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TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
I have an ethical question. Our small (< 20 properties) HOA recently hired an attorney to review/update our governing documents. As part of the process, the attorney determined that our HOA is voluntary, not mandatory. The other members of the board are unanimous in that they do not want to divulge this information to the homeowners, fearing they may opt out and therefore the HOA would not have enough money to properly maintain the common areas. My opinion is that this would be unethical. The board used homeowner money to hire the attorney and therefore the homeowners are entitled to the full findings of the attorney.

Should I buck the board and take it upon myself to notify the other homeowners?
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I would seek a second opinion first.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
I would want to define what is meant by voluntary first. Although it does sound like being in the HOA is optional, it also translates that if you serve on the HOA board it is a voluntary position. It is true the HOA is only funded by it's members for it's members. So it lends that the owners did pay for the attorney. However, the attorney is representing the board and HOA as a whole. The board may decide to filter that information as client privilege for now till they can get more idea of what to do. No need to knee jerk react.

Former HOA President
TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
The attorney was clear that the governing documents did not include all lots in the HOA and that the documents "do not mandate mandatory membership in the HOA and do not authorize the association to impose liens for unpaid assessments". The BOD made it clear that they have no intention of relaying this information to the membership because they are afraid of the fall out and that the members could have/should have hired their own attorneys to find this information. We have an annual meeting coming up in a few days and I think the membership is entitled to this information.
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TonyM6 on 11/29/2017 6:05 AM
The attorney was clear that the governing documents did not include all lots in the HOA and that the documents "do not mandate mandatory membership in the HOA and do not authorize the association to impose liens for unpaid assessments". The BOD made it clear that they have no intention of relaying this information to the membership because they are afraid of the fall out and that the members could have/should have hired their own attorneys to find this information. We have an annual meeting coming up in a few days and I think the membership is entitled to this information.


Can you quote the part or parts of the governing documents that the attorney used to justify his or her opinion?

Is the HOA declaration recorded with the county where you live? If so, then the courts view this as proper disclosure to anyone who buys land in your (voluntary) HOA. Subsequently if the governing documents are reasonably clear that certain lots do not have to contribute via assessments, then I think you should say nothing.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I would be curious on what common area, amenities and services the Association provides.

Often, if there is very few it may be voluntary.

Again, I would seek a second opinion before the annual meeting.

If the second opinion concurs with the first, then I would inform the membership of the Boards findings. The Board might be afraid of the fallout but hiding it may have other legal consequences (perpetrating a fraud perhaps).

Per USlegal Fraud:

Fraud is generally defined in the law as an intentional misrepresentation of material existing fact made by one person to another with knowledge of its falsity and for the purpose of inducing the other person to act, and upon which the other person relies with resulting injury or damage. Fraud may also be made by an omission or purposeful failure to state material facts, which nondisclosure makes other statements misleading.

At the very least, the Board should ask the attorney if they need to disclose this info and the consequences if they do not.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Tony
This is a serious enough matter to call for a 2nd legal opinion.
GaryM15 (North Carolina)
Posts: 63
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TonyM6 on 11/29/2017 2:26 AM
I have an ethical question.
Should I buck the board and take it upon myself to notify the other homeowners?


Not only YES, but hell YES!

The officers of the association have a primary duty to the homeowners, not the so called "HOA".

I am in the same position with my association. The other officers wanted to change the covenants to include conditions that would be applicable to only a mandatory HOA. I questioned that, and eventually an attorney determined that we are not mandatory, that is we are not a HOA. "Assessments" are actually contributions. We announced this to the neighborhood, and have a scheduled a meeting to discuss this.

However, make no mistake about this; Abiding by the covenants is mandatory!

I have become so involved that I have registered a domain and created a web site to be sure that the neighborhood has all of the information it needs. The other officers want me to resign from the board. In the interest of not violating any forum rules, I’m not naming the web site. However it has a lot of information that you may find valuable. Can we communicate privately?

