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DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
I'm looking for examples of Late Fee Schedules that will work. I'm thinking 5% after 15 days, then 10 % for every 30 after and only applying the late fee percentage to the fees and assessments, not including previous late fees.

Thoughts?

Thank in advance.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Late fees will be stated in the CCRs. It could be a percentage, it could be a dollar amount or many will say, for instance, 10% or $10.00 whichever is greater. Certain states have specific guidelines on how payments are applied to a homeowner's account, which, legally, must be followed. California is one that does have specific guidelines.

The other issue is there are state laws that set limits.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
We met with an attorney last week and this was one of the topics. Our CC&R's do not state what the late fees are. They do say that the board can charge fees for late payment.

I'm just looking for examples of what works. Once I see that, I'll check the legality of it.

Care to share what you late fee schedule is?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
In California, this is the max:

A late charge not to exceed 10% of the delinquent assessment or $10.00, whichever is greater (unless the CC&Rs specify a smaller amount).

Interest on delinquent assessments, reasonable fees and costs of collection, and reasonable attorney's fees, at an annual interest rate not to exceed 12%, commencing 30 days after the assessment becomes due, unless the CC&Rs specify a lower interest rate, in which case the lesser rate applies.

Reasonable attorneys' fees and costs incurred in collecting the delinquent assessment.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Not really looking for state max, but thanks for the info.

Does anyone have an example of their late fee schedule? Or does everyone follow state law/CC&R's to the letter?
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
This is from Section 33-1803 of Planned Communities Act

A payment by a member is deemed late if it is unpaid fifteen or more days after its due date, unless the community documents provide for a longer period. Charges for the late payment of assessments are limited to the greater of fifteen dollars or ten percent of the amount of the unpaid assessment and may be imposed only after the association has provided notice that the assessment is overdue or provided notice that the assessment is considered overdue after a certain date. Any monies paid by the member for an unpaid assessment shall be applied first to the principal amount unpaid and then to the interest accrued.

Don't see anything in the Condo Act

Are you saying you would disregard state law?

If you are suggesting a step process of 5% and then 10% after certain number of days, who is going to do all the work and followup?
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
The language below is from the Declaration of a 12 year old condominium complex in the Dallas area with specific language which refers to Regular Assessments only:

Failure to pay the Assessment by the fifteenth (15th) day of the month shall require the imposition and assessment of a late charge of ten percent (10%) of the amount of the Assessment due, or such amount that may be established by the Association from time to time.

Under the language above, the 10% would apply to the Regular Assessment amount only and would not be 10% of any other outstanding charges such as fines or previously applied late charges. The documents for this Association are silent with respect to charging past due interest.

We personally believe this language should have also made reference to late payment charges applied to Special Assessments.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
We have a 15 days late and it's $20. Our Fees were $50 a month.

Now I use this as a rule of thumb when estimating charges. What does the bank/credit card companies charge? You know they are going by whatever federal/state laws exist. For example: Check out how much a bad check charges are. It's usually posted at a cash register. Last time I saw one it said $27. So I would think if the HOA got a bad check we could charge $27 as a guide. Same with Credit cards. I would check out their penalty set up. It should give an idea of the percentages and interest can charge.

It's not perfect but Atleast give a direction of what should be looking for.

Former HOA President
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/31/2018 3:42 PM
We have a 15 days late and it's $20. Our Fees were $50 a month.

Now I use this as a rule of thumb when estimating charges. What does the bank/credit card companies charge? You know they are going by whatever federal/state laws exist. For example: Check out how much a bad check charges are. It's usually posted at a cash register. Last time I saw one it said $27. So I would think if the HOA got a bad check we could charge $27 as a guide. Same with Credit cards. I would check out their penalty set up. It should give an idea of the percentages and interest can charge.

It's not perfect but Atleast give a direction of what should be looking for.

I have my own rule of thumb....follow state laws
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062
Posted:
As Richard pointed out, if it's not mentioned within your CC&Rs you are then limited by your States applicable laws (which might not be property or corporate laws)
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
There can be state law limits (like the interest rate on a credit card) but there can also be additional "overhead costs" added in.

We had one owner that was 3 years behind in dues to the tune of $1,800. With all additional charges, late fees, legal charges, etc. the bottom line would have been $4,200 to pay is all off.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I don't know how ours was originally set, but I think it was based in part on the association's costs in sending out late notices. By the time I left the board 4 years ago, it had increased to $50 or so. To keep things simple, we applied it for every month the person was late.

After 60 days, the account was on its way to the attorney for collection and then the homeowner was socked with the processing fees the association was charged for monitoring the account, so that was another $50 or so. After that, the attorneys fees and legal expenses would pile on. If the homeowner has returned checks, that was yet another fee based on what our bank charged.

You can do percentages, but I think flat fees are easier to deal with - when homeowners want an account statement, they can see exactly what was charged and when. It's also easier to drop the late fees (which we usually didn't do because people rarely had a good reason). For me, late fees should be a deterrent - it's not about gouging people, but giving them a reason to take steps to ensure they weren't late, such as automatic deductions from their bank account. Don't want to pay a fee you think is "too high?" Pay your bloody assessment in full and on time!

