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FL. Authority to enter

Started by JasonB13 • 26 replies • 1052 views

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JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:

We have a unit owner doing illegal construction (required permits not obtained) and the corrupt property manager won't let the code officer into the unit.

1) Are CAMs allowed to enter a unit for suspected illegal construction? Its very loud and obvious.
2) Would a CAM require permission from the owner, who is not currently living in the gutted unit?
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Sounds like a condo, yes? Are you on the board, Jason?

Your CC&Rs (AKA: covenants, declaration, restrictions) will say under what circumstances the HOA or its agents may enter condos. Ours, for example, require that we give the Owner 24 hours notice (unless an emergency). What do yours say?

Why is the board of directors doing nothing about this? Or your ARC? Unauthorized construction in condos can be very dangerous to the integrity of the building's structure, not to mention plumbing and electrical issues!

FL condo law may very well have something in this topic. What does it say??
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
You didn't say how you know there are no permits for this owner to do whatever he/she is doing, but if you do know, have you tried contacting the agency that issues these permits? If so, I would think it should be able to send someone out to investigate and then issue an immediate cease and desist order until all this is sorted out.

By the way, if the property manager is "corrupt," he/she gets away with it because the HOA BOARD is allowing it (it's supposed to be providing direction to the property manager who shouldn't be doing anything without board authorization). As Kerry suggested, has anyone talked to the board about all this? If so, what was the response - and why haven't you and your neighbors rallied together to get rid of them?
If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Because permits are public record. A code compliance report was filed but the property manager has stonewalled (and apparently lied) about it. Code compliance reports are also public record.

There's nothing special in our docs, so standard laws apply. Which is why I specified FL in the subject
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Yes, the board is corrupt also.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
If permits have not been obtained, reporting such will have the construction stop until the proper permits are obtained.

You have to make the phone call.
Don't expect the Association to do it for you.
You have to take that responsibility.
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
It's been done. But if the building manager won't allow the code compliance officer into the unit, then nothing will happen.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Is this a condo, Jason??? Are you on the board????
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I find it hard to believe the code person can't enter the property. They have the authority as a city official. The few reasons I can think they have not entered is that have not found anything justifying inspection. They need to go to court for some kind of injunction process. They may need to secure police escort. Otherwise, I find that denying access to the unit that does not have proper license for construction a little hard to believe.
Former HOA President
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Police can't enter a residence without a warrant so why should a "city official"? Unless the city is in Cuba. If they can't see a violation, then can't enter
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I've dealt with the code people before. If there are no license to do this work filed and they see construction, would that not be seeing a violation?
Former HOA President
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Two words- Welfare check.

If the police are asked to do a welfare check of the residents and they do not answer the door, they will breach.

Not sure if that helps you or not, but it answers how the police can enter.

And once again, Melissa is off, way off. Code enforcement officers cannot enter the property, neither can "city officials".

Not sure what's going on, but please keep us informed.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/29/2018 4:33 PM
I've dealt with the code people before. If there are no license to do this work filed and they see construction, would that not be seeing a violation?

That would be a building inspector's realm, not code compliance. At least that's how it's done in my neck of the woods.
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
That's why I asked for someone in FL.

In a high rise, how could a code officer "see" a violation in a unit on the 15th floor from the lobby?
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 01/29/2018 4:24 PM
Police can't enter a residence without a warrant so why should a "city official"? Unless the city is in Cuba. If they can't see a violation, then can't enter

You are right! I'm a retired cop and I know this subject very well. The 4th Amendment applies to the government, not just police. There are exceptions to the search warrant rule but it usually requires consent or an emergency.

Using a ruse such as a welfare check would be a crime and if the manager let the code enforcement officer in, he would be acting as an agent of the government, which would require a search warrant. Of course if there is probable cause of a violation of the law, the code enforcement officer could get a warrant but just hearing what sounds like something being built would not cut it.

If the manager has authority to go in, than he could report what he sees to the code enforcement officer.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Well then the building inspector is the one to go in then. If they need a POC to let them in the building, why not volunteer? Seems you need to go to the source which is the city to enforce/inspect the situation.

It's unclear what exactly illegal work is being done? If you cant' see it either, then how do you know it's illegal?
Former HOA President
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Do you have security on site? Is the owner bringing building materials up to his unit? do you have a freight elevator?

