Party Wall Nightmare

Started by JustinB6 • 18 replies • 2403 views

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JustinB6 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Hello everyone. My wife and I were finally able to buy our first home a little over a year ago. We own and live in a town home. Recently the adjoining unit switched ownership, due to the previous owner passing away. The property was given to one of their relatives. The new owner seemed to stroll in with a huge chip on her shoulder. This “new neighbor” of ours hit the ground running, by immediately renovating the place. As she was renovating, specifically the demo to the bathroom, they discovered tons of mold when they ripped out the old shower. I was unaware of any of this. I saw the contractor in passing and he was making a joke about how hard he was working. He mentioned that there must of been a slow leak in the bathroom and it was a bear to remove the mold that developed. The contractor said he removed the mold by “slathering it in bleach and replaced a beam he couldn't clean. I thought, well sucks for them. I was already not entirely pleased with the jackhammering being done at 8am sharp.

Shortly thereafter, I received an extremely concerned phone call from the HOA president. