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DavidN10 (Ohio)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Hello all,

Our HOA declarations include a statement that all commercial businesses must close by 11pm every night. Several years ago, a new owner purchased a commercial business in order to open a bar, but "did not realize" that declaration was in place. Ever since, it's been a fight to get the hours extended to either 1am or 2am every night rather than 11pm.

The declarations also state that any changes to the declarations require a 75% vote in order to pass. We've voted FOUR times on this:

2013: 9-8 (52%, fail)
2014: 7-11 (38%, fail)
2015: 11-7 (61%, fail)
2017: 11-5 (69%, fail)

(Those numbers don't always add up to 18, because sometimes we have had 1-2 delinquent units ineligible to vote.)

I understand the 75% requirement is in order to protect the HOA from itself in the short term. But at what point are we shooting ourselves in the foot over the long term?? Our declarations were written in 2005, at a time when there was a lot of crime and not a lot of businesses in our area. That is changing rapidly. We're on a corner...there's not a lot of room for "night life" on the East-West street, but the North-South street is primed to explode over the next 5-10 years. FOUR new "night life" businesses have opened within TWO blocks of us, in the last two years, in locations where there was previously nothing at all.

For now we seem to be "stuck" in this position where a majority wants to allow this bylaw change, but the remaining 5 sticklers can continue to obstruct the situation indefinitely. Two of them don't even live in the building, and I wonder what their motivation is to vote "no," because it's my understanding that bars are generally good for property value on a corner where drug dealers and prostitutes would otherwise be present.

The board (who voted 3-2 in favor of the measure)

Is there a way to change the 11pm declaration, or suspend it indefinitely, without a 75% vote? Or do we need to just wait until the bar owner CAN pass the 75% vote?

Thanks in advance!
~David
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Welcome to the Forum ...

Your State Law for HOA (single family) also notes 75% unless otherwise specified in declaration or bylaws. If you fall under Condo statute it may or may not be different.

5312.05 Amendments to declaration or bylaws.
(A) Unless otherwise specified in the declaration or bylaws, the owners may amend the declaration and bylaws by the consent of seventy-five per cent of the owners, either in writing or in a meeting called for that purpose. No amendment to the declaration or bylaws is effective until filed in the office of the county recorder.

(B) A vote to terminate the applicability of the declaration and to dissolve the planned community requires the unanimous consent of owners.

My question would be where does it state that anyone delinquent is not allowed to vote on a change which could be attached to their property title??? Personally it would be a cold day down below before anything would be attached to my property title (which amendment would require) when I have been denied the right to say Yes or No. It is one thing to deny running for BOD or voting for BOD positions in the HOA and another to file legal documents against anyone’s Property Title. You need to be careful and I would recommend asking your HOA attorney this question.

Could those couple of votes made a difference???
DavidN10 (Ohio)
Posts: 2
Posted:
Thanks for your response! That is a good concern and I don't have a legal answer, but our bylaws grant the association the discretion to "suspend voting rights of the Owner during any period of delinquency." We apply that at delinquencies of 90+ days, which is the same time we apply a lien on the unit, send it to collections, start thinking about foreclosure, etc. Essentially we give the owner the maximum reasonable time that we keep track of, 90 days, before they incur every penalty available. This has been effective in keeping "pseudo-responsible" owners "actually responsible," and nothing we do to "irresponsible" owners matters at all so there's no reason to wait longer than 90 days.

And devil's advocate on this -- people with 90+ day delinquencies aren't just behind on their bills and hurting their credit. Delinquent units impact an HOA's ability to take a loan, the likelihood a lender will give a loan to purchase a unit in that building, the property value of the building, etc. Why should delinquent unit owners' property titles be protected from harm, when they are actively harming everyone else's?

Anyway, with two delinquencies we needed 12/16 votes to get 75%, and without, we needed 14/18. *Given the outcome,* there's nothing those two votes could have done to impact the outcome of the vote.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
75% of the TOTAL MEMBERSHIP voting 'aye' to amend is required.

'Eligibility' only applies to 'corporate issues' such as bylaws or director elections.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
..... but our bylaws grant the association .....


The bylaws only apply to corporate activity NOT to the 'base contract' a/k/a CCRs.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidN10 on 12/05/2017 12:11 PM
For now we seem to be "stuck" in this position where a majority wants to allow this bylaw change, but the remaining 5 sticklers can continue to obstruct the situation indefinitely.

As is their right. They're not in favor of the change and they vote against it. The end.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaininyourA on 12/05/2017 2:26 PM
The bylaws only apply to corporate activity NOT to the 'base contract' a/k/a CCRs.

In an ideal world, yes, but it depends on the actual wording.
FredS7 (Arizona)
Posts: 927
Posted:
Based on the trend you should be able to get this passed in 2018.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidN10 on 12/05/2017 12:11 PM

(Those numbers don't always add up to 18, because sometimes we have had 1-2 delinquent units ineligible to vote.)

Not being eligible to vote in elections and not being eligible to vote to amend the governing documents, in my opinion, are two different things.

Personally, I don't think an Association can, or should, prohibit any member from voting in amending the governing documents.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Lowering the % requirement is meant for LARGE associations, 200 plus or so, not for smaller or 18 unit HOA's. You would need 75% of the 18 without any outside intervention. Owners who are delinquent should be able to vote on something that may affect their contract!
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
David- Your reading it wrong. I'm sure it says something close to....The affirmative vote of not less than 75% of the owners is required to amend the covenants.." It doesn't matter if they are delinquent or not, you need their vote to change the covenants. Elections and the other mundane elections they can be barred from.

Fred- I see what you did there....
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By FredS7 on 12/05/2017 3:22 PM
Based on the trend you should be able to get this passed in 2018.


Based on the numbers, 2019 at the earliest, maybe 2020 or 2021, if they don't go backwards.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Past voting patterns are not a reliable predictor of future votes. Especially if there is any turnover of ownership.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
So are you all saying that every owner should be allowed to vote on a Covenant/Declaration change even if delinquent? I say yes, all are allowed to vote on a Covenant change

If so, they will need 14 of the 18 (75% of 18 is 13.5 so it rounds to 14) to approve.

A BOD of 5 at 3 to 2 is only 60% approving so it appears most are against such a change.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/05/2017 6:33 PM
So are you all saying that every owner should be allowed to vote on a Covenant/Declaration change even if delinquent? I say yes, all are allowed to vote on a Covenant change

If so, they will need 14 of the 18 (75% of 18 is 13.5 so it rounds to 14) to approve.


DITTO DITTO DITTO
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/05/2017 6:33 PM
So are you all saying that every owner should be allowed to vote on a Covenant/Declaration change even if delinquent? I say yes, all are allowed to vote on a Covenant change

I also agree all should be allowed for covenant change because that document is attached to the their Property Title. To not allow an owner a vote regarding items which must be filed with the County Records and attached to the Property Title could potentially in many states violate possible Real Estate Statues. If it potentially would in my state there is high probability would in others.

If so, they will need 14 of the 18 (75% of 18 is 13.5 so it rounds to 14) to approve.

A BOD of 5 at 3 to 2 is only 60% approving so it appears most are against such a change. BOD votes are not applicable ... BOD cannot ammend the CCR’s in any state I am aware of ...

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JanetB2 on 12/05/2017 7:36 PM
Posted By JohnC46 on 12/05/2017 6:33 PM
So are you all saying that every owner should be allowed to vote on a Covenant/Declaration change even if delinquent? I say yes, all are allowed to vote on a Covenant change

I also agree all should be allowed for covenant change because that document is attached to the their Property Title. To not allow an owner a vote regarding items which must be filed with the County Records and attached to the Property Title could potentially in many states violate possible Real Estate Statues. If it potentially would in my state there is high probability would in others.

If so, they will need 14 of the 18 (75% of 18 is 13.5 so it rounds to 14) to approve.

A BOD of 5 at 3 to 2 is only 60% approving so it appears most are against such a change. BOD votes are not applicable ... BOD cannot ammend the CCR’s in any state I am aware of ...


His point was that 60% of the Board moved the amendment or change forward so that the owners could vote.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DavidN10 on 12/05/2017 2:23 PM
Thanks for your response! That is a good concern and I don't have a legal answer, but our bylaws grant the association the discretion to "suspend voting rights of the Owner during any period of delinquency." We apply that at delinquencies of 90+ days, which is the same time we apply a lien on the unit, send it to collections, start thinking about foreclosure, etc. Essentially we give the owner the maximum reasonable time that we keep track of, 90 days, before they incur every penalty available. This has been effective in keeping "pseudo-responsible" owners "actually responsible," and nothing we do to "irresponsible" owners matters at all so there's no reason to wait longer than 90 days.

And devil's advocate on this -- people with 90+ day delinquencies aren't just behind on their bills and hurting their credit. Delinquent units impact an HOA's ability to take a loan, the likelihood a lender will give a loan to purchase a unit in that building, the property value of the building, etc. Why should delinquent unit owners' property titles be protected from harm, when they are actively harming everyone else's?

Anyway, with two delinquencies we needed 12/16 votes to get 75%, and without, we needed 14/18. *Given the outcome,* there's nothing those two votes could have done to impact the outcome of the vote.


As some have already noted ... the By-Laws are in place to govern the Corporation entity and Board of Directors. The homeowners are mostly governed by what is stated in the CCR’s (as that document is what is filed against their Property Titles) and the State Laws. If you were in my state and filed against my Property Title and denied me the right to vote it would potentially violate real estate fraud laws. That is why I suggested you need to discuss with your HOA attorney regarding denying votes for CCR Amendments.

I understand your concern which many of us in HOA’s experience with regard to delinquent assessments. However, sometimes there are circumstances beyond an owner’s control which can contribute to their delinquency ... while on other hand you have others who are always late no matter what. However, there is still a big difference between denying them the right to vote for BOD positions vs filing legal documents against their Property Title without their proper vote / consent. One is potentially legal while the other in some states could be considered fraud ... and is best to not to cross that line.

It appears each time you try that you are getting closer to your goal of passing. Getting a high percentage is possible ... because in my HOA we had 100% agreement when we amended our CCR’s this year. We have just a few more owners than your association. Yes it took discussions with all owners answering their concerns prior to our annual meeting, but it shows that high percentage agreement is possible. Open and honest discussion is the best policy.
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
The purpose of requiring a super-majority to change CC&Rs is to protect the individual owners, not the HOA. The principle is that owners buy property knowing the restrictions and a mere 51% of the owners should not be able to impose their will over the other 49%. To me, the CC&Rs are like a constitution, and shouldn't be easy to change.

I have a little sympathy for people excited over buying a new home not realizing there are deed restrictions but not for a business person. There is really no excuse for him not knowing.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
ditto Ben

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