Here is a link to my original thread on that topic.

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/232576/view/topic/Default.aspx

We are also going to discuss if we want to become mandatory.
Here is a thread on that topic.

http://www.hoatalk.com/Forum/tabid/55/forumid/1/postid/236984/view/topic/Default.aspx

And some articles of interest.

Homeowners' Associations - Voluntary or Mandatory?
http://www.ccfj.net/HOAvolunt.htm

Homeowners' Associations - Voluntary or Mandatory or NOT AT ALL?
http://www.ccfj.net/HOAFLmand.html

Mandatory versus Voluntary – Are You Ruled by a HOA?
http://condohoalaw.blogspot.com/2013/12/mandatory-versus-voluntary-are-you.html

Be prepared for some conflict management issues.

Gary

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
It's an easy question to answer. All you have to do is put some thought into it.

Do you have common areas that require maintenance? Will these common areas become an eye sore or possibly even dangerous to use if not maintained?

Is the money being collected, and that has been collected, being used properly for "needed" items?

Before you start trying to make this an ethical thing, stop and think that each and every one of the homeowners have a copy of the documents and have probably read them.

I would continue on as business as usual. You are acting like a person with a secret that simply has to tell someone. Your actions may be detrimental to the greater cause.

Is it working? Do you want it to continue to work? Do you want it to fail? Will you gain from the failure?

Answer those and you should have your answer.
TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
We have 2 small common areas (grass with trees/shrubbery) totaling about 1/2 acre that the HOA maintains.

We also have 2 private roads that the HOA has been maintaining however the attorney also determined that the roads are not HOA property. They are owned by a 3rd party (prior HOA property owner) who granted an easement for use to the homeowners with the stipulation that the 3rd party is not responsible for maintenance /upkeep. The attorney noted that per Florida case law, maintenance of an easement falls to the owners of the easement, not the underlying property owner. Therefore, the homeowners, not the HOA nor the 3rd party are responsible. This is another bone of contention between myself and the rest of the BOD who don't want to reveal this fact either. One road was properly engineered, graded and paved, with underground utilities, and paid for by the property owners on that road. The other road, a narrow one lane road that the rest of the BOD lives on, just had tar laid down on top of the existing dirt road and is atrocious. To me, it seems they are scheming to use HOA money to bring their road up to standards.

DouglasM6, you seem to be of the mind that the end justifies the means. I disagree strongly but them I'm also the type who will tell the waitress they forgot to put the dessert on my check. And as TimB4 notes, omission is fraud.

I agree that a second opinion would be useful although the attorney used is more than qualified in HOA law, the BOD will never approve going to a second attorney, and I am not willing to pay out of my pocket to double check as I am OK with the findings and I understand the basis for them.

GaryM15, I appreciate your point of view and will read the links you sent and figure out how to get in contact with you.

My hope is that this being a small, high-rent neighborhood, all property owners have a vested interested in keeping it looking decent or property values will suffer. Just because an HOA is voluntary, does not mean everyone is going to cheap out. And quite frankly, if 1 or 2 out of the 14 do, the remainder can easily absorb the added cost.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
I guess maybe I’m reading this wrong. I should probably stay out of it, but….

Since you brought up the waitress scenario- Are you the type that will pick up the check for everyone at the table once they find out the waitress put it all on one tab and handed it to you? Are you the type that will continue taking these people to lunch and paying with no foreseeable end to the arrangement?

Using your analogy, right now you have everyone paying for their portion of the tab (assuming the meals were the same). I don’t see why you’d want to change that. You are part of the Board, and if the Board votes to handle something a certain way, you should support it. In my HOA we are not required to share the info from the attorney unless the question was presented by a homeowner.

In nearly every, if not every, scenario in life the goal is the end result. I do not support anything illegal, but what is happening in your neighborhood is not illegal. You, and clearly others, feel it’s unethical. I disagree. Everyone has had the documents since they purchased. It’s not the BOD responsibility to read it to them.
This is another example, in my opinion, of someone believing the “Homeowners” and the “HOA” are two separate things. They are the same.

