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RustyS1 (Colorado)
Posts: 5
Posted:
First, thank you for reading this. I need some advice and hope that someone can help.

A few months ago, after moving to this community, I decided to volunteer to sit on the architectural committee (AC) for our HOA. I'm beginning to wonder why I did that, and think I should have waited longer to understand the HOA dynamics. I have never been involved in any HOA before.

Almost immediately after I joined the AC, we received a request from a homeowner to add a permanent structure to her land. Together with the other (long time resident) members of the AC, we considered other structures within the neighborhood. Although her proposal was unique, we approached the request in a "can we make this work" manner rather than a "can we deny this" manner. The AC rules are decades old, very vague, and (I have since discovered) have been interpreted in various ways since this neighborhood was created. Essentially, there is a limit on the number of buildings allowed per property, but over time, people have added to their existing structures in various ways, such as connecting existing buildings with breezeways or covered porches. The covenants do not address how additions are to be attached to existing structures.

Anyway, we determined that her argument to connect this structure to her existing building was as sound as any other previous request, that we should be flexible, and that the addition would not alter the appearance of the neighborhood in a negative manner or decrease existing property values. So it was approved.

The structure has already been built and now, a couple of other neighbors are displeased with the way the addition is connected to the other building and are insisting that we tell the homeowner that she needs to remove the structure. We have explained that we reviewed all pertinent information, and that we felt the proposal was appropriate.

These upset neighbors are now in the process of stirring up other members of the community and are asking to see the homeowner's proposal, any emails that AC members shared regarding the decision, and the final approval documentation. I assume that they are entitled to all of these records?

Forgive me for my inexperience, but I feel as though I have stepped into a huge hornet's nest.

What liability will I have if this thing gets nasty?

Thanks in advance and I hope you are all having a good day.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
When you say it was approved, does that mean the Board of Directors approved it as well?

It sounds to me like you did everything right. Ask the BOD if the documents requested can/should be given. At the end of the day, she has a letter of approval for the design. If it was built to the specs of the design, not much anyone can do about it.

You might offer to meet with the residents who are offended by it to see what their issue is. Maybe another solution will present itself. Color, siding, etc.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
As far as libel. If the BOD approved it as well, you and the other ARC members are good. If the structure/project is not expressly forbidden in the governing documents, you will probably be okay as well. However, some residents obviously feel there is a violation. Open a line of communication.
RustyS1 (Colorado)
Posts: 5
Posted:
In our community, the AC makes the decision and it is not reviewed by the Board (unless the AC denies the request and the homeowner appeals to the Board).
RustyS1 (Colorado)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Nothing in the covenants that addresses how buildings are to be attached. But the unhappy neighbors claim that the method of attachment does not sufficiently unite the buildings.

We aren't going to get much guidance from the Board, as one of the Board members is one of the complainers, and the other two members tend to avoid confrontation.

What did I get myself into?

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I agree with Douglas: It sounds like your ARC did everything right. Your practiced due diligence and considered the appearance compared with other additions.

I can't imagine that you'd get into any kind of legal trouble whatsoever. Does your HOA's directors & officers insurance cover committee members too?

Sounds like there's a board of three and 2 aren't complaining about the addition. Is the 3rd trying to get the Board to vote to remove this addition? If they don't like confrontation, how will they respond if the 3rd director demands a vote on the topic? On what grounds could he try to overturn the ARC's decision?

The Board ultimately is responsible for committees and can, if it wishes disband your committee for any or no reason. But do your documents permits them to overturn your decisions? Especially after the building has been done?

Since your HOA probably is incorporated, your Bylaws may have something to say about committees. Ours actually say very little and we have to turn to CA Corps Code. You may want to read CO Corps code on the topic.

I don't think the complainers, even the one who's a director can demand to have your email exchanges. But he, with the board's approval could review the proposal and the approval.

This all being outside my experience and my not being in the legal professions, I can't help much. I think the board needs to get involved, but the director who's complaining may have a conflict of interest if this only affects him a a few others. In other words, he cannot be objective in any discussions about this issue.

It's a shame that your willingness to volunteer has put you in this unpleasant spot.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Dear Fellow Owner

Sorry but we seem to have misplaced the original AC Request. We did review the structure and approved it so the original AC Request is a moot point.

MOOT POINT
An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such discussion may be useful for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
..... What did I get myself into? .....


T. Jefferson's nightmare: a Democracy.

a/k/a HOA
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
Dear Fellow Owner,

We did review the structure and approved it so the original AC Request is a moot point.

Please communicate any further concerns directly to the BOD, quoting specific CCR violations.

