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TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Virginia has an open meeting requirement for Associations.
Most Virginia Associations are incorporated.
Corporate code allows Actions without meeting (AWM)
Recently, a complaint was made to the Virginia Common Interest Community Ombudsmans office about use of AWM.

Initially, the Ombudsman said that the AWM was not compliant with the open meeting act.
The Association replied that AWM is compliant with corporate law and authorized in the governing docs.
The Ombudsman determined that no action was required by the Association (hence AWM is allowed).

I'm curious what the legislatures will make of this and if they will take action or not.

Not intended as a discussion on AWMs.
Simply an interesting issue.

See the Ombudsman's decision here: File 2017-01395

See other decisions (all topics) here: Office of the Common Interest Community Ombudsman, Determinations
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
Similar situation in Florida. The general not-for-profit corporation statute (FS 617) permits boards to take actions without a meeting. The condo and HOA statutes, however, supercede FS 617 and define what constitutes a board meeting and that board meetings must be properly noticed and open to all owners. Although not spelled out in so many words, it's generally accepted in Florida that an Action Without Meeting constitutes the conduct of association business without meeting any of the requirements for a "board meeting".

It is an interesting question. Hopefully Virginia will iron out the details with a bit more clarity than Florida did. To my knowledge, in spite of the consensus of Florida's legal community and Property Mangement industry, there have been no court cases or arbitration rulings that have ruled specifically on the issue.
PaininyourA
Posts: 215
Posted:
Actins Without a Meeting generally must be UNANIMOUS and SIGNED.

If unanimous there is no real need for a meeting.

? What is to be discussed if 'unanimity' is achieved ?
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
I read the Ombudsman's decision you provided. I see the author of the decision is an attorney. She wrote, "actions without meetings do not constitute a meeting... " The Virginia Property Owners Association Act at 55-510.1 states, inter alia, "The board of directors shall not use work sessions or other informal gatherings of the board of directors to circumvent the open meeting requirements of this section." It seems to me that state statutes would trump the Bylaws. I think a court would say that the HOA violated this statute. At present, I find the decision legally inadequate.

Virginia is lucky to have sunshine laws for HOA meetings, decision-making, and so on. It is too bad that this state Ombudsman's office seems disinterested in transparency as apparently required by the HOA statutes in Virginia. I wonder how often this office has been overturned in court in recent years.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
I like the decision. Iowa has an open meeting law for condominiums (not HOAs), but meetings require a seven day notice and there's no provision for emergencies (stupid law). One of the ways to deal with urgent situations is action without a meeting. The name contains the key words "without a meeting." The Iowa nonprofit law says that action "may be taken without a meeting if each director signs a consent..." So it does not conflict with a requirement for meetings to be open when there is no actual meeting.

I also lioke Augustin's comment. AWM should not be the usual course of business.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Below is a section from one association's Bylaws. California banned AWM a couple of years ago for the reason outlined in bold. Associations were running amok, holding email or telephone "meetings", but never following up with informing the members present at the next open meeting what had been done. In California, a meeting is defined as being at the same place and time. These AWM are done via email, which isn't at the same time and place. Furthermore, Board meetings are defined by the Davis-Stirling Act as a gathering of a majority of directors at the same time and place to "hear, discuss, or deliberate upon any item of business that is within the authority of the board. "Item of business" means any action within the authority of the board, except those actions the board has validly delegated to any other person or persons, managing agent, officer of the association, or committee of the board comprising less than a majority of the directors. Action is taking a vote or making something happen, discussions are not actions.

Then you run into the problem where all Board members live off site in a small community and technically meet once a quarter.

Section 6.17 Action Without Meeting. Any action by the Board of Directors may be taken without
a meeting if all members of the Board shall individually or collectively consent in writing to such
action. Such written consent or consents shall be filed with the minutes of the proceedings of the
Board and shall have the same force and effect as a unanimous vote of such directors.
Any action so
taken by the Board shall be posted in a prominent place within the Common Area within three (3)
days after all of the written consents have been obtained. If the Common Area consists only of an
easement or is otherwise unsuitable for posting the explanation of the action taken, the governing
body shall communicate said explanation by any means it deems appropriate.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By AugustinD on 11/01/2017 9:29 AM

I think a court would say that the HOA violated this statute.

Augustin,

As in all States, statutes control unless they defer.

The issue here is that statutes appear to conflict with each other.

Everyone agrees that the intend of the open meeting act is to minimize or eliminate AWMs. However, corporate statute, as that Association pointed out, supports AWMs providing that they are unanimous and notated in the next scheduled meeting. Additionally, the property statutes (HOA or COA) don't flat out prohibit AWMs.

Additionally, as the decision points out, the scope of the Ombudsmans office doesn't allow them address corporate code.

Like I said, I'm curious what, if anything, the legislature will do now.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By RichardP13 on 11/01/2017 1:37 PM

California banned AWM a couple of years ago for the reason outlined in bold.

Richard, we had this discussion before.

CA still allows AWMs, but only under limited circumstances (by defining an emergency) and they are now called emergency meetings. The result is the same, an action without a meeting.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JeffT2 on 11/01/2017 12:17 PM

AWM should not be the usual course of business.

Completely Agree
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Jeff, that's a good point about urgent and emergency situations. The Virginia HOA statute says this on the subject: "Notice, reasonable under the circumstances, of special or emergency meetings shall be given contemporaneously with the notice provided members of the association's board of directors or any subcommittee or other committee thereof conducting the meeting."

