Livestock

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Paininyourass, john, PITA, or whatever you're going by now....

Since we had a discussion about trucks, and trucks of any type, and etc....

If the covenant says:

"No Livestock"

Or

"No Livestock of any kind"

What would be the difference? Please define each statement.

Others are also welcome to comment.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

IF it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it's a duck... Now if it speaks Canadian it's a Canadian Goose...

Former HOA President

AugustinD
Posts: 5,144

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/09/2017 2:57 PM

If the covenant says: "No Livestock" Or "No Livestock of any kind"

What would be the difference? Please define each statement.

I think the larger problem might be defining "livestock." When is an animal livestock and when is it a family pet (or perhaps both)? Could a large neighborhood association with two acre lots prohibit "livestock," including pet goats that are used to provide a HOA member (and goat owner) with milk? I think the more ambiguous the restriction, the more likely it is a court would rule in favor of free enjoyment of property. Here's a fun case (as long as you do not live at the HOA in question) that discusses this:
https://financenewmexico.org/articles/general-business-advice/court-ruling-shows-covenants-will-be-interpreted-narrowly/

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

I got to love the PITA people that buy a home in a HOA then they want to make everyone else's lives MISERABLE.
It's bad enough that people that can't handle the word NO has PTSD and they require a therapy animal. Do they chose a fluffy wuffy wittle kitten or a PUP PPY?
NOooooooooo, they chose a pot bellied pig, a horse goat. Then there are those separate jerks that rent that engage in cock fighting. Neighbors a woken up
at the but crack of dawn to eeeerrrrt eeeeerrrrrt errrrrrtttt doooooooo. Annnnnnnnnnnnd then there are the save the planet types that raise chickens in the back yard
for eggs and for food.

If we had politicians and Judges with a spine, and would learn to say the word NO!
So you want a horse for a therapy animal? You live in a development that is not zoned for livestock, move to a rural area and you can have a horse, stay in your
densely populated home and, NO you cannot have a horse.

I myself would love to raise chickens in my 19'x44' backyard, chickens are allot less noisy than roosters, but I'm not zoned for it and the CC&R's say #3LL NO!

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By LetA on 11/09/2017 9:48 PM

If we had politicians and Judges with a spine, and would learn to say the word NO!
Agree ... That is potentially a problem ... LOL especially for the politicians.

I myself would love to raise chickens in my 19'x44' backyard, chickens are allot less noisy than roosters, but I'm not zoned for it and the CC&R's say #3LL NO!
Move to my local city ... they passed legislation a few years ago to allow six (6) chickens per home. Of course an HOA CCR's can say no or limit if they amended their CCR's to disagree with the City Ordinance. So far to my knowledge not many are fighting owners having their chickens.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

Wait, let me guess.... His new HOA includes "reindeer" in the definition of "livestock" but Santa contends that his "miniarure reindeer" are something else entirely, amiright?

TimM11
Posts: 354

Posted:

I'd say it depends on what your city/township/county/etc defines as livestock. Mine spells out exactly what is allowed in residential vs agricultural zones, though they're now allowing chickens on some residential properties with a permit. I believe they're starting to do this with pigs as well. Of course, an HOA can still supercede that.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

already @ 100%

OUT

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaininyourA on 11/10/2017 7:15 AM
already @ 100%

OUT

Chicken.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Here's the deal. Our CC&R's say "no livestock of any kind". One of our residents, who has been there for 30+ years and has also been on the Board before, asked me (current president) if I would put rabbits and chickens to a vote at the next members meetings, since modifying to allow all livestock is no where near having enough support to pass. We have tried it twice and don't get half the votes needed.

We are not in a city, and we are zoned for livestock. I contacted the county for a legal description of "livestock". I explained the situation and told them I wanted something I could take into court if needed. They replied back, after several months and several deferments, that the county defines livestock as Cows, horses, goats, sheep and swine. They specifically said in the email that Chickens and Rabbits are not livestock.

So, this resident could have been raising rabbits and chickens all along. To restrict it would require a vote to amend the restrictions to say "Chickens and Rabbits included".

Since there is not mention of Chickens and Rabbits in the covenants, it is not an HOA issue.

I did say that if we started to receive complaints for odors and noise we would probably have to act, but even then I'm sure what we could do other than refer them to the county ordinance department.

Thoughts?

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/10/2017 2:13 PM
Here's the deal. Our CC&R's say "no livestock of any kind". One of our residents, who has been there for 30+ years and has also been on the Board before, asked me (current president) if I would put rabbits and chickens to a vote at the next members meetings, since modifying to allow all livestock is no where near having enough support to pass. We have tried it twice and don't get half the votes needed.

We are not in a city, and we are zoned for livestock. I contacted the county for a legal description of "livestock". I explained the situation and told them I wanted something I could take into court if needed. They replied back, after several months and several deferments, that the county defines livestock as Cows, horses, goats, sheep and swine. They specifically said in the email that Chickens and Rabbits are not livestock.

So, this resident could have been raising rabbits and chickens all along. To restrict it would require a vote to amend the restrictions to say "Chickens and Rabbits included".

Since there is not mention of Chickens and Rabbits in the covenants, it is not an HOA issue.

I did say that if we started to receive complaints for odors and noise we would probably have to act, but even then I'm sure what we could do other than refer them to the county ordinance department.

Thoughts?

YEP, but, permitted

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

https://youtu.be/-JPqhIc5cF4

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaininyourA on 11/10/2017 3:48 PM
https://youtu.be/-JPqhIc5cF4

LOL!

TimM11
Posts: 354

Posted:

Well, if the jurisdiction you're in doesn't define them as livestock, then they're not livestock. If people want to prohibit them, the CCRs would need to be amended to specifically say so.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/10/2017 2:13 PM
Here's the deal. Our CC&R's say "no livestock of any kind". One of our residents, who has been there for 30+ years and has also been on the Board before, asked me (current president) if I would put rabbits and chickens to a vote at the next members meetings, since modifying to allow all livestock is no where near having enough support to pass. We have tried it twice and don't get half the votes needed.

We are not in a city, and we are zoned for livestock. I contacted the county for a legal description of "livestock". I explained the situation and told them I wanted something I could take into court if needed. They replied back, after several months and several deferments, that the county defines livestock as Cows, horses, goats, sheep and swine. They specifically said in the email that Chickens and Rabbits are not livestock.

So, this resident could have been raising rabbits and chickens all along. To restrict it would require a vote to amend the restrictions to say "Chickens and Rabbits included".

Since there is not mention of Chickens and Rabbits in the covenants, it is not an HOA issue.

I did say that if we started to receive complaints for odors and noise we would probably have to act, but even then I'm sure what we could do other than refer them to the county ordinance department.

Thoughts?

If you are not in the City and zoned for livestock the same as my current subdivision. I would go with the County Ordinance to deal with the headache. It is like many HOA's requiring all dogs must be on a leash ... even though all cities, counties, etc. already have laws stating the same. However, when the HOA has it in their documents they supercede the local laws with regards to liability. I am a firm believer in leaving the legal liability to handle non-compliance with the local government who has "trained" personnel to handle potential vicious animals or other animal issues via their "Animal Control Departments"

. YEP ... the BOD when get a complaint can say "please provide where in our CCR's it states the HOA regulates animals" ... if you have a complaint here is the telephone number to the Local Animal Control who has trained professionals to handle.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Thanks for the replies. I had a feeling this was an easy one.

We are very lucky in that our CC&R's are very small with only a few rules. They were written back in the 60's originally and refiled in 94 with a small change. So, for all these years the folks living here could have been raising rabbits and chickens and just didn't know it. However, I'm sure that as little as ten years ago there would have been plenty of affirmative votes change the cc&r's to prohibit them. The neighborhood went through a huge change when the housing market crashed. A lot more of us "live and let live" type living here now!!

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

Douglas,

From 'my' CCRs:

Section 5. Animals. No animals, livestock, or poultry of any kind shall be kept or
maintained on any property or in any dwelling except that dogs, cats or other household pets may
be kept or maintained provided they are not kept or maintained for commercial purposes and
provided they are not permitted to run unleashed on or about the Properties. Homeowners are
required to pick up after their pets. Failure to do so will result in a fine in accordance with
ARTICLE X, Section 3. No household may have more than two (2) pets.

'May' be what '....of any type' attempted to convey / may not

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

Let the debate about the number of permitted Goldfish begin

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaininyourA on 11/15/2017 2:28 PM
Let the debate about the number of permitted Goldfish begin

47...give or take 10

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

This emotional support squirrel is certainly not livestock.

JerryD5 (Colorado)
Posts: 218

Posted:

Our city allows chickens and ducks (no roosters; max number is 8 in any combination). They also allow 2 goats. They also define what livestock is. So we had to adjust our rules to prohibit any animal as defined by the city. We included chickens, ducks and goats. We had to do that because one of our residents was running a chicken breeding operation inside her house. Yes, inside her house. Not her garage but her actual house with 2 young kids. But of course, on sunny/warm days she brought them outside to a common space she shared with her neighbors. All attempts to talk with the homeowner was met with obstinance. We put our new rules in and she fought them with all of her being. She lost and the rules went into effect. It was the most tumultuous time in our young HOA existence. Her and her husband sued the HOA (over a different issue) and lost. They ended up paying all of our costs to the tune of $2300. Every since then, no more chickens and she focuses her attention else where.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

..... when a dog chased the squirrel up a tree, WFLA-TV .....

Why was the squirrel (while outside the 'unit') not on a leash under the owner's control ?