MOOT POINT
An issue regarded as potentially debatable, but no longer practically applicable. Although the idea may still be worth debating and exploring academically, and such discussion may be useful for addressing similar issues in the future, the idea has been rendered irrelevant for the present issue.
RustyS1 (Colorado)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Thank you all for your intelligent insights and your help in putting this in perspective.

We live in a litigious world, and while I don't know whether the aggrieved homeowners will be satisfied by anything we say or produce for them, I will persevere.

Thanks again. I hope I can help a bit with other issues raised on this Board when I get more experience.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Be careful about approving buildings attached to a structure. I would recommend the owner have a conversation with their insurance company. You also may want to review with the Fire Marshall as well.

The reason being that attaching a structure to an existing one can effect multiple areas such as risk and value. Insurance may increase or recommend the structure is NOT attached. It may be close but not attached. This folds into the conversation with the Fire Marshall. Depending on what that structure has in it, the fire risk increases. It becomes dangerous to responders.

Reason I bring this up is that a member in our HOA added a storage shed to back of house. We have very small yards. They consulted their insurance company. If it was attached their insurance payment went up. However, if they kept it a few inches from the home, then it was not considered "risky".

Later, I talked to the fire Marshall. He mentioned to me the reason for unattached sheds to homes. It's because if you decide to attach a "wood shed" or one filled with household chemicals, they tend to spread fires/explosions. It makes it dangerous for them to respond if you have a paint can on fire. They do explode. A stack of wood just works like a fireplace. Keeps the fire continuous.

It's not an easy job being on an ACC. Plus final response is to be approved by the board. Which is helpful or hellfull...

Former HOA President
DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/30/2017 3:39 PM
Be careful about approving buildings attached to a structure. I would recommend the owner have a conversation with their insurance company. You also may want to review with the Fire Marshall as well.

Yes, those are considerations for the homeowner, but not necessarily for the ACC or the HOA.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Strongly disagree. Our HOA the homes are extremely close together and wood/Masonite siding. We did not allow one to use their fireplace without having it inspected/cleaned. One house goes up in flames it could easily take out 3.

So one of our considerations is safety of the homes nearby.

Former HOA President
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/30/2017 7:45 PM
Strongly disagree. Our HOA the homes are extremely close together and wood/Masonite siding. We did not allow one to use their fireplace without having it inspected/cleaned. One house goes up in flames it could easily take out 3.

So one of our considerations is safety of the homes nearby.

Sounds like overreaching to me, unless the docs support shutting down a fireplace, making sure fire places are cleaned, etc.. It would have to be very specific and I doubt it is.

You're setting yourself up for libel. If three houses go up in flames because the BOD did not require cleaning of this fireplace, but did require it on the other home, you may have a problem.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I agree that it would be exceeding the Associations authority to require such actions UNLESS it's a condominium. Then it would still depend on the language in the governing documents.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
That is NOT libel. Plus it's instituting common sense with that recommendation. Typically people who own the homes with the fire places do ask first before lighting fires. We did have a home go up over a fireplace. Log fell out onto the carpet. Luckily it stayed contained in the home. HOA didn't have anything to do with it. Just had to approve the repairs for the exterior.

It's not directly the HOA's responsibility but it's also not something we can't give good advice on. Which is ANYONE on this planet with a fireplace should ALWAYS have it inspected once a year or cleaned periodically. Would the fire department be "libel" for every fire when they give the same advice?

Former HOA President
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
Melissa, this thread is about a few H'owners complaining about the aesthetics of an ARC-approved add-on. If your want to talk about safety issues & ARC approvals, start your own thread.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 11/30/2017 7:45 PM
Strongly disagree. Our HOA the homes are extremely close together and wood/Masonite siding. We did not allow one to use their fireplace without having it inspected/cleaned.
.

Quote:
Posted By MelissaP1 on 12/01/2017 4:19 AM

. Would the fire department be "libel" for every fire when they give the same advice?

Giving advice and telling someone they can’t do something until certain conditions are met is too entirely different things. By setting the conditions and expectations, you are predicting the results.
I have never heard a fire department tell anyone they were not allowed to use their fireplace without having it inspected, except after a fire.
If your HOA is telling members they have to have their fireplaces cleaned and inspected before they can use them, I suggest you draft a procedure and a check list. You should also have each resident sign a form stating they understand what the inspection consists of. I seriously doubt anyone on the board is certified or qualified to verify the final condition of the fireplace as to whether or not it’s clean enough, so I also suggest you hire a sweep or have an actual fire inspector come out and check them.
It may seem like mincing words to you, but that is exactly what will be said in the courts. And if you want to mention “common sense”, well, common sense means cleaning the fireplace without the HOA having to tell you. It also means the HOA should not get involved in areas that are not expressly mentioned in the covenants.
If you, as ‘Melissa’, wants to go around and remind people every fall to have their chimneys cleaned and checked before they use them, that makes you a pretty wonderful neighbor. But the HOA doing it can lead to big problems.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
My apologies, Yes, a new thread is needed to continue this.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I am your neighbor if I am in a HOA....