I presume good judgment is also expected. E.g. a water line breaks. Life and property are clearly at grave risk given the nature of the break. Does the HOA need formal documentation that it voted for the repair to proceed? I say a court would say no. Documenting afterwards would be required.
RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TimB4 on 11/01/2017 3:13 PM
Posted By RichardP13 on 11/01/2017 1:37 PM

California banned AWM a couple of years ago for the reason outlined in bold.


Richard, we had this discussion before.

CA still allows AWMs, but only under limited circumstances (by defining an emergency) and they are now called emergency meetings. The result is the same, an action without a meeting.

There are two different meanings to this. We have had emergencies meetings in the past. You can conduct an AWM in an emergency, but it is not called a meeting, hence, Action Without a Meeting.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:

Tim noted: "I'm curious what the legislatures will make of this and if they will take action or not."

As you Tim noted the State Statues conflict ... therefore, one would hope that the Legislators properly address. I would contend that most likely they will eventually address.
JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880
Posted:
What is the conflict between statutes? The omsbudman's report says: "actions without meetings do not constitute a meeting...". If there is no meeting, then there is no requirement that the non-meeting be open. AWM is action without a meeting.
KarenP1
Posts: 41
Posted:
the office of the common interest community ombudsman cannot read association documents or handle internal matters even if they are mentioned in the poa act, nor handle not for profit statutes. new laws should be enacted to permit them to handle anything which is contained in the poa act. the largest complaint received regards board behavior. I have contact my state delegate to request hoa reform in Virginia due to the current helplessness of owners. boards need to be able to perform their duties, however owners need to be protected from abuse.
thank goodness that my current board has a new president who really wants to do things "right" and is very responsive to home owners.
KarenP1
Posts: 41
Posted:
the office of the common interest community ombudsman cannot read association documents or handle internal matters even if they are mentioned in the poa act, nor handle not for profit statutes. new laws should be enacted to permit them to handle anything which is contained in the poa act. the largest complaint received regards board behavior. I have contact my state delegate to request hoa reform in Virginia due to the current helplessness of owners. boards need to be able to perform their duties, however owners need to be protected from abuse.
thank goodness that my current board has a new president who really wants to do things "right" and is very responsive to home owners.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Any update on this for Virginia HOAs? Our Board and every single committee makes practically all decisions outside of open meetings. In fact, the committees haven't openly met in years, but are given tens of thousands of dollars every year and then secretly decide how that money will be spent.

Requests for Unanimous Written Consents are routinely ignored.

On the rare occasions our Board meets there is never anything posted on an agenda. Our association functions as secretly as possible, and in my humble opinion, deliberately abuses the AWM corporate statute to circumvent the open meeting requirement.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Old Thread.

Since AWMs are still allowed in corporate statutes, then nothing has changed.

It is sad when there are those that abuse AWMs vs. only using it as needed.
The way to fix that is to become involved and, if needed, gather support and replace those who abuse it with those who (hopefully) won't.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
Getting involved doesn't fix this Tim. Any homeowner can be blocked from participating when everything is done through email or in secret meetings.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
The "gathering support" part of Tim's reply worked in my HOA 2 times --12 years apart.* Uniting, organizing, learning your docs & state law, educating other owners. Victory by voting them out at an annual meeting (may take two) or special meeting to recall.

Yes, very hard, steady work & campaigning

* In our condo HOA of 200+ units, we only needed about a dozen - 15 owners to coalesce and make change.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By CfD on 06/30/2024 5:25 AM
Getting involved doesn't fix this Tim. Any homeowner can be blocked from participating when everything is done through email or in secret meetings.

Getting involved can fix this.

The fact that things are going on with AWMs, combined with the fact that the AWMs are not documented (as this is what I am getting from your postings) in the next open meeting minutes (with proof of unanimous consent), is enough to gather others together. You may need to educate others. It is not a quick fix, it takes time and energy (took me three years in my last association) but it does work.

You can also file a complaint with the ombudsman about the failure to properly document the AWMs and that the AWMs, in your opinion, are being used in place of open meetings.
CfD (Virginia)
Posts: 265
Posted:
I've tried to "gather support" in the past. At one time I had 100 out of 256 homeowners sign proxies and support me getting elected to the board. On election night the 5 board members decided "not" to hold the election saying the property manager quit! They then decided instead of our staggered terms they were all elected to a 3 year term, so they were all staying on for additional years. Our BOD will do anything to prevent me from serving on the Board, and that includes character asassination through their neighborhood operatives.

I've reached out to the ombbudsman in the past. The vast majority of her decisions are always in favor of the board. I've asked the Board to view Unanimous Consents in the past, and they have always ignored the request. The Ombudsman has stated to me through email that BOARDS do not have to share Signed Unanimous Consents if they don't have them.

I'm well versed in the HOA laws of Virginia. Open meeting laws are meaningless when Corporate Law allows UWC. There are a billion ways to circumvent open meetings in a Virginia HOA.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
I would agree that if the board doesn't have documentation of unanimous consent, there is nothing to show.

That would be the argument of violating the statute.

If you can't get support to make changes, you may need to consider other options:

1) live with it.
2) Move (I know, easier said than done)
3) consider legal options (again, easier said than done - as it can be a ton of money, energy and splitting of community).

If you can get the support (and you were able to do it once) you can slowly make changes.

This is the reality of it all.
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
"Support" by proxies or signatures is not enough. It takes a small group of unified actors with their eyes all on the same goal, who meet, discuss, interact, bounce ideas off of each other, debate-- just as did the founding patriots of our nation.

Yes, the "lone wolf" approach can work, but it takes much longer.

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