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TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Hello all- this is my first post.
I am the Civic League President of my neighborhood that I have lived in since childhood. We are not a gated community, but have had a neighborhood lake and playground since the Civic League's inception in the mid 1960's.
It has always been a rule that a household's annual Civic League dues are to be paid for the current year in order to use the lake and playground- our rules state that no resident of the neighborhood can be considered a guest. My last two predecessors were not enforcing this at all and the last year and a half since I took over, it has proven difficult to enforce despite several "No Trespassing" signs on the properties. We now also have several adjacent neighborhoods that violators come from, acting as if the signs do not apply to them.
Any ideas here? I may price and propose neighborhood specific signs to see that would help alleviate the problem.
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
The issues you are running into may have been the reasons why others did not enforce.

Without fences and gates, it will be difficult if not impossible to enforce.

My question would be who maintains the lake - the association or the county?
TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Tim,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that the reason for difficult enforcement is because the rules really were not enforced until I took over. There is also the issue of people's lack of consideration for authority, meaning the signs wouldn't apply to *them.*
Our Civic League maintains the property as well as puts in the buoys at the beginning of summer and removes them at the end. We also redid the bulkhead at one portion of the lake for the first time in 40 years this past spring.
The only thing that is locked is the boat ramp....when people join or renew their membership they get the combination to the lock that is changed every year.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
As Tim noted without fence and gates it is very difficult to enforce. You might meet with your local government and police to see what they suggest. My concern would be if anything happened to an individual ... could HOA be held liable. An attorney also could provide info and what signage needed to protect the HOA as much as possible under circumstance.
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
I was not clear if this is an HOA; a Civic League is not an HOA. I know firsthand about this problem and it is not easy to solve.

First, Law Enforcement cannot help unless there are signs posted at entrances to the private property. Barriers are best along with signs because the trespassing becomes flagrant when both sign and barrier is disregarded. Ask police how you can help your neighborhood to prevent trespass. Ours required a sign every X# of feet along the border. But that did not work.

You might be able to get your city and/or media to help by publicizing the fact that you are private property; and that might discourage some. An owner in my area did that by inviting TV media to the property and interviewed the owner regarding the nuisance caused by the public disregarding property rights.

The city could provide public accessway to the lake. That is how my neighborhood solved the problem; they engaged the city in pre-litigation over property boundaries and the City eventually provided public access. That action was preceded by an unrelenting barrage of police calls for assistance with trespassers. At one point, police were summoned when the City Mayor would not obey the No Trespassing Sign and had an encounter with the property monitor. (You can't make this s*** up!)

Absent barriers, you will always have people who will trespass and it is up to the private property owner to be vigilant and do their own self help through constant camera surveillance, monitoring and private enforcement.

If you are an HOA, I would check the insurance and see if they would accept a claim for an injury on the premises that was not protected by a barrier. IMO, you will eventually have to put up a barrier if it is a matter that is important to the neighborhood.

TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Gwen,
Thanks for your response. We are indeed a Civic League as opposed to a HOA. We do have No Trespassing signs around the perimeter of the lake, at the swimming areas and fishing piers and at the playground entrance.
On one side of the lake that faces a adjacent neighborhood, we have the signs sandwiched sideways to give more distance and to not offend those residents.
Years ago, there was not much of a problem until other neighborhoods nearby were developed. Adding to that we are right off of a major roadway (US 13) that takes tourists right off the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel into Virginia Beach/Norfolk.
DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaC3 on 10/22/2017 5:20 PM
Gwen,
Thanks for your response. We are indeed a Civic League as opposed to a HOA. We do have No Trespassing signs around the perimeter of the lake, at the swimming areas and fishing piers and at the playground entrance.
On one side of the lake that faces a adjacent neighborhood, we have the signs sandwiched sideways to give more distance and to not offend those residents.
Years ago, there was not much of a problem until other neighborhoods nearby were developed. Adding to that we are right off of a major roadway (US 13) that takes tourists right off the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel into Virginia Beach/Norfolk.