1 or 2 out of the 14?? If you could somehow guarantee that amount, it might change my mind. But since I’m a gambling man, I’d prepare for 30-50% bailing at first. Then the rest following over the next 5 years or so. Meanwhile, the common areas become crap, ethically.

But I digress.
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
What type of attorney did they use to get such an opinion? Not all lawyers are created equal or know what they are doing when it comes to HOA's. You do NOT hire a "Real Estate" attorney for a HOA. This is CONTRACTUAL or Corporate law. If it's affordable then may find a lawyer whose specialty is HOA's. Otherwise it's better to find a lawyer that may be a "general" or business in nature.

I've dealt with various attorney's and found that Real Estate Attorneys are not the type to hire for HOA's. A HOA is NOT real estate. It's a corporation.

Former HOA President
TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Agreed. The law firm in question, among other things, specializes in condo/HOA/cooperative law and represent several hundred associations. I trust they know their stuff.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Honestly, If you don't want to get a second opinion, I also wouldn't disclose until you have a plan in place to address the issue and fully explain everything to the membership.

The Association can still administrate the road maintenance but will have to determine the amounts to place into reserves based on those who share the road and, I expect, have a private road maintenance agreement attached to their deed (typically the CC&Rs).

The Association needs to determine if the "common area" they are maintaining is really common area or simply easements. To my understanding, those who have an easement are not required to maintain.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Ask the attorney they used for their opinion on whether or not the info should be shared with the membership/residents.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Tony

Part of what people are saying is mandatory or not, some costs of any association membership are mandatory such as road maintenance, retention pond maintenance, street lighting, property/liability insurance, etc.

Being voluntary does not relive one of all association financial obligations.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
Have you read the CC&R's, by-laws, or Articles of Incorporation? Something sticks out to me like a sore thumb here. Why did it take a lawyer's opinion to know this information? Am I missing a step in the process here?

Plus what does it take to change/modify the documents? People find out it's volunteer to join and not mandatory then what? Everyone just abandons ship and leaves any financial burdens behind? Seems to me it's time to gather up the support and votes it takes to modify your documentation. You still have restrictions/responsibilities. So why not make the documents change to reflect what you all want/need?

The power is in all of your hands here to make the change. Just make sure to file it at the courthouse with the proper votes/documentation.

Former HOA President
TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Yes, I've read all the governing documents and in fact I created a set of by-laws for the association since they had been running for 20 years without any. Being new to HOAs, I was not aware of what needed to be in the documents referenced by the deed for it to be a mandatory HOA. I was told it was mandatory when I bought and I unfortunately assumed I was being told correctly.

The attorney has drafted new CCRs and by-laws for submission to the homeowners for their approval. However, the homeowners are not being told why this is necessary beyond "bringing them up to date". Actually the documents are being updated because they contain verbiage pertinent to a mandatory HOA (such as placing a lien against a property) when they can not because it is, in reality, a voluntary HOA. Unlike a home purchase where folks generally hire a lawyer to review the contract(s), it is unlikely that any homeowner will hire a lawyer to review the HOA documentation. While it may (or may not) be legal to not divulge the information, it is sleazy at best. No better than slipping someone a contract and saying "sign here" without letting them reading it as it will not be obvious to anyone that the changes are to make the HOA in compliance statutory-wise with a voluntary HOA.

I disagree that any homeowner is obligated for any costs in a voluntary HOA. And in fact, a voluntary HOA has no authority to fine or lien someone for non-payment of association dues and can only sue in court for non-compliance with the CCRs. However, one would expect that a homeowner who voluntarily participates in a voluntary HOA would also voluntarily pay one's fair share for the upkeep of the common areas.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Tony,

Would one still be willing to pay for road maintenance if they didn't have to?

