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SusanF8 (South Carolina)
Posts: 1
Posted:
We have a lot of great people in our community that are willing to help with small repairs. Our HOA says that we can't, cause if someone got hurt they could sue us. So we use a list of vendors from the HOA, which we know they get a %. Is there something we can do to use the talented people that live here, to help keep costs down?
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanF8 on 12/03/2017 6:39 AM
We have a lot of great people in our community that are willing to help with small repairs. Our HOA says that we can't, cause if someone got hurt they could sue us. So we use a list of vendors from the HOA, which we know they get a %. Is there something we can do to use the talented people that live here, to help keep costs down?

Yes. Get those talented people licensed, bonded, and insured. Unless one has all 3, they will never be used in my HOA.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanF8 on 12/03/2017 6:39 AM
We have a lot of great people in our community that are willing to help with small repairs. Our HOA says that we can't, cause if someone got hurt they could sue us. So we use a list of vendors from the HOA, which we know they get a %. Is there something we can do to use the talented people that live here, to help keep costs down?


I think promoting volunteerism is a great thing. At my former HOA, volunteers organized "clean your yard and house" days, arranging for pickup trucks to take people's no-longer-wanted household items and yard debris to the dump. The landscaper donated some time. The property manager donated iced soda and spring water. Directors on the Board even got the City to pitch in with T-shirts saying "Keep [name of city] Beautiful" and opening the city dump for free to residents on these days.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
HOA's should use only licensed and insured contractors. The reason being is that the liability and bad work risk. Let's say that a member does some electrical work. That causes a spark and sends the clubhouse up in flames. That member can be then responsible for replacing that clubhouse. Now if an insured/licensed contractor does the work then that damage would fall under their insurance/license. That is the best difference to explain it.

Now I did have some "Volunteer days" which we did small repairs here and there. However, they were not jobs of "professionals" that would require a license. This is like painting, fixing walls, cleaning, planting, or other non-professional activities. If feel better, you may have a release form for those who do the work.

Every year before we open the pool we have volunteers come out and clean up the clubhouse and the pool chairs. We use Simple green for non-toxic reasons. The kids also participate. However, admittedly I am not without danger to myself. I was doing some prep work for a wall repair/paint. Slipped and sliced my finger/hand. Had to drive the kids back home while applying pressure to the wound. No stiches but did not go to doctor. Now if that had happened to someone else, we may have had to pay for their doctor visit and follow ups. That would be what a lawsuit would be for anyways.

So just weigh the risks and know your people. I am not against volunteers doing some repairs but understand the risks and liabilities. I also do Volunteer work for Habitat for Humanity. They don't cover you. You sign a release.

Former HOA President
LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanF8 on 12/03/2017 6:39 AM
We have a lot of great people in our community that are willing to help with small repairs. Our HOA says that we can't, cause if someone got hurt they could sue us. So we use a list of vendors from the HOA, which we know they get a %. Is there something we can do to use the talented people that live here, to help keep costs down?

In many states it is just not permissible because contractors need to be licensed, bonded and insured. People can do work on their own homes without those requirements, but
when it is in a situation that you mentioned. I know you want to save the community money, but in todays litigious society, hire a licensed contractor, even if it is a community clean up picking up trash.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanF8 on 12/03/2017 6:39 AM
We have a lot of great people in our community that are willing to help with small repairs. Our HOA says that we can't, cause if someone got hurt they could sue us. So we use a list of vendors from the HOA, which we know they get a %. Is there something we can do to use the talented people that live here, to help keep costs down?

Who's using the "list of vendors from the HOA"? The HOA itself? Isn't that normal procedure?

Anyway, 20 years ago my HOA did what you suggest. They ditched a management company because the actual cost was much higher than they had anticipated. At the time, there were many pioneer homeowners willing to volunteer many hours of their time to help maintain the community. The HOA bought flowers and volunteers planted them outside the front wall of the community. Several men had chainsaws and volunteered to trim tree branches as needed. Many older homeowners here remember those "good old days" when everyone chipped in to keep the place looking good and keeping expenses down.

We would never allow such a thing today. It's all Rah Rah Volunteers until somebody gets hurt.
JudyM9 (Arizona)
Posts: 46
Posted:
We had a situation where skilled volunteers were allowed to donate labor. Then some members formed an in-house band which played during dinner sometimes and held dances. The club was paying the band. That got out and swiftly put an end to the use of any member volunteers.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanF8 on 12/03/2017 6:39 AM

So we use a list of vendors from the HOA, which we know they get a %.

If you have proof of kickbacks, provide it to the membership.

However, if you only think that the Board or an individual on the Board is getting a kickback and have zero proof, I would strongly recommend not making such accusations.

Regarding the use of volunteers -

Your Board is correct, if someone is hurt, they can sue the Association.
Using only licensed and insured contractors keeps the risk low to the members.