Contact your local police department and ask them how to enforce "no trespassing"

In many jurisdictions, the presence of a sign is not enough. It takes understanding that one is trespassing. The general approach around here is: Notify someone in person that they are trespassing and get their acknowledgement of understanding. Document this. Further instances can be considered criminal trespass.

Merely call the police on someone being where they shouldn't be and they won't likely respond.
MichelleK5 (New York)
Posts: 161
Posted:
Who owns the property around the lake access? Does the Civic League actually own it, or do you just maintain it?

From what I understand, Civic leagues don't generally have common areas that are owned like the HOA's do, that's why I'm asking.
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
It sounds more like a POA. OP: is that the case? Is it a voluntary POA?
TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
The Civic League owns the property. It was given to us by the developer when the community was built.
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
Is there a corporation that manages its maintenance? Are the owners required to contribute to its maintenance, purchase liability insurance etc?
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaC3 on 10/23/2017 8:31 AM
The Civic League owns the property. It was given to us by the developer when the community was built.


Is the property via your County Records Assessor website shown as Owned by the Civic League or the Local Government on the Title? The same as others have noted generally "Civic Leagues" do not own property, they usually are a contact to help raise money to maintain property owned many times by the local government.
TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
The property is deeded to our Civic League. The yearly dues go towards maintenance, mowing and any projects that need to be done.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaC3 on 10/23/2017 10:24 AM
The property is deeded to our Civic League. The yearly dues go towards maintenance, mowing and any projects that need to be done.


Interesting .... Is the Civic League Incorporated???
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
I take it there is no mandatory fee; it is voluntary contribution by anyone who wants to join the Civic League?

Does the Civic League have a "person" who is responsible for its disposition, such as a corporation or named individuals in a partnership or some such venture. A Civic League without owners is a fictitious entity. How would a fictitious entity secure legitimate enforcement authority either privately or with public tax funds? Who gets the real estate tax bill? Who is liable if someone from the public drowns in the lake? I also wonder if this is a Developer-constructed lake or whether it is a public waterbody "owned" by the state? If the Developer deeded it to the Civic League, was it part of the HOA common property or was it privately held by the Developer as not part of the HOA common property?

This setup sounds like it should be a POA which is set up, legally, in a similar way to not-for-profit corporate HOA's. In fact, my state (FL) recently added POA's into the language governing HOA's as being equivalent in intent and meaning under the statute.

It sounds like there is no premises liability insurance purchased by the Civic League as you stated the expenses were limited to maintenance. Frankly, I would never join a Civic League and assume the risk of owning lake property that the public had physical access to.
JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GwenG on 10/23/2017 11:01 AM
I take it there is no mandatory fee; it is voluntary contribution by anyone who wants to join the Civic League?

Does the Civic League have a "person" who is responsible for its disposition, such as a corporation or named individuals in a partnership or some such venture. A Civic League without owners is a fictitious entity. How would a fictitious entity secure legitimate enforcement authority either privately or with public tax funds? Who gets the real estate tax bill? Who is liable if someone from the public drowns in the lake? I also wonder if this is a Developer-constructed lake or whether it is a public waterbody "owned" by the state? If the Developer deeded it to the Civic League, was it part of the HOA common property or was it privately held by the Developer as not part of the HOA common property?

This setup sounds like it should be a POA which is set up, legally, in a similar way to not-for-profit corporate HOA's. In fact, my state (FL) recently added POA's into the language governing HOA's as being equivalent in intent and meaning under the statute.

It sounds like there is no premises liability insurance purchased by the Civic League as you stated the expenses were limited to maintenance. Frankly, I would never join a Civic League and assume the risk of owning lake property that the public had physical access to.


