Is this a violation of the community members rights?

Started by YelenaG • 32 replies • 1217 views

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YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

We have four ash trees with emerald ash borer that need to be removed. This plan was discussed at the community meeting last month. The property manager said that this will involve communication with our electrical company PEPCO since one of the trees is close to the lines. Today we have received a note that PEPCO is cutting electricity for 8 consecutive hours in the coldest December day (29/19oF). This has neither been discussed at the meeting, nor were we warned about such a possibility. My Mom is 98 years old and is staying at home. We both work from home and need our computers. Not only this interferes with our job, but it also put a high risk for my Mom to get sick. Is this a basis for at least some legal actions against the property management?

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

How much of a notice did they give you?

If the tree is that close to the power lines then cutting it down now could prevent some real bad issues in the future.

I suggest you go stay with a friend or maybe rent a motel room if possible.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

And the problem is reality? You want the tree removed and it's near power lines... The power has to be turned off. Or do you want the risk of a fire or electrocution of people? Your mother will survive in the cold. It's 8 hours and you have blankets. It's also possible to rent a hotel or visit a friend.

I can't feel sorry for you. Had a tree limb fall down on a power line. Spent a week in 100 plus degree weather with no power and 4 dogs. Whole electrical system had to be replaced before they would return my power line back to my house.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Living in a high rise HOA, we've had all of our water shut off for 8 hours a day twice recently. These things happen and your power company must think it's important to take out that tree now rather than wait.

The property manager does what your Board of directors instruct, so the order is from the power company via the PM to you. But I don't think the shut-off is illegal.

If finances are a problem, visiting the library and use their computers for a good part of the day might work. Or a senior center.

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

I would communicate with your manager first and then your board members and voice your concerns. Talk to your neighbors and get them to do the same. Even without medical issues, this is a big inconvenience for everyone. Your manager works for the HOA so if he is not responsive, contact each member of the board.

Obviously, if this is an emergency then they have no choice but if they had the opportunity to schedule it and give notice, it doesn't sound like an emergency. It seems to me they could trim the trees to avoid immediate problems and take the trees down in the spring.

I'm not an attorney but I know generally you have to show damages to sue someone. My guess is that if this is necessary and they gave you notice, you would probably not have any legal action.

On another note, I am amazed how many people respond to legitimate questions by saying just bend over and take it.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Thank you guys, it is really interesting to see all different opinions on the issue. In fact we do have problems with our management company, and it looks like they take their interests over ours. The trees were problematic for more than a year. It became clear in the spring and summer that they have problems - so if the management wanted it could have raised this concern during that time. I cannot understand why it had to take so long and why the scheduled time comes on the coldest day of December. They could have worked around it.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

As Ben suggests, and I do too, the management company (MC) does what the Board instructs them to do. So you could, as Ben suggests, see if the Board will listen to you & other neighbors about moving the date to the spring.

But maybe it just isn't safe to do so?

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By YelenaG on 12/08/2017 3:30 PM
We have four ash trees with emerald ash borer that need to be removed. This plan was discussed at the community meeting last month. The property manager said that this will involve communication with our electrical company PEPCO since one of the trees is close to the lines. Today we have received a note that PEPCO is cutting electricity for 8 consecutive hours in the coldest December day (29/19oF). This has neither been discussed at the meeting, nor were we warned about such a possibility. My Mom is 98 years old and is staying at home. We both work from home and need our computers. Not only this interferes with our job, but it also put a high risk for my Mom to get sick. Is this a basis for at least some legal actions against the property management?

The Electrical Company PEPCO is the entity making the decision to cut power for X amount of time ... therefore, your issue is with your electrical company and NOT with your HOA.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I am not sure that the Board was aware of cutting off power for 8 hours. I will talk with them. Unfortunately there are too many things going on behind our back. And that's what I would love to change in our community.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

I am very new here, so am not quite sure how to quote the right excerpt from the comments.

