Georgia condo law tidbit. I looked into that and per that code, I have legally held up my end. All the past quotes and old documentation I was referring to, do not paint any picture of the association's affairs, which is what I've been trying to tell her--besides the fact that I already sent them all I had.
The fact that she copied the management company, the prior board and the current board (why she needed to copy the old board is beyond me) and accuse me of representing myself as a board member to vendors and contacting vendors is absurd. I have not. Even if I did contact a vendor, there's no law that says I can't, at least from what I could find, as long as I am not representing the board, when I'm not on the board.

This whole experience has left me with a very bitter taste for HOA's, especially condo/townhome. I will probably never buy another condo or townhome again, even after we retire in 5-8 years and move.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I like Augie's ideas, Amy!
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 02/27/2018 1:12 PM
Posted By TimB4 on 02/27/2018 11:11 AM
Based on your posting, there is obviously a personality conflict between the current President and yourself.


I think it's as likely that the current President is incompetent and irrational. It happens a lot.

Could be. However there are little signs that may indicate it's deeper:

Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 11:01 AM [emphasis added]

I, in good faith did turn over all documents that they needed.

Not that she had, but what she felt the new Board needed.

Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 11:01 AM

No board incoming, even the ones I was on, has ā€œdemandedā€ all documents be turned over. It is not in the covenants.

Why is that an argument?

Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 10:35 AM

First, no where in our covenants does it require former board members to,turn over any or all documents to the new board.

From the initial posting, again the fact that the covenants don't say to turn over records. To me, it's common sense, you turn over any Association records you have to the new Board.

Quote:
Posted By AmyS16 on 02/27/2018 10:35 AM

I have turned over contracts I had but for some reason, this new president wants ā€œeverythingā€. Most of which has been tossed and I told them that.

My question would be when were records tossed. Just after leaving office or while serving in office?

Keep in mind, based on what has been posted, I agree the new President is being unreasonable. I'm simply pointing out things that I interpret to show the conflict between these two might not be one sided.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Amy

Did you or did you not turn over every single thing you have? I get the opinion you did not.
MarkM19 (Texas)
Posts: 1,459
Posted:
As an Ex Board President for 4 years and Treasurer for 4 years. I would like to suggest to yours and other boards.

Shortly after the email scandal with Hillary our Board with my direction decided that we would purchase 5 Laptop computers that were the property of our HOA along with Mtce contracts and the associated software and Anti virus. We setup new email addresses for all board members ie [email protected] we also setup an email address that forwarded all board emails from [email protected] All board related materials and any board correspondence was to go to these emails. These laptops were used at the meeting and when the board members were doing board related business. We had nothing personal on them and when the board member was replaced the new member was elected they would take control of the asset. The laptops cost us less than $500.00 with all the software and accessories. This saved us from having our MC print 100 to 200-page packets for each board member every month which we paid then to produce. It also saved us the problem of having sensitive information on paper copies floating around. This helped offset the original cost of the computers over the years.

In my case I had board members that shared email accounts with spouses and the board packets and sensitive documents were being seen by eyes that should not have seen things. I had a great board, so this was not a problem, but I had several ex board members that were always looking for things to catch us so that they could harass us. Our board felt like this was the best way to separate board stuff from personal stuff.

šŸŽÆ You've read this entire discussion

Join the conversation with 50,000 HOA & Condo Leaders:

  • āœ“ Ask follow-up questions
  • āœ“ Share your experience
  • āœ“ Get expert advice
  • āœ“ Access 350,000 discussions
Create Free Account →

⚔ Takes 30 seconds

Already a member? Log in here