Now that you know this information, will you be a voluntary member or not?
Now that you know, when you sell, you will need to disclose this to your buyer.

A lot of what a member or nonmember must pay will depend on language contained in the deed restrictions.
Therefore, in my opinion, it's pointless to discuss as we don't have access to those documents.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
The word 'fraud' comes to mind. Once the board finds something out, then hiding it from people who have a right to know about it (not to mention prospective buyers in the future) becomes illegal, not merely unethical.

If you tell me I have to pay you every month or else a lien will be placed on my home, and I find out there is no actual legal obligation to pay, and you knew that but were lying to me about it.... you would end up paying more than I would.

I would certainly talk to an attorney and possibly more than one. And also possibly a real estate attorney instead of an HOA specialist. I'd also think about contacting my title insurance company to see what they think.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
I'm beginning to agree with Tim. It's pointless and opinionated at this point. It could be that serving on the BOD is voluntary and the assessments are mandatory.

Either way, if the assessments are not mandatory and they are needed, the best thing to do is get the documents modified so they become mandatory. You don't have to hold anyone's hand in this process. The new documents are what they will be voting on. Give them each a copy _____ days prior to the meeting (going off what the governing docs is required for the lead time of the vote), then let them vote.

Not trying to sound nasty or anything, but you seem like you have your hand on the self destruct button and feel you have to push it.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/30/2017 12:26 PM
I'm beginning to agree with Tim. It's pointless and opinionated at this point. It could be that serving on the BOD is voluntary and the assessments are mandatory.

Either way, if the assessments are not mandatory and they are needed, the best thing to do is get the documents modified so they become mandatory. You don't have to hold anyone's hand in this process. The new documents are what they will be voting on. Give them each a copy _____ days prior to the meeting (going off what the governing docs is required for the lead time of the vote), then let them vote.

Not trying to sound nasty or anything, but you seem like you have your hand on the self destruct button and feel you have to push it.

I agree. He wants to self destruct his association.
TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Personally, I would prefer the association was mandatory and subject to Florida Statute 720. I want the neighbor to look good and I want the BOD to act in a manner that protects the homeowners rights with proper notice, formal budgets, a capital improvement/deferred maintenance plan, etc. However, the BOD doesn't even want to put forward the idea of making the HOA mandatory.

Nonetheless, I still feel the rest of the homeowners are entitled to know that its voluntary, not just the BOD. Because one is afraid of the outcome is not a good reason for withholding information from the membership.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
MEMBERSHIP may, or may not, be voluntary.

Assessments to pay for a NECESSARY and USED element such as the roads are MANDATORY.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By PaininyourA on 11/30/2017 2:37 PM

Assessments to pay for a NECESSARY and USED element such as the roads are MANDATORY.

Depends on the language of the private road agreement.

It's possible that the Association isn't supposed to maintain the private road and the owners along that road are responsible to manage that.

It's possible that the Association is responsible to maintain the private road but (per the OP) need to quit assessing everyone for it and only assess those who are responsible.

It's possible that each owner along the private road is responsible for the section of road from their property line to the middle of the road.

As I said, it depends on the language of the private road agreement (which may or may not be included within the CC&Rs).
TonyM6 (Florida)
Posts: 12
Posted:
Tim has it right.

First, a voluntary HOA, while they can assess dues against the voluntary members, it can not enforce payment of them nor lien your property. To me, that says they are not mandatory. Second, an HOA (voluntary or mandatory) has no right to assess a property owner who is not a member of the HOA.

Also, per the document granting easement of use for the roads to the homeowners, it is indeed the homeowners who are responsible for maintaining the roads, independent of whether or not there is an HOA. The homeowners could ask the HOA to facilitate the repair, i.e. collect the cost and hire the contractor, but the HOA has no authority to do so on its own.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TonyM6 on 11/30/2017 5:03 PM

The homeowners could ask the HOA to facilitate the repair, i.e. collect the cost and hire the contractor, but the HOA has no authority to do so on its own.