Gwen POA and HOA are virtually the same. In some State Statutes they are referred to as HOA (Home Owner Associations) while in other States they are referred to as POA (Property Owner Associations). Virginia calls them POA's: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title55/chapter26/

GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
Gwen POA and HOA are virtually the same. In some State Statutes they are referred to as HOA (Home Owner Associations) while in other States they are referred to as POA (Property Owner Associations). Virginia calls them POA's: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title55/chapter26/

Yeah that is probably why POA's are now incorporated by specific reference as regulated by the HOA statute in FL. "A rose by any other name..."
TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
We are not a POA- we are a Civic League!! The property is owned by the Civic League and is restricted for use to those who have paid their dues for the year. Per our By-Laws, membership in the Civic League is only eligible for those who reside in the neighborhood. Example: When I first became President, one of our Board Members, without telling me moved out of the neighborhood and rented out his home. I had to tell him that since he no longer lives in the neighborhood, per our By-Laws he is no longer eligible for membership and had to resign.
We are a Corporation and have our paperwork and dues for the State Board of Corporations current.
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
That explains the structure, which is corporate and voluntary. If it is not a POA, then membership is not mandatory.

Going back to the original concern about trespassers, it is still not clear if the CL "owns" the lakebody. If it does not, CL probably has to provide access to the public.

Regardless of the lakebody public or private ownership, if CL owns and maintains the areas adjacent to and accessing the lake, there is substantial liability to the voluntary members of the CL if trespassers from the public have an accident on CL lake/property. CL should take action to provide signage, an effective barrier and secure insurance.
TeresaC3 (Virginia)
Posts: 9
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By GwenG on 10/24/2017 10:06 AM

Going back to the original concern about trespassers, it is still not clear if the CL "owns" the lakebody. If it does not, CL probably has to provide access to the public.

Regardless of the lakebody public or private ownership, if CL owns and maintains the areas adjacent to and accessing the lake, there is substantial liability to the voluntary members of the CL if trespassers from the public have an accident on CL lake/property. CL should take action to provide signage, an effective barrier and secure insurance.

Gwen,
I cannot be more clear than this
We own the lake and playground!! We have No Trespassing signs all over both properties. We have Civic League Property Rules, which state that anyone using the properties does so AT THEIR OWN RISK!! and By-Laws that state who is eligible for membership .
As I have posted, my frustration is the fact that despite the signage, people dismiss the signage with the "it doesn't apply to me" kind of thinking.
My idea is to upgrade the signage to state "Civic League Members Only."
GwenG (Florida)
Posts: 669
Posted:
Well good luck with that
TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059
Posted:
Teresa,

Realistically, if the current signs are not working, then newer signage probably won't work either.

The way to fix the issue is with a fence and gate.

I understand the desire not to do this.

I wish I had better advice. I don't.
DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By TeresaC3 on 10/24/2017 2:48 PM

Gwen,
I cannot be more clear than this
We own the lake and playground!! We have No Trespassing signs all over both properties. We have Civic League Property Rules, which state that anyone using the properties does so AT THEIR OWN RISK!! and By-Laws that state who is eligible for membership .
As I have posted, my frustration is the fact that despite the signage, people dismiss the signage with the "it doesn't apply to me" kind of thinking.
My idea is to upgrade the signage to state "Civic League Members Only."

If the current signs are not working what makes you think new signs will?

My suggestion-
Make sure you have the legally required "no trespassing" and "private property" signs in place. You may know the requirement, you may not. I don't know. Once you know you have the correct verbiage and the correct amount of signs placed in the correct locations, start watching to see when people are going pass the signs. Then contact local law enforcement and have them remove the people hopefully with a hefty fine.

When an action is allowed to continue for many years, it's very hard to stop it, even if it's illegal. I'm kind of fighting the same battle with our pool. People in the area have used it for years believing it's a "community pool" for more than just our HOA. Very hard to do. The first call we made to the Sheriff was useless. We discovered that even though they we have one legal sign inside the pool area, one legal sign outside the gate, and a non legal sign as you drive in that states the pool is for our community only and all others are trespassing, AND they had to jimmy the lock or climb the fence to get in, it was not enough to get a citation written. We are working on the signage now.
MichelleK5 (New York)
Posts: 161
Posted:
We have signs all over the area (we also have a private lake) where access is available that it's Private Property, No Trespassing.

Also have a metal field/ranch type of gate between the trees in the boat launch area. It has a lock and and only the homeowners have the key. Again, there are No Trespassing signs on the gate.

Our community is small though, about 35 homes and everyone knows each other. If someone is using the lake that shouldn't be, we call the police.

Here's a link to the type of gate we have http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Hang-a-Farm-GateFence/

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