That said, we have used volunteers for various things that didn't provide too much risk.
We have used volunteers to pick up the common area, replace signage, paint curbs, etc.
However, the risk was still there if someone got hurt.

One way to keep costs down is for those talented people to volunteer to serve on the Board or committees. This way, their expertise can be used to validate proposals from licensed and insured contractors. They could even oversee the work to make sure things are done properly.
CyndiW (Florida)
Posts: 1
Posted:
If the band was being paid, then they were not "volunteers" by definition.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Our Social Committee, and anyone else who wants to help, decorate both our lobbies and our on-premises outdoor circle drive area, for the winter holidays. Involves putting ornaments on the Christmas trees, putting lights around some railings in the circle drive, putting wreathes on the vehicle entry gates, setting up the menorah on a credenza,. etc. Looks great. What these volunteers must not do is climb ladders to place ornaments near the tops of the two trees. That's done by our building engineer since the volunteers would not be covered by our insurance if injured falling off a ladder.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By KerryL1 on 12/05/2017 10:23 AM

. . . the volunteers would not be covered by our insurance if injured falling off a ladder.

Actually, I think they would be covered.

Have you specifically asked?

I know that, as a Director and Officer of the Association (both volunteer positions) I would be covered.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Yes, Tim we definitely have asked our agent. None of our volunteers may do anything that might be considered "risky." Going into our electrical rooms is one example. Before we asked our agent, volunteers did go up ladders (the trees are maybe 12" tall) and one man did fall forward into the tree and emerged uninjured. That's when we asked.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Kerry,

Interesting. Thanks for the info.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
Close your eyes and picture this:

Old men wielding chainsaws.

VOLUNTEER old men.

Heart warming, no?

D'OH
BarbaraT1 (Texas)
Posts: 821
Posted:
In addition to the liability issue, when you use volunteer labor, what are your options if the work isn't up to par? Do you ask your volunteer to repaint the crooked lines in the parking lot? To pick up the branches they left behind when trimming trees? Aside from being an awkward conversation, you really have no leverage.

When you say you use a list of vendors from "The HOA" I assume you mean the management company. Accepting kickbacks is a serious accusation. What leads you to believe that this is happening?
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaininyourA on 12/06/2017 3:08 PM
Close your eyes and picture this:

Old men wielding chainsaws.

VOLUNTEER old men.

Heart warming, no?

Oh yeah, I did that when reading back over the old minutes of my association. My reaction was, "Really?"
BenA2 (Texas)
Posts: 1,273
Posted:
We have always used member volunteers whenever we can with no problems. Anyone can sue for anything but if I volunteer to cut down a tree or repair a roof, I would be hard pressed to win a lawsuit if I hurt myself, at least in most states. Our revenue barely covers maintenance on our common areas so we have to save money where we can.

In a perfect world you are safer hiring someone who is licensed and bonded but because of the private nature of an HOA, I think the risk of lawsuits is minimal. Of course, every state is different so you should probably check with an attorney.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Feel free to roll the dice if you want. When an ambulance chaser comes around and tells you your ladder fell over because the ground under it hadn't been maintained properly and practically guarantees you a million dollars, how many people are actually going to say no? There are plenty of lawyers like that in Texas, just as there are everywhere. I know a few of them in TX.
BillH10 (Texas)
Posts: 1,217
Posted:
The Association in which we reside made the decision three years ago to cease using volunteers to place holiday decorations after I observed a 68 year old neighbor crawling on hands and knees on a 6' high entrance monument wall to place lights. While we are not a "senior" designated community, over 75% of us are 60 or older. Any injury at our ages to muscles or bones is potentially life changing, using volunteers which exposes them to possible injury is simply not worth the risk.

We talked with our insurance representative and learned our Workers Compensation policy (in place to protect the HOA in the event contractor personnel are injured while working in the community--regardless of contractor insurance we have substantial assets and the means to obtain more and are viewed as having deep pockets) also covers volunteers participating in Board directed activity.

We still use volunteers for low risk activities such as placing wreaths on mailboxes. Should someone fall while doing so, the Association WC policy will provide coverage. If your association is using volunteers for projects with an element of risk, I recommend you speak with your insurance provider about WC coverage.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By BillH10 on 12/09/2017 8:29 AM

We talked with our insurance representative and learned our Workers Compensation policy (in place to protect the HOA in the event contractor personnel are injured while working in the community--regardless of contractor insurance we have substantial assets and the means to obtain more and are viewed as having deep pockets) also covers volunteers participating in Board directed activity.

We still use volunteers for low risk activities such as placing wreaths on mailboxes. Should someone fall while doing so, the Association WC policy will provide coverage. If your association is using volunteers for projects with an element of risk, I recommend you speak with your insurance provider about WC coverage.


BillH10, this is great information.

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