As for the PEPCO - they are doing this certainly on agreement with our property management.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

In fact, I am pretty sure I will come with other and maybe more serious questions regarding distribution of rights, duties and responsibilities between community members, the Board and our property management company. I hope we will survive next Wednesday; however, such disregard of community members needs by the property management is a warning, to my understanding.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I don't see where this is a rights thing at all. It's just a consequence of your request to have the tree removed. The power company determined if going to remove this tree, the power has to be removed. The HOA or MC isn't doing anything against you. Matter of fact, they are doing something FOR you.

Considering in some weather conditions power can go out for hours without notice Atleast you can plan ahead for this one. You are getting a notification ahead of time. The tree is being removed at HOA expense. Most of us here would call you EXTREMELY lucky and fortunate the HOA is taking this action. It just happens to be winter.

Few weeks ago, I had a tree fall onto my neighbor's house. The insurance claim was several thousand dollars. So tree removal is very important and dangerous. Let these people do their work. They are working in the coldest day of the year themselves. Ever think of that?

Former HOA President

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Melissa, thank you for your answer, but I do not see your point. I am not questioning the necessity of removing the trees. I am talking about the timing of this removal. I already said that it was not a new problem. The infected trees are not getting rotten within weeks. It takes at least several months. These are not "our" trees, they actually are on the community property. I am not quite sure what you mean by saying "you are EXTREMELY lucky and fortunate the HOA is taking this action". Who "you"? And why we "are lucky"? We are paying our fees for this type of job. And - no, I personally do not feel myself EXTREMELY lucky to have no electricity for 8 hours in the cold December day with my old Mom and inability to work, when this could have been done at least a month ago. Sorry.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Most HOA's don't take such swift action or take on this type of expense. It's usually a long drawn out process. Considering that the money is coming from the HOA budget, some members may not like it.

You mentioned the trees are not yours but on common property. Well there is your answer. They don't have to do it for your convenience or schedule. It's their tree. You just brought it to their attention to take care of. So that's what they are doing. It's their money they are spending on a tree they own. Did not know they needed to get your approval to do their work.

Sorry but maybe I am the only one here who is not going to think the HOA is violating your "rights" by making this inconvenience for you. You asked for them to remove the tree. They are. It's going to be on their terms NOT yours. You got adequate notification.

Having gone through a week without power because of a tree, don't see 1 day being that big of a deal. You have plenty of options. You may even have a "hotspot" on your phones and battery in your laptops. There are libraries and other resources for power/internet options. If you and your family can't find a safe place in an emergency then you best get a plan together. 8 hours without power? That's not that big of a deal even in the winter. Try a week after tornados where everywhere within an hour drive of your home is out.

Former HOA President

CyrstalB (Maryland)
Posts: 457

Posted:

Respectfully, what are the "rights" that you feel are being violated? In today's society the term, "rights" is misused on a daily basis. So for my education, please explain what right is being violated.

For some perspective you should consider the power situation in Puerto Rico, where it will take six months to get their power back. Perhaps this is the reason Pepco didn't get to your HOA's bidding until now? Because they sent extra personnel to the areas in our country who lost power from the Hurricanes? And for day's no less?

Your should be on your knees in thanks that Pepco gave you notice to find and put in place alternatives to whatever your personal situation is. This is 2017, and there are many options available to you to get you and your family through only EIGHT scheduled hours of no power.

1. Stop taking this personally and focus on the solution instead of what you perceive as a violation of one's rights.
2. Call your county's Department of Community Services for Senior Day Care options.
3. Call your Boss and discuss options relevant to whatever it is you do when working at home.
4. Get a seat or office on your HOA's Board of Directors so that you can gain further understanding as to the process of getting things done when dealing with a utility as large as Pepco.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

With the two last replies I think maybe I just got on the wrong site. "We" are a community of 26 townhouses. We have the Board of three people and we have the property management company. That's it. "We" as a family did not ask anybody for anything. We even do not see these trees, since they are on the opposite side of our community behind the houses. To my understanding, removing the trees was a common decision of the Board and the property management. There was no any emergency situation here. The trees could have been removed two months ago. All those references to emergency situations and natural disasters have nothing to do with our situation. While I appreciate your responses, I do not think that they are relevant to my question.