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Example:

Assessment is 300.00 per quarter. Late fee is 5% after 15 days late, and 10% after 30 days.

If not paid in 16 days:
300.00 assessment
15.00 late fee
315.00 is due

If not paid in 35 days:
300.00 assessment
45.00 late fees.
345.00 is due.

In your respective associations, does this continue to build? Say it goes past 60 days, do you ad another 10% of the assessment to the late fees. The way the law seems to be written, it's a one time fee. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

To give you a better idea of what we're battling, we have some resident that will wait 9 months and pay 900.00. I want them paying on time, or early. So, I'm looking for "motivation" to get these payments made either monthly, or quarterly as the documents require.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SheliaH on 02/01/2018 7:31 AM
I don't know how ours was originally set, but I think it was based in part on the association's costs in sending out late notices. By the time I left the board 4 years ago, it had increased to $50 or so. To keep things simple, we applied it for every month the person was late.

After 60 days, the account was on its way to the attorney for collection and then the homeowner was socked with the processing fees the association was charged for monitoring the account, so that was another $50 or so. After that, the attorneys fees and legal expenses would pile on. If the homeowner has returned checks, that was yet another fee based on what our bank charged.

You can do percentages, but I think flat fees are easier to deal with - when homeowners want an account statement, they can see exactly what was charged and when. It's also easier to drop the late fees (which we usually didn't do because people rarely had a good reason). For me, late fees should be a deterrent - it's not about gouging people, but giving them a reason to take steps to ensure they weren't late, such as automatic deductions from their bank account. Don't want to pay a fee you think is "too high?" Pay your bloody assessment in full and on time!

I need to find an attorney for collections. The one we went and talked to did not seem like he wanted the job. Any suggestion on what TYPE of attorney to look for?

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
The attorneys we use for our clients have POA specialized practices and include collections in the services they offer. So, if you have access to a POA attorney, ask him or her.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasM6 on 02/01/2018 10:44 AM
Example:

Assessment is 300.00 per quarter. Late fee is 5% after 15 days late, and 10% after 30 days.

If not paid in 16 days:
300.00 assessment
15.00 late fee
315.00 is due

If not paid in 35 days:
300.00 assessment
45.00 late fees.
345.00 is due.

In your respective associations, does this continue to build? Say it goes past 60 days, do you ad another 10% of the assessment to the late fees. The way the law seems to be written, it's a one time fee. Unless I'm reading it wrong.

To give you a better idea of what we're battling, we have some resident that will wait 9 months and pay 900.00. I want them paying on time, or early. So, I'm looking for "motivation" to get these payments made either monthly, or quarterly as the documents require.


NOPE, follow the law.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
When I joined the board, the attorney we had at the time was good but fairly conservative in what he did regarding collections - it wasn't that he didn't like it, but I think stuff like rule enforcement and amending the documents was more his speed. Eventually, we switched to another firm where our attorney specialized in HOA collections (his family ran a collection agency and we worked together when he was a law clerk - I referred his firm, but then stayed out of the final consideration and vote to ensure there was no possible conflict of interest, although there really wasn't one).

To begin, I think the collections attorney should have EXPERIENCE in handling HOA collection cases, because there are nuances in that type of collections vs. actions against people who don't pay off their credit cards. That's why you really need to ask for references and CHECK them. I also I also like attorneys who are willing to teach and explain things in plain English so the board will understand why a certain action is being recommended or not - they have the final say anyway, so why not make an informed decision. Your attorney should be willing to help you review your collection policy from time to time so it lines up with state and federal law and you've tweaked, added or eliminate tactics that just don't work. Ideally, your policy will stop delinquences early and often before you go to the attorney and spend bunches of money with nothing to show for it.

Speaking of money, get someone who'll provide a fee schedule, so you can make a decent estimate on how much this will cost the association and when you get the bills, they should be itemized. Our attorney was fairly liberal with answering quick questions on specific accounts, but you need to know if you get billed everytime there's a phone call or email - you might consider looking for someone who will give you a certain number of hours at no cost and then you can better decide when to contact the attorney (emails may turn out to be cheaper than a phone call).

Our attorney also had a website for clients so you could check on what was going on in specific cases. Although our attorney sent that information to our property manager for the management report, as treasurer, I found it useful to check the website to get the very latest information and present that during the meeting. That way if something needed to be done relatively quickly, we could tell our property manager and it was taken care of the next day instead of waiting a day or two before the attorney contacted her, then she contact me or the president, update the attorney and so on.

Finally, ask about skip tracing - some attorneys do this in-house, others hire someone - it doesn't matter how it's done, but how effective it is. The attorney can tell you what he or she will need at a minimum, and you might be able to set up some in house protocols with your property manager to gather that information in advance. And while they're doing that, please be sure your attorney is well versed in federal and state laws like the fair debt collection act and fair credit reporting act - you don't want someone doing something that'll get you in trouble with your local attorney general's office or the FTC (fines for violating federal laws like the fair credit reporting act are really hefty).

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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