If the HOA does not have this authority, the owners can ask but it would require the governing documents be amended to grant such authority. Otherwise, the Association would be exceeding the authority granted by the governing documents.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Tony,

I think everyone is in agreement that the membership should be informed of this information, especially prior to the 1st of the year (when I expect the next assessment request goes out).

I think everyone is in agreement that failure to inform while demanding assessment payments places the Board and the Association is a very bad situation. Worst case, fraud charges might be brought. Next worst case, the D&O insurance wouldn't cover the Directors because they would have knowingly done this (vs. an honest mistake - which is what has been happening).

I think everyone is in agreement that you should not just tell your neighbors but you should encourage the Board to do this as a group.

In my opinion, if the Board chooses to ignore our encouragement, you should seek legal advice for you personally to see what your options are.

One option I can think of would be to refuse to pay next years assessment and withdraw from the Association. This may force the Boards hand to let the members know as some may ask why the Board isn't going after (what would appear as) delinquent accounts.

Lets face it, the word will get out.
It's best to be the one presenting it vs. the one defending why the information wasn't provided.

At the very least, get your concerns into the minutes and force a vote on the issue.
This may protect you in the future.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/30/2017 7:39 PM
Tony,

I think everyone is in agreement that the membership should be informed of this information, especially prior to the 1st of the year (when I expect the next assessment request goes out).

I think everyone is in agreement that failure to inform while demanding assessment payments places the Board and the Association is a very bad situation. Worst case, fraud charges might be brought. Next worst case, the D&O insurance wouldn't cover the Directors because they would have knowingly done this (vs. an honest mistake - which is what has been happening).

I think everyone is in agreement that you should not just tell your neighbors but you should encourage the Board to do this as a group.

In my opinion, if the Board chooses to ignore our encouragement, you should seek legal advice for you personally to see what your options are.

One option I can think of would be to refuse to pay next years assessment and withdraw from the Association. This may force the Boards hand to let the members know as some may ask why the Board isn't going after (what would appear as) delinquent accounts.

Lets face it, the word will get out.
It's best to be the one presenting it vs. the one defending why the information wasn't provided.

At the very least, get your concerns into the minutes and force a vote on the issue.
This may protect you in the future.


Not everyone, Tim. I still stand firm on my opinion that the membership has had the docs for their review since they purchased and the current board has no responsibility to make sure they have read it and/or understand them. If it were me, I would put out the proposed amendments to the membership for review and then call a vote. There may be questions to be answered at that time, and that is when they should be answered. As far as we know, the majority of the members may already know this and Tony is just now finding out.

The Board is supposed to make decisions that have the members best interests in mind. Setting it up to fail by telling people they don't have to pay is clearly not in their best interest.

Keep in mind, everyone may be finding this out at the same time. The Board is acting on it in a timely manner. I see no fraud being committed. Even "asking" for assessments would not be considered fraud. Fining and liens may be, but I'd have to read the documents myself to make that determination. And even if the docs don't support it, using the money properly would be hard to call fraud in front of a judge.

It sounds like a great neighborhood. Sounds like everyone pays when they should and understands that the money is needed and it sounds like the HOA is being ran in such a way the membership trusts the BOD, except Tony. I'm guessing, of course. But that's the feeling a I get.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Found this website describing situation: http://realestatemiamiattorney.com/2826/voluntary-hoas-follow-floridas-new-hoa-regulations-2/ There is also an attorney name and number in the document to contact for a no charge, no obligation consultation if you happen to live in that area of FL. I agree with Tim that you should potentially seek another opinion and to see what potential liabilities you could have as a BOD member withholding pertinent information which affects the HOA from other owners. If dues are solicited and done in a manner whereby individuals feel like they have been forced to pay ... then later they find out otherwise ... I would not want ot be in your BOD's shoes when crap hits the fan and potential lawsuits.

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