fight now or Pay and sue back

Started by TimL3 • 24 replies • 1403 views

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TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Our HOA broke our door and called a plumber on a non-emergent situation. They then put the charges of locksmith and plumbing on us. Although we pay the premium in full, but they claim that there is no separate account for units, so the premium became not enough. Now they issued a lawyer's letter to us and threaten to accelerate the interest if we don't pay in time. So, should we fight with them now (since they said they would sue us in court) or pay the money first and sue them to get the money back?

The difference is the interest won't accumulate in the second way.

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

what does YOUR attorney say ?

once THEY mention attorney YOU need one

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Haven't found one though I am going to. Because it is Sunday today.

Just to see if anyone with similar experience here.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

File a counter suit if they decide to sue. Your much better off counter-suing. Should not take a lawyer to file it. Just respond if they choose to sue you. Suing your HOA is not a good idea. However, them suing you opens the door for a countersuit against them.

Don't hire a real estate lawyer. A HOA is incorporated. Best to hire a lawyer with contract law experience.

Former HOA President

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

After careful review, I thought the key point is whether it was an emergency situation. There was a leak from Toilet ring causing the downstairs ceiling wet and bowling out. Once we knew, we notified our tenants to stop using the toilet and the downstairs even called the fire department and firemen turned off the shut off valve. I think from this moment it was no longer an emergency. But because there was still some residue water dripping, downstairs called HOA without letting me know and HOA got a plumber and a locksmith, a policeman to the site, breaking into the unit and confirmed the leak. The plumber then fixed the leak at an emergency charge and locksmith charged us too.

So, does this sound like an emergency? I think after firemen turned off the shut off valve, it was no longer an emergency, therefore HOA should not break in and we don't want to pay for the locksmith and THEIR plumber at an emergency rate.

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

This doesn't make sense the way it's written - are you saying the HOA called a locksmith to open the door to your unit so non-emergency plumbing could be done and are now asking (demanding?) that you pay for the locksmith and plumbing services?

If so, why do I smell a backstory you aren't telling us? Usually, there's an attempt to contact the owner requesting access to your unit if work needs to be done to the common area. This sounds like you live in a condo or townhouse and something was going on in the adjoining unit - and if that's the case, how do you know it wasn't an emergency? Why break into your home otherwise?

Then you talk about premiums - do you mean assessments? And what's this business about separate accounts for units? Did you balk at paying the assessments because the HOA also wants you to pay for this work? If so, you never use assessments as a bargaining chip - you're legally obligated to pay those, so withholding them only gets you in more trouble. Depending on how your collection policy is worded, the HOA may have a policy of taking interest onto delinquent assessments. All of that you should already know as a homeowner.

So.....keep paying the assessment and duke this out in small claims court (where you don't need an attorney) - if you win, you can also request reimbursement of any costs you incurred to sue. Or talk to your insurance company - you may be able to file a claim and they can duke it out with your HOA or its insurance company.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

I was typing my response as you were typing yours - and I wish you'd written all this from the beginning. Context is important when discussing HOA issues (at least to me) because the addition of certain information can turn a response on its head.

Now then - when you learned of the leak and had the fire department turn off the valve, did you call the property manager and tell him/her what you'd done and ask if there's anything else they needed from you? You might not think it was an emergency after the water was turned off, but you did mention residue water - what's residue to you might not be the case to someone else. Did you call your neighbor and check on him or her or go over there to find out for yourself what was going on? Did your neighbor have your number so he or she could call you?

If the property manager had your number and didn't call, I would agree this was a communication breakdown you shouldn't be responsible for - someone could have told you they needed to get inside your home to do the work and arrangements could have been made at that point. You might want to contact the association attorney first to see if this can get resolved without going to court, otherwise, head to small claims and document what you did, then let the judge decide.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

I have dirty/black water (feces and urine) dripping through my ceiling it is a dire emergency.

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By SheliaH on 10/15/2017 2:39 PM
This doesn't make sense the way it's written - are you saying the HOA called a locksmith to open the door to your unit so non-emergency plumbing could be done and are now asking (demanding?) that you pay for the locksmith and plumbing services?

--> Yes

If so, why do I smell a backstory you aren't telling us? Usually, there's an attempt to contact the owner requesting access to your unit if work needs to be done to the common area. This sounds like you live in a condo or townhouse and something was going on in the adjoining unit - and if that's the case, how do you know it wasn't an emergency? Why break into your home otherwise?

--> Sorry for not clear enough. My downstairs neighbor called HOA without letting me know. So I thought it was over when I told him I had turned off the water and no one was going to use the toilet that night (no more leaking) and MY plumber would come next morning. But my neighbor, either did not want to wait, or thought it might be due to other parts (such as pipe), still called HOA without notifying me.

Then you talk about premiums - do you mean assessments? And what's this business about separate accounts for units? Did you balk at paying the assessments because the HOA also wants you to pay for this work? If so, you never use assessments as a bargaining chip - you're legally obligated to pay those, so withholding them only gets you in more trouble. Depending on how your collection policy is worded, the HOA may have a policy of taking interest onto delinquent assessments. All of that you should already know as a homeowner.

-->Yes, I meant assessments. I thought HOA should bill me separately for regular assessment (I still pay on time) vs special assessments (this cost that I never paid). So now the cost appeared on my account as assessment.

So.....keep paying the assessment and duke this out in small claims court (where you don't need an attorney) - if you win, you can also request reimbursement of any costs you incurred to sue. Or talk to your insurance company - you may be able to file a claim and they can duke it out with your HOA or its insurance company.

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

I did not know the HOA action until they finished. My tenants were told to not stay in the unit by the firemen (that was why no one was at home when the HOA plumber came).

I notified my neighbor of our plan to fix the leak next morning and water had been shut off, and firemen probably also visited his unit to check it out, so he should be aware of the situation.

The property manager did called us, but because I was at a loud place, I did not hear the ring and he did not leave a msg.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

Turning the water off does NOT stop the emergency. Just because the water isn't on doesn't mean the sitting water won't do damage. I know first hand having dealt with a few ceiling collapses. If there was dripping water coming from my ceiling, I would consider that an emergency.

The charges for the plumber/locksmith may extend to you as it's not something the HOA maintains. Most likely it is written in your documents that the owners are responsible for what is between the walls. The HOA part in this was taking emergency action based on the neighbor's report/concern.

Now you could ask them to pay that cost. However, it's most likely not going to be accepted. Someone's got to pay the Bill and the HOA is going to argue they aren't responsible for interiors. They are responsible notifying you about the situation. Just as much you were responsible for telling them.

Former HOA President

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MelissaP1 on 10/15/2017 5:08 PM
Turning the water off does NOT stop the emergency. Just because the water isn't on doesn't mean the sitting water won't do damage. I know first hand having dealt with a few ceiling collapses. If there was dripping water coming from my ceiling, I would consider that an emergency.

The charges for the plumber/locksmith may extend to you as it's not something the HOA maintains. Most likely it is written in your documents that the owners are responsible for what is between the walls. The HOA part in this was taking emergency action based on the neighbor's report/concern.

Now you could ask them to pay that cost. However, it's most likely not going to be accepted. Someone's got to pay the Bill and the HOA is going to argue they aren't responsible for interiors. They are responsible notifying you about the situation. Just as much you were responsible for telling them.

OK. Then, is it legal to ban me from using the community swimming pool because there is a "balance" on my account due to this cost?

And my ceiling in utility room was collapsing due to water overflowing from upstairs AC and a huge hole was created because of it. And it took the HOA 3 month to take action to repair it. Why was they so quick in this situation? Is this a fact of discrimination?

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

So, firemen responded and left with some treatment, this fact still cannot establish the argument that it is no longer an emergency??

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimL3 on 10/15/2017 5:27 PM

If you're not current in paying your assessments, then the HOA can suspend privileges like using the community swimming pool (you really need to read your collection policy so you'll know exactly what happens if you don't pay assessments - if you have questions, you can go to the board or property manager)

The ceiling situation was certainly unfortunate and should have been fixed as soon as possible, but did you ever ask why it took three months? However, that's not the current issue - the locksmith and plumbing bills are, so stay on topic. If you feel the firemen's leaving the property after shutting off the valve doesn't make this an emergency any longer, that may be something you'll have to argue in court - and at this point, that's probably where you're heading. You can also bring up the stuff about being in a loud area and not hearing the phone and see how the judge looks at it.

(Personally, if I'd heard about my toilet leaking and possibly affecting my neighbor's unit, I might have tried to go home immediately to see what was going on or at least told my tenants to stick around in case someone from the HOA showed up or describe what was happening, but that's just me...)

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

GreggT (Florida)
Posts: 77

Posted:

In all multistory HOA's I'm familiar with, there is a requirement that access be provided in case of emergency in the way of a key, code or what ever. In a couple cases owners have balked and refused to provide this and the HOA will call a locksmith if it deems necessary to correct the problem. That bill is the owners responsibility. As has been mentioned if I had water coming down from the unit above, you darn right it is an emergency.
I think there is much more to this story than you are conveying.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimL3 on 10/15/2017 10:45 AM
Our HOA broke our door and called a plumber on a non-emergent situation. They then put the charges of locksmith and plumbing on us. Although we pay the premium in full, but they claim that there is no separate account for units, so the premium became not enough. Now they issued a lawyer's letter to us and threaten to accelerate the interest if we don't pay in time. So, should we fight with them now (since they said they would sue us in court) or pay the money first and sue them to get the money back?