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 11/15/2017 3:43 PM

Posted By PaininyourA on 11/15/2017 2:28 PM
Let the debate about the number of permitted Goldfish begin

47...give or take 10

I hope the bowl is not a visible eyesore or nuisance.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/10/2017 2:13 PM
Here's the deal. Our CC&R's say "no livestock of any kind". One of our residents, who has been there for 30+ years and has also been on the Board before, asked me (current president) if I would put rabbits and chickens to a vote at the next members meetings, since modifying to allow all livestock is no where near having enough support to pass. We have tried it twice and don't get half the votes needed.

We are not in a city, and we are zoned for livestock. I contacted the county for a legal description of "livestock". I explained the situation and told them I wanted something I could take into court if needed. They replied back, after several months and several deferments, that the county defines livestock as Cows, horses, goats, sheep and swine. They specifically said in the email that Chickens and Rabbits are not livestock.

So, this resident could have been raising rabbits and chickens all along. To restrict it would require a vote to amend the restrictions to say "Chickens and Rabbits included".

Since there is not mention of Chickens and Rabbits in the covenants, it is not an HOA issue.

I did say that if we started to receive complaints for odors and noise we would probably have to act, but even then I'm sure what we could do other than refer them to the county ordinance department.

Thoughts?

An HOA has no obligation to follow the definition established by any governmental body (unfortunately).

If an HOA wanted to classify hermit crabs or pet rocks as "livestock" there is no stopping them.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DaveD3 on 11/17/2017 7:47 AM

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/10/2017 2:13 PM
Here's the deal. Our CC&R's say "no livestock of any kind". One of our residents, who has been there for 30+ years and has also been on the Board before, asked me (current president) if I would put rabbits and chickens to a vote at the next members meetings, since modifying to allow all livestock is no where near having enough support to pass. We have tried it twice and don't get half the votes needed.

We are not in a city, and we are zoned for livestock. I contacted the county for a legal description of "livestock". I explained the situation and told them I wanted something I could take into court if needed. They replied back, after several months and several deferments, that the county defines livestock as Cows, horses, goats, sheep and swine. They specifically said in the email that Chickens and Rabbits are not livestock.

So, this resident could have been raising rabbits and chickens all along. To restrict it would require a vote to amend the restrictions to say "Chickens and Rabbits included".

Since there is not mention of Chickens and Rabbits in the covenants, it is not an HOA issue.

I did say that if we started to receive complaints for odors and noise we would probably have to act, but even then I'm sure what we could do other than refer them to the county ordinance department.

Thoughts?

An HOA has no obligation to follow the definition established by any governmental body (unfortunately).

If an HOA wanted to classify hermit crabs or pet rocks as "livestock" there is no stopping them.

Agreed. At this point in time our CC&R's do not contain a definition of Livestock. So we will use the legal definition I received from the county.

From the county-
Douglas,
In Arizona, the Department of Ag has livestock defined as cattle, equine, sheep, goats and swine. For the most part this is recognized by cities and counties, yet they may have different zoning requirements for various animals. You would have to check with your local city or county to see what animals are permitted in the zone where you are living. I hope this answers your question.

My reply-

I think it does. I'll give you a little more info as to why I ask. I am the President of an HOA. We have 20 properties and they are all approximately 1.5 acres. We are located in an unincorporated area of Maricopa county. We are Zoned RU43.

The Covenant restrictions say "no livestock". We have an elderly couple living here that would like to have chickens and rabbits. I want to allow it but needed that "definition" of what livestock is in case we get flack from other residents.

Thank you! I think this info will help.

From the county-

Douglas,
Neither of those are considered livestock in our regs and if your HOA was written to exclude livestock and these would be allowed in the unicorporated area, it would seem they could keep rabbits and poultry, yet that would be up to you. Take care and have a great fall.[b/]

I'm pretty confident that should a legal challenge happen, we've got it covered.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

... as in hidden? ...

JenniferB14 (Colorado)
Posts: 148

Posted:

what if a newly amended covenant says "no other farm animals" but does not define farm animals? Also household pets are allowed but that is also not defined? All animals are allowed per the zoning.Farm animals is only defined by the Dept of Agriculture that I can find.... the covenant does not refer to livestock at all.

MichelleK5 (New York)
Posts: 161

Posted:

My rural town allows livestock, my HOA does not.
It considers livestock any animal that falls under the towns definition of "livestock", and/or any animal kept for the purpose of producing a product for personal, or commercial use.

It also doesn't allow home based businesses. Example; someone can actually get fined twice if they have chickens (one for having chickens), then for selling the eggs out of their home (business.)

But, if someone bought one chicken for the sole purpose of having it as a pet, then there's nothing my HOA could do.