Sounds like the BOD and the CM don't want to do their jobs. because if they did they can cut off access the the above mentioned amenities.

The only thing a unit owner can do that is adjacent to this unit is file a noise or nuisance complaint with the police, if the nuisance persist then
the police can enter.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Again, Jason: what do your CC&Rs say about WHO may enter a condo unit and under what conditions???
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/29/2018 5:04 PM

It's unclear what exactly illegal work is being done? If you cant' see it either, then how do you know it's illegal?

Correct. Construction debri and no permit does not equal illegal construction. In my area, one could rip up and replace in kind kitchen cabinets, toilets, sinks, doors, appliances, hot water tank, finished flooring and underlayment and wall coverings. That would make a pile of debri, but no permit would be required. The allowed scope without a permit will vary with locality.
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
There's no specific wording. There are laws in Florida, which is why I tend to ignore people from other states.
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
Because we know what's legal in our area and permits are public records. It's not illegal. It's un-permitted. The building rules and regulations require that all permits be files with the building before construction can begin. Permits in sure that the work is inspected. Uninspected work can damage the building.

Any electrical, plumbing, structural work or demolition requires a permit. We know the place has been gutted.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Does it not get inspected when it's being put back together again? Do you need a demolition permit? Last time I built a house, they did not inspect any of the plumbing/electrical till that was actually installed....
Former HOA President
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 01/30/2018 3:32 PM
There's no specific wording. There are laws in Florida, which is why I tend to ignore people from other states.

Then maybe you should have posted on a Florida HOA website
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 01/30/2018 3:35 PM
Because we know what's legal in our area and permits are public records. It's not illegal. It's un-permitted. The building rules and regulations require that all permits be files with the building before construction can begin.

You're talking in absolute circles. You know what legal, but the issue is un-permitted work. The authority for building codes is vested in law, and the codes are adopted as law, hence it is a matter of legality.

Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 01/30/2018 3:35 PM
Permits in sure that the work is inspected. Uninspected work can damage the building.

Work done incorrectly, wether with a permit or not, and wether inspected or not, can damage a building

Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 01/30/2018 3:35 PM

Any electrical, plumbing, structural work or demolition requires a permit. We know the place has been gutted.


That blanket statement is absolutely incorrect anywhere in the US. By that reasoning, a new aerator or washer on a faucet, replacing a worn sink trap - or even removing said trap to clean out the gunk, or putting in a new wax ring on a toilet all require a trip to the building department, and a visit by the inspector. I think you need to brush up on the codes. The law is very specific what work requires a permit. You imply that the unit is on the 15th floor, and is gutted. What does that really mean? Interior walls torn down? Or just flooring and wall coverings gone? One would clearly require a permit and one would not.
MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 01/29/2018 4:33 PM
I've dealt with the code people before. If there are no license to do this work filed and they see construction, would that not be seeing a violation?

No. They must see work that requires a permit being done. A pile of old carpet, a plumber on a service call and a sparky replacing three worn out snap switches with new doesn't mean that unpermitted work is being done. It means work is being done, but there is no evidence that unpermitted work is being done.
JasonB13 (Florida)
Posts: 37
Posted:
@MarkM31

why can't you just accept that I know what work requires a permit rather than nit-picking like some child? Changing a washer. All work doesn't require a permit, and changing a washer is not "plumbing" any more than screwing in a light bulb (or even changing a fixture on existing wiring) is "electrical". I get it. So move on please.

A demolition requires a permit.

It's a moot issue now as we've determined that the PM has the right to enter for an inspection.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 02/01/2018 4:19 PM

why can't you just accept that I know what work requires a permit rather than nit-picking like some child? Changing a washer. All work doesn't require a permit, and changing a washer is not "plumbing" any more than screwing in a light bulb (or even changing a fixture on existing wiring) is "electrical". I get it.


First you said that all work requires at permit, now it doesn't. M.kay....

Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 02/01/2018 4:19 PM

So move on please.


No thank you

Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 02/01/2018 4:19 PM

A demolition requires a permit.

I doubt that, it is probably fully dependant on the scope of work, which you refuse to describe except in the broadest terms

Quote:
Posted By JasonB13 on 02/01/2018 4:19 PM

It's a moot issue now as we've determined that the PM has the right to enter for an inspection.


Who's we, and how was this determined. Almost certainly the PM has no right to do anything. The board might have a right, but not any kind of carte blanche.

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