However, now I really think that we do not belong to any HOA. Am I in the wrong place?

BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273

Posted:

There may be no actual right being violated here but I find it hard to believe that so many people have no problem with losing your power for 8 hours in freezing temperatures, if it is unnecessary. IF this is not an emergency and they can postpone cutting the power to a time when it is more convenient for their members, then they should do so.

The board and management company are there to act in the best interests of the owners. Everything they do should include the consideration of how it will affect the HOA members.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Yelena

I understand your concern about not having power for eight hours during freezing temperatures. And, another time of year may be a better option, if there is an option.

However, I saw on the news last evening a winter storm is headed your way, it is likely already upon you. Many times trees go down in storms, often taking power lines with them. Since your power is apparently going to be taken out of service while the trees are removed, one or more of the trees is close enough to the power lines to have the potential to damage the lines should a tree go down.

I would suggest to you that an eight hour planned power outage is preferable to an emergency power outage due to storm damage, of which you will have no notice, and which may last longer, perhaps much longer than the eight hours of which you have been informed.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

I am familiar with those kind of trees. Believe they are known to be infected with a disease. Hence why it is advisable to remove them. The HOA maybe saving some money doing the work now while the tree companies are slow in business. I also know from first hand experience of having a tree fall onto a house that was diseased. Our HOA we have Southern Pines. Those trees grow well over 50 feet high. We had a arborist come and exam those trees. It was determined they had pine beetle disease and were at a risk of falling. We had a cold snap and things started to thaw. It turns out the only thing holding 1 tree together was the frozen water inside. It melted and the tree crashed down into the dining room of one house. We had to pay out money for the cleanup. The home damage went to the homeowners insurance.

So I see clearly why your HOA is taking this action. They most likely did hire an expert before making this decision. It also takes awhile to make decisions in a HOA and to get the money. Believe me, these trees are extremely dangerous. Think the HOA is doing the right thing to eliminate that risk. How would you feel if someone was killed because of these trees? It is completely a real risk.

Again no rights violated here. Instead just see only protection of the members and reducing their risk to life, limb, and property here. 8 hours without power isn't that big of a deal. No one gets sick from cold. It's viruses or bacteria that makes one sick.

Former HOA President

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

Based on your quote, Yelena, it does sound like you do live in an HOA: "I am pretty sure I will come with other and maybe more serious questions regarding distribution of rights, duties and responsibilities between community members, the Board and our property management company."

To discuss your above, start a new thread. But this forum won't be of any help unless we know what your HOA's governing documents say about the duties & responsibilities of your Board. In them, either in your bylaws or in your CC&Rs (AKA Covenants, declaration, restrictions), you probably will see that the Board can delegate certain duties to an MC. So you will need to read them. You also will want to read the contract between your MC & your Association to see what the MC's duties are. Most states permit homeowners to read executed contracts upon written request to the board or the management company

It sounds like your HOA comprises 26 THs and some common areas. It sounds like the trees are in this common area. You did attend a meetings when this was discussed, but no date was given at that time. Since then, PEPCO scheduled the removal.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Yelena,

Did the notice about losing electrical power state the reason?

Eight days seems excessive to cut down four trees (which can be cut down, or clear powerlines) in a day by a good crew. Therefore, I think the reason may be for something else.

To address your immediate concerns about the power, you may want to consider moving into a hotel or with friends/family for that time frame.

Is it a violation of rights?
I don't think so. As others have pointed out, the issue would be with the power company and not your Association.

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Tim, the outage is 8 hours, not 8 days.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

Thanks Bill.

That makes more sense.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,061

Posted:

If it's eight hours, the heat in the home should be fine. Unless the home hasn't been properly maintained and you still have single pane windows, the temp inside the home should only drop a few degrees.

If you require medical equipment that runs on electricity and this is your first time without electricity, then consider this a wake up call. You should to look into alternative power sources (batteries, generators, etc.) that can last 24 hours as power can go out at anytime.

If your overly concerned, use this time to go shopping, catch a movie or two, have a good meal at a restaurant, etc. The power should be back on when you return or shortly there after.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Guys, thank you very much for all your responses. After all, no matter what the outcome of this situation might be, I am glad it led me to your group. You seem to be a very nice and warm company!

Yes, we personally with my husband have issues with our property management company. These trees are just one example of basically not doing the job properly. As I said, the trees have been infected for at least a year. Therefore, if there was a concern with falling branches during winter months - they could have been taken down in the fall which we had for quite a long time regarding temperatures. This is just an example of a bad management.

I was too occupied with my own job to be actively involved in our small community business, but since now I am about to retire I really would love to straighten some things up.

We'll see how it goes. Thank you much for your input!

Yelena

BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217

Posted:

Yelena, please remember the management company acts at the direction of the Board.

While there may be MC issues, they cannot (or at least should not) act unilaterally. Do you know when the Board made the decision to remove the trees and directed the MC to proceed with the removal? We were faced with a tree removal issue with a client HOA, it took us two years to eliminate all the alternative suggestions made to the Board by property owners and by the Board members themselves in an attempt to avoid removing the trees. One of the alternatives was actually implemented even though the arborist told the board it would not work.

If you become more actively involved, you will likely find non-emergency projects move quite slowly, especially if competitive bids must be obtained. In the association in which we live and in those we manage, identifying contractors who meet association screening criteria (and who are available) is always a challenge, especially if the project involves something we have not dealt with previously.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

The Tortoise may occasionally beat the Hare

but

the Tortoise will always beat the typical BOD.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JanetB2 on 12/08/2017 7:28 PM

The Electrical Company PEPCO is the entity making the decision to cut power for X amount of time ... therefore, your issue is with your electrical company and NOT with your HOA.

Again ... this is potentially not your HOA’s issue. If the trees need to be removed and the Electrical Company agrees that they need to remove portions your HOA is then placed at the utility companies discretion on when they can schedule. If it is one tree it will not take 8 hours, and they are potentially just allowing a full day even though will only be down potentially an hour or two for the one tree. This is potentially a mountain being made out of a mole hill.

As Tim noted go shopping, to the movie, out to lunch, etc. and when you return home everything will be done and back to business as usual.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Thank you, Bill. Yes, this is in my plans - to get acquainted myself with our by-laws, which were written like 50 years ago. The problem is that we do not have a very active community, especially when we got a very energetic property manager who basically gradually shifted decision-making toward her company. It appears that everybody silently accepted this - although now we are paying almost 20% of our fees toward the service of the company which is not quite clear to me. However, you are right - this is a new topic. In any case, I am very glad I found your group, since I am sure I will have a lot of questions when become more involved in our community life.

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Jane, thank you, but I cannot leave my Mom in this cold and lifeless home all by herself!

I will share with her our suffering.

As to the PEPCO decision - this is quite interesting. I did not know that it might be them who scheduled the removal. My only question in this case to our Board and the property management company would be - why this could not have been done 2 months ago? However, we have what we have.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

You are stuck on this 2 months ago thing. It's not how things work when scheduling a big contracting job. We don't know when the original date of submittal for tree removal arrived. It can take months for such a decision to process. After all that and making sure the money is there, it's on the contractor's schedule. Which we don't know how long they are backed up for.

The HOA had to have gotten the request. They then have to decide if they can take on the project. Once that is decided then a contractor has to be found. Typically in our HOA we have to have 3 bids per project. The contractors have to licensed and insured. We also consult experts in the field to gather the best options and 2nd opinions. The money is also a factor as we may need a special assessment or even wait a month or two to have enough money saved up. We then decide on the right bid and schedule. Which in some conditions contractors can take weeks/months to schedule the job.

I am in the process of hiring a Tree contractor myself for difficult tree removal. The contractor I want to hire is backed up for 12 weeks! Considering how dangerous the tree they need to remove is, I am sure they are trying to take the fastest action possible. Which just so happened to coincide with this month.

Former HOA President

YelenaG (Maryland)
Posts: 11

Posted:

Hi Melissa, thank you for your response. It looks like there are several differences here between our situation and the one that you described. First of all, we are talking about a very small HOA, if that's what we are being 26 townhouses community. It should be easier to move things faster in smaller communities even with the big projects. I can tell you about my own experience with this particular issue on the tree removal, and you can tell me which potential obstacles I did not see in my interaction with the tree service companies.

Just to find out whether the estimate was proper I was looking through several tree service companies in our area, compared the references and e-mailed my request to several of them. I received an immediate response from six out of eight. This means that we have quite a competitive area for the tree service companies in our area. Then I made an arrangement for an estimate with one of them. They did this within 5 days - and the cost was about the same, as we were told at the meeting. The company was licensed and certified. However, they were ready to start the job and make an arrangement with PEPCO. Everything was done quite fast. I am not sure, why there should be such a lengthy procedure for such a job as a tree removal. While it is clear that it is not a trivial job especially with our over 100 years old ash tree, it is still not a construction project.

One more thing regarding biding. Not all companies participate in biding. To my understanding this is an additional burden to some of them. There are good companies which do not do this. Therefore, of our management is using only those who participate in this, they narrow down the number of potential contractors. Why?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By YelenaG on 12/10/2017 1:47 PM
Hi Melissa, thank you for your response. It looks like there are several differences here between our situation and the one that you described. First of all, we are talking about a very small HOA, if that's what we are being 26 townhouses community. It should be easier to move things faster in smaller communities even with the big projects. I can tell you about my own experience with this particular issue on the tree removal, and you can tell me which potential obstacles I did not see in my interaction with the tree service companies.

Just to find out whether the estimate was proper I was looking through several tree service companies in our area, compared the references and e-mailed my request to several of them. I received an immediate response from six out of eight. This means that we have quite a competitive area for the tree service companies in our area. Then I made an arrangement for an estimate with one of them. They did this within 5 days - and the cost was about the same, as we were told at the meeting. The company was licensed and certified. However, they were ready to start the job and make an arrangement with PEPCO. Everything was done quite fast. I am not sure, why there should be such a lengthy procedure for such a job as a tree removal. While it is clear that it is not a trivial job especially with our over 100 years old ash tree, it is still not a construction project.

One more thing regarding biding. Not all companies participate in biding. To my understanding this is an additional burden to some of them. There are good companies which do not do this. Therefore, of our management is using only those who participate in this, they narrow down the number of potential contractors. Why?

There could be a number of reasons for the delay, as some have mentioned. The Board may have been waiting on the electric company, the companies that sent in bids may have had to get other work completed before they could get to your community, etc. You don't say if you discussed any of this with your board - if not, why not ask them? I realize it's a pain to lose a day's work to get this done, but better that than the work not being done properly and causing even more problems.

By the way, I see nothing wrong with collecting bids - the more expensive the job, the more sense it makes. The board also needs to do its due diligence in making sure the people doing the work are licensed and bonded, if appropriate, review the contract or invoice BEFORE signing them and checking references. Remember, this isn't just your share of assessments at work, it's everyone's money and the Board's duty is to ensure all money spent is done in a prudent manner. It's probably true some companies don't want to go through the trouble of sending bids - that's a business decision they make, just as it's the Board's business decision to review the bids to select the one that's best for the association's resources. Do what you want with your own money as quickly or as slowly as you want - if you mess up that's on you, but if the Board messes up, everyone, including you, pays the price

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

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