Former HOA President
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RustyS1 on 11/30/2017 3:02 PM
Thank you all for your intelligent insights and your help in putting this in perspective.

We live in a litigious world, and while I don't know whether the aggrieved homeowners will be satisfied by anything we say or produce for them, I will persevere.

Thanks again. I hope I can help a bit with other issues raised on this Board when I get more experience.

Sounds like you jumped in the deep end of the pool. You'll learn quickly. Having said that, if you acted responsibly and took the time to actually research what your architectural guidelines say, what your other documents say, and what similar projects have been approved in the past, i.e. you acted in good faith, then I think you have nothing to worry about from a legal point of view (note that I am not a lawyer). My association's Directors & Officers insurance policy includes, "committee members or volunteers of the Insured Organization" in its list of "Insured Person(s)". Assuming most D&O policies are similar (check into it, though, because I may be assuming too much) then you'd be covered under that, too, if things really went sideways.

I'd round up a list of every other similar request (or even dissimilar ones) that was approved in the past and point to those as Exhibit A in defense of your decision. If you make things clear you may even find others changing their minds and agreeing with you.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RustyS1 on 11/30/2017 8:16 AM
First, thank you for reading this. I need some advice and hope that someone can help.

A few months ago, after moving to this community, I decided to volunteer to sit on the architectural committee (AC) for our HOA. I'm beginning to wonder why I did that, and think I should have waited longer to understand the HOA dynamics. I have never been involved in any HOA before. Look at it as a learning experience. I have found in HOA's knowledge is power ... the more you know the less likely anyone else can take advantage of you. Also you can help others in future with what you learn.

Almost immediately after I joined the AC, we received a request from a homeowner to add a permanent structure to her land. Together with the other (long time resident) members of the AC, we considered other structures within the neighborhood. Although her proposal was unique, we approached the request in a "can we make this work" manner rather than a "can we deny this" manner. The AC rules are decades old, very vague, and (I have since discovered) have been interpreted in various ways since this neighborhood was created. Essentially, there is a limit on the number of buildings allowed per property, but over time, people have added to their existing structures in various ways, such as connecting existing buildings with breezeways or covered porches. The covenants do not address how additions are to be attached to existing structures.

Anyway, we determined that her argument to connect this structure to her existing building was as sound as any other previous request, that we should be flexible, and that the addition would not alter the appearance of the neighborhood in a negative manner or decrease existing property values. So it was approved. It appears the ACC looked at the governing documents and past approvals to make a decision they felt best for the owner and community. That is the best they can do and cannot be held liable for trying their best in their volunteer position.

The structure has already been built and now, a couple of other neighbors are displeased with the way the addition is connected to the other building and are insisting that we tell the homeowner that she needs to remove the structure. We have explained that we reviewed all pertinent information, and that we felt the proposal was appropriate. The owner constructed based on a proper approval as you have noted via your governing documents. Sorry ... the structure either gets to stay or if HOA demanded removed the HOA would need to PAY the homeowner for all of their expenses and costs for the already approved structure. Also, if there is any issue of not meeting CCR's any litigation must be started within one year of the structure being done which as noted in the CO laws.

These upset neighbors are now in the process of stirring up other members of the community and are asking to see the homeowner's proposal, any emails that AC members shared regarding the decision, and the final approval documentation. I assume that they are entitled to all of these records? They need to place any such requests through your BOD of Directors as they are the entity to approve the release of your HOA records. And those upset neighbors need to stop and think about the potential future outcome if they push the issue: 1) The Owner who has proper approval if asked to take down their structure could file a lawsuit against the HOA ... and I predict a high probability of winning so the HOA would have to pay for their attorney and most likely reimburse the Owner their attorney expenses as well, or 2) Reimburse the owner for their out of pocket expenses and HOA pay for removal of structure. Either way it would cost the association a lot of $$$$,

Forgive me for my inexperience, but I feel as though I have stepped into a huge hornet's nest.

What liability will I have if this thing gets nasty? The HOA BOD and volunteers do not have any personal liability unless they themselves engage in law violations or violate their fiduciary duty. We are all volunteers doing the best we can to be fair and equal ... that is what is important.

Thanks in advance and I hope you are all having a good day.

RustyS1 (Colorado)
Posts: 5
Posted:
Thanks again for all of your kind words and the concerns you have expressed.

What a helpful group!

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