The difference is the interest won't accumulate in the second way.

You are being vague in your question. I am guessing that you are in a condo, therefore, read your CC&R's. having worked security in a condo I can tell you that any type of water intrusion is considered an emergency and is treated as such.
Honestly, you need an attorney to sort this out.

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

locksmith = $200
plumber = $600

attorney = $2000 (as a retainer to BEGIN)

D'OH

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

In our high rise, it's pretty much as Gregg states above. And when new folks move in they sign a disclaimer letting our PM have key/s combo in case of emergency (has ALWAYS been water). OR the new owner can sign saying they won't and understand that any damage to their front door to gain access will be their responsibility to pay IF they're to blame for the water intrusion. AND a separate board resolution has them pay for our building engineer's overtime if after hours. They also must pay other costs that their problem caused to others or our common area.

IF the Owner refuses to pay this assessment, our CC&Rs do permit us to remove common area privileges, e.g., pool, visitor parking.

So, Tim3, you need to read and understand your own HOA documents.

(The item, per Sheila, that the HOA did not fix fast enough for you is unfortunate, but has NOTHING to do with your current issue. And it does NOT show any kind of discrimination against you.)

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimL3 on 10/15/2017 2:34 PM

Once we knew, we notified our tenants to stop using the toilet and the downstairs even called the fire department and firemen turned off the shut off valve. I think from this moment it was no longer an emergency.

Ahh, but did you tell the MC or anyone on the Board that this occurred and, if you did tell them, when and how did you tell them?

DouglasM6 (Arizona)
Posts: 724

Posted:

TIM, I think you're fighting a losing battle. If the downstairs neighbor still had water dripping then there's no way to call it a "non-emergency". Only in your eyes. I think had you told everyone that the leak had been stopped and it was only residual water, you might have been better off, but even that requires someone trusting your word.

You said, that once you realized the water was leaking down into the lower unit and causing damage you instructed the residents to stop using the toilet. Wrong move. THAT is when you should have called a plumber for an emergency repair. The fact that you didn't erases all credibility in my opinion. I would not go into court if I were you.

And on the other stuff, you need to read your governing documents. It may say the HOA can apply payments to the fines and charges FIRST, then, once those are paid, apply the monies to your normal assessments. The documents will also tell you if have to be current in order to use the pool.

Good luck.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I agree with Douglas. Calling a plumber is the first thing to do in a high rise.

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

We did call a plumber and arranged for his visit the earliest next morning. Because he won't come until next morning, we told our tenant not to use the toilet until fixed. So our tenant left to avoid using the toilet, esp after firemen turned off the shut-off valve. So there is no one openning the door when HOA plumber came. So he called and a locksmith came. So ...

AND we did notified our neighbor that tomorrow morning early our plumber would come and no one will use the toilet and water has been shut off.

Actually later the neighbor mentioned that he was not sure it was our toilet or the pipe. If it is the pipe, HOA had to take action. But he is no long living there and I don't think he will give any record of his words to us to use in court.

I think the biggest mistake was that we were not able to make the neighbor believe that it has been taken care of and it was only residue water. In fact the HOA plumber did not do a good job and he came back again a week later.

TimL3 (Maryland)
Posts: 18

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/16/2017 3:53 PM

Ahh, but did you tell the MC or anyone on the Board that this occurred and, if you did tell them, when and how did you tell them?

We did not even know HOA had gotten involved at that time.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,062

Posted:

TimL,

The fact that the Association wasn't informed of your repairs (at the time) and that there was still water dripping, I think that the Association did its due diligence in entering your property and addressing the leak (as they perceived it).

Therefore, to answer your question, pay now or potentially pay later, I would pay now.

I say this because there appears to be gray area in what the Association knew and when it knew it. Therefore, in my laymans opinion, I'm not positive that a court would side with you 100% and you would likely have to pay some if not all of the charges.

GuyM1 (Ohio)
Posts: 318

Posted:

So what did the Plumber do? Change the wax ring? Did the Plumber see that the water was shut-off? Plumber would have had to turn the water back on to check for a leak...so did plumber do more than he needed to? I don't consider a wax ring with the water shut off to be an emergency. Maybe you could take the plumber to small claims And say when he entered your unit and saw the water was off he had no right to go farther. I'm guessing the HOA didn't want to pay the plumber for showing up and not doing anything in that it would make them responsible for the Plumber. Funny how the Association can spend your money without worrying about the cost...maybe a little over inflated? Did they try calling the tenant?

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