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SusanM28 (South Carolina)
Posts: 3
Posted:
Our Home Owners Association's Property Management Company (PMC) was sued in State Supreme Court for practicing law without a license. The PMC lost the case. I discovered this fact via a credible professional article online. Does the PMC have a duty to inform its HOA clients of this fact? I am concerned that this scenario may negatively affect our HOA's active legal collection cases that may have been filed and acted upon erroneously by the PMC, making those actions void. Is this something to be concerned about?
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
I know the Community Association Institute has a program where property managers for HOAs can earn some sort of certification, and I would think part of that includes adhering to some sort of code of ethics that might address this issue. Otherwise, you'll have to check and see if property managers are regulated by some sort of agency in your area and ask them. If not, you'll have to pull out your contract and read it see what it says regarding illegal/unethical behavior.

If that doesn't work, why don't you just ask the company what's being done to ensure this sort of thing won't happen with other clients - if you found out about this, I suspect others will, so they have to know these type of questions are coming.

If the case didn't involve your association, I wouldn't worry about it - unless YOU"VE been asking them "is XYZ legal" questions. I'd be more concerned as to whether they're fulfilling the contract with your association and are you satisfied with their quality of work. I would think whoever was doing all this is no longer with the company anyway.

And make sure YOUR board isn't asking legal advice (which is sort of what you're asking here). Generally, property managers can give you options, but it's up to the board to make sure they're working with complete and accurate information - and that they're getting it from qualified people. You want an answer to a legal question, go to an attorney - that's why they were invented.


If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550
Posted:
I'm with Sheila. I especially agree you should review the contract with the PMC & your HOA. But, also, are you saying your PMC is engaged in trying to get collections from delinquent owners vs. an HOA collections attorney?

Welcome to the Forum. Are you on the board, Susan?
SusanM28 (South Carolina)
Posts: 3
Posted:

Many thanks to both KerryL1 and SheilaH for your responses. You have both offered sensible suggestions.

Yes, I am on the HOA Board of Directors. I am asking these questions because I take my fiduciary duties and responsibilities to all of our community home owners very seriously and want to ensure that our Board follows the "straight and narrow" as well.

To try to answer your question, PMC was engaged in trying to obtain collections from delinquent owners vs. an HOA collections attorney. The PMC is contracted by a multitude of HOAs in this area. I do not know which one(s)is/are affected by the PMC's actions. Our HOA is actively seeking payment for delinquent accounts. I am wondering at this point if our current HOA delinquencies are being pursued in the appropriate legal manner. We have received no info whatsoever from the PMC regarding the lawsuit or communication as to whether our HOA's pursuit of collections was/was not involved.
SusanM28 (South Carolina)
Posts: 3
Posted:

Many thanks to both KerryL1 and SheilaH for your responses. You have both offered sensible suggestions.

Yes, I am on the HOA Board of Directors. I am asking these questions because I take my fiduciary duties and responsibilities to all of our community home owners very seriously and want to ensure that our Board follows the "straight and narrow" as well.

To try to answer your question, PMC was engaged in trying to obtain collections from delinquent owners vs. an HOA collections attorney. The PMC is contracted by a multitude of HOAs in this area. I do not know which one(s)is/are affected by the PMC's actions. Our HOA is actively seeking payment for delinquent accounts. I am wondering at this point if our current HOA delinquencies are being pursued in the appropriate legal manner. We have received no info whatsoever from the PMC regarding the lawsuit or communication as to whether our HOA's pursuit of collections was/was not involved.
GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276
Posted:
This arrangement became bad news in Florida. So much so that updates to the statutes this year now prevent a management company and a condo association from using the same attorneys. A lawyer either works for the association or the management company, not both.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Susan

Most SC laws are slanted to protect the corporation versus individuals. Our HOA uses a very well known SC law firm (Columbia based) that has a division dedicated to collecting from non-dues payers.

I have never heard of a SC case against a PM or HOA for practicing law without a license. This seems to be a FL thingy.

Email me personally and I will be glad to give you the name of the law firm.

[email protected]
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanM28 on 10/14/2017 1:35 PM

Many thanks to both KerryL1 and SheilaH for your responses. You have both offered sensible suggestions.

Yes, I am on the HOA Board of Directors. I am asking these questions because I take my fiduciary duties and responsibilities to all of our community home owners very seriously and want to ensure that our Board follows the "straight and narrow" as well.

To try to answer your question, PMC was engaged in trying to obtain collections from delinquent owners vs. an HOA collections attorney. The PMC is contracted by a multitude of HOAs in this area. I do not know which one(s)is/are affected by the PMC's actions. Our HOA is actively seeking payment for delinquent accounts. I am wondering at this point if our current HOA delinquencies are being pursued in the appropriate legal manner. We have received no info whatsoever from the PMC regarding the lawsuit or communication as to whether our HOA's pursuit of collections was/was not involved.
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Where I live, HOAs are nonprofit corporations. Because they are corporations, the state court rules where I live require all HOAs to be represented by attorneys in any state court proceeding. Collections cases are filed in state court where I live. So all the HOAs in my state use attorneys for collections.

I googled and think I found the South Carolina Supreme Court opinion to which you refer. Fascinating. It is one of the finest examples of amateurism and incompetence by a management company I have seen this year. You should be able to go to your magistrate court and ask for a list of all cases filed with your HOA as the plaintiff. The party representing your HOA as "counsel" should also be prominent on each case's paper trail. Is the management company or its employee who listed as "counsel" or similar? If so, then what this PMC is doing with your HOA is the same as what it did with other HOAs, and it is continuing in the unauthorized practice of law. What does this do to the status of each collections case your HOA has in court? I am not sure. For now, I would not leap to the conclusion that the case is invalidated. Instead, I suggest your HOA hire a collections attorney immediately and let him or her sort things out. Instruct the PMC to cooperate, at no charge, with the new HOA collections attorney and otherwise, take no further action on any collections cases it has filed in any court until further notice.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
In SC any member of the BOD can represent the HOA in a Magistrates Court (Small Claims Court) action. I think there is a $40 filing fee. This is usually the first step beyond "pay us now" letters from the BOD or MC that an HOA takes.

We bypass Magistrates Court and start with the lawyer who for $75 sends a letter threatening legal action including liens, credit reporting, and foreclosure. Most want to settle after they receive the letter. We have only ever had to write off one due to bankruptcy. We have never gone the foreclosure route and I expect/advise we never do so.

Augustin

Please send me the link you found.

Thanks.
JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265
Posted:
Augustan

I found it. It basically said a PM cannot act as the "agent" for an HOA but a member of the HOA BOD can.
SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By SusanM28 on 10/14/2017 1:35 PM

Many thanks to both KerryL1 and SheilaH for your responses. You have both offered sensible suggestions.

Yes, I am on the HOA Board of Directors. I am asking these questions because I take my fiduciary duties and responsibilities to all of our community home owners very seriously and want to ensure that our Board follows the "straight and narrow" as well.

To try to answer your question, PMC was engaged in trying to obtain collections from delinquent owners vs. an HOA collections attorney. The PMC is contracted by a multitude of HOAs in this area. I do not know which one(s)is/are affected by the PMC's actions. Our HOA is actively seeking payment for delinquent accounts. I am wondering at this point if our current HOA delinquencies are being pursued in the appropriate legal manner. We have received no info whatsoever from the PMC regarding the lawsuit or communication as to whether our HOA's pursuit of collections was/was not involved.

That may be an issue because your board should already have a handle on how delinquencies are being handled instead of leaving everything to the management company (something far too many associations do because it's easier, I guess). In our association, our management company primary responsibility regarding delinquencies was to send out late notices - no response after 60 days, it went to our association attorney. There was a time where the property manager would get bankruptcy notices and the collections department manager would ask the attorney not to make an appearance on our behalf. He meant well, as some of those notices were for chapter 7 and we'd likely eat the account anyway, so he wanted to save us some money. We stopped that because it didn't cost us that much for the attorney to make an appearance, and as treasurer, I wanted to be sure if there were ANY assets available, the association could at least try to get some money back.

Sometimes people would call the management company and ask for a payment plan - the company used to set those up, but we stopped that too, saying the Board was to review and approve all payment plans. We made that change in our collection policy which is sent every year to homeowners along with the upcoming year's budget. We wanted approval because we found some accounts were sending in $50 or less on delinquent accounts of several hundred dollars and it was taking too long for them to pay off (even then, people would still default).

We were fortunate in that our management company was well acquainted with the Fair Credit Reporting Act and Fair Debt Collections Act so they wouldn't do anything stupid, but we also got fairly detailed notes on each account every month with the management report. I'd review those notes and if anything looked weird, I'd ask for clarification, and if we needed to fix something quickly, we would do it. Our association attorney has a background in collections so he helped us evaluate our collection policy every year (as we evaluated his firm's performance in collecting).

THAT'S how you keep track of who's doing what - it's not about micromanaging, but educating yourself on what you can and can't do, along with the people you pay to do the dirty work. Earlier I mentioned the Community Association Institute - it has several brochures and books on collections for HOAs you can use to evaluate your own collections - I suggest your group get a few copies and read them so you won't be so dependent on the property manager. Remember they work for you, not the other way around.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius
MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836
Posted:
It's important to know how your lien process works in your state. Some states filing a lien does not require a lawyer and others it is required for a HOA to have a lawyer. You may be able to use a legal service if available to file. The cost of hiring the legal service or lawyer is to be part of the lien. The PMC were they filing liens for the HOA?

Lawyer told me that since the HOA is incorporated that it must be represented by a lawyer or a designated representative from the HOA. Don't think many HOA's opt for a non-legal professional to represent them in court. So it's usually a lawyer or a legal service.

The PMC should have it's own lawyer. Our HOA used their lawyer because of billing purposes. It was easier to tell our accountant firm to file a lien via their lawyer. It saved us time and money. However, we the HOA did have to sign the paperwork and vote to approve.

If your happy with the MC on other issues, then I would not have them responsible for the legal stuff. The HOA should start filing it's own paperwork with their own lawyer. Just remember that lawyer is NOT for individual members. It is for the entire HOA.

Former HOA President
AugustinD
Posts: 5,144
Posted:
Quote:
Posted By JohnC46 on 10/14/2017 7:40 PM

I found it. It basically said a PM cannot act as the "agent" for an HOA but a member of the HOA BOD can.


In the part about agency, the SC Supreme Court was referring to magistrate's court. Subsequently the Court spoke of how the PMC would then file magistrate's judgments in circuit court. South Carolina requires corporations to be represented by an attorney at the circuit court level.

In South Carolina, once a magistrate court judgment is filed in circuit court, the judgment becomes a circuit court judgment. I think a circuit court judgment removes the legal right of the homeowner to sell the home.

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