My towns definition of livestock:
Livestock and livestock products, including cattle, sheep, hogs, goats, horses, poultry, llamas, ratites, such as ostriches, emus, rheas and kiwis, farmed deer, farmed buffalo, fur bearing animals, milk and milk products, eggs, furs, and poultry products.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JenniferB14 on 11/21/2017 9:58 PM
what if a newly amended covenant says "no other farm animals" but does not define farm animals? Also household pets are allowed but that is also not defined? All animals are allowed per the zoning.Farm animals is only defined by the Dept of Agriculture that I can find.... the covenant does not refer to livestock at all.

Is there a specific question you wish to ask?

If our covenants were worded like that, chickens and rabbits would not be allowed. I can't see myself standing in front of a judge saying chickens and rabbits are not farm animals. Same thing with household pets. If you think a judge will agree that a chicken or rooster is a household pet, good luck. Pot belly pigs are very popular as household pets. I can see a judge agreeing with that. That being said, if they define "household pets" to be dogs and cats, rodents and fish, then that is what you get.

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MichelleK5 on 11/22/2017 6:29 AM
My rural town allows livestock, my HOA does not.
It considers livestock any animal that falls under the towns definition of "livestock", and/or any animal kept for the purpose of producing a product for personal, or commercial use.

It also doesn't allow home based businesses. Example; someone can actually get fined twice if they have chickens (one for having chickens), then for selling the eggs out of their home (business.)

But, if someone bought one chicken for the sole purpose of having it as a pet, then there's nothing my HOA could do.

My towns definition of livestock:
Livestock and livestock products, including cattle, sheep, hogs, goats, horses, poultry, llamas, ratites, such as ostriches, emus, rheas and kiwis, farmed deer, farmed buffalo, fur bearing animals, milk and milk products, eggs, furs, and poultry products.

One of us is reading it wrong. The town says "poultry" is considered "livestock" and your HOA has a ban on Livestock. That means no chickens. Doesn't matter if it is a pet or not.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

Live stock:

stock which is alive

as opposed to my 'pet rock'

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Hey PITA ... are my Koi considered livestock .... LOL.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

you DID stock your pond ... are they alive ?

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By PaininyourA on 11/22/2017 7:29 PM
Live stock:

stock which is alive

as opposed to my 'pet rock'

Now we need to define "Stock"!!

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

stock:

that which is available on hand

as opposed to: that which needs to be 'ordered'

SIMPLE

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Stock: The part of the rifle that goes against the shoulder.

Stock: The liquid leftover from cooking that can be reused as seasoning.

Stock: Parts of businesses sold off in equal amounts to create partnerships. the capital raised by a business or corporation through the issue and subscription of shares

Stock: The original form of something manufactured that can be modified.

Stock: A designation for a type or class of race car.

Stock(s): a device for publicly punishing offenders consisting of a wooden frame with holes in which the feet or feet and hands can be locked

It's only simple in your mind.

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

still simple

all your items are 'at hand' and NON live

livestock is stock that is LIVING

(I will assume that the wood of your rifle stock has passed away.)

enough

I give

you win

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

But what about livestock that's stored in a truck on the property?

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By GenoS on 11/27/2017 1:49 PM
But what about livestock that's stored in a truck on the property?

According to our documents, it would against the rules. But rabbits and Chickens are okay!

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/27/2017 8:25 AM

Now we need to define "Stock"!!

Quote:
Posted By PaininyourA on 11/27/2017 10:18 AM
stock:

that which is available on hand

as opposed to: that which needs to be 'ordered'

SIMPLE

Quote:
Posted By PaininyourA on 11/27/2017 12:17 PM
still simple

all your items are 'at hand' and NON live

livestock is stock that is LIVING

(I will assume that the wood of your rifle stock has passed away.)

enough

I give

you win

I think I'm starting to understand your way of thinking.

Woodstock was made of wood. Right? Or is a wood stock made of wood and Woodstock a place/event?

Live stock would imply living, but Livestock implies five types of animals commonly found on farms.

If the mad cow disease killed all of the ranchers cows, could he say " all of my livestock is now dead because of the disease" Or would he have to call them "deadstock" now?

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

I think you are confusing Woodstock with stockwood which is available and ready for your fireplace.

Do we need to define fireplace as a place in which fire is kept or made ?

Made from in stock wood ?!

PaininyourA
Posts: 215

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasM6 on 11/27/2017 11:51 AM
Stock: The part of the rifle that goes against the shoulder.

Stock: The liquid leftover from cooking that can be reused as seasoning.

Stock: Parts of businesses sold off in equal amounts to create partnerships. the capital raised by a business or corporation through the issue and subscription of shares

Stock: The original form of something manufactured that can be modified.

Stock: A designation for a type or class of race car.

Stock(s): a device for publicly punishing offenders consisting of a wooden frame with holes in which the feet or feet and hands can be locked

It's only simple in your mind.

....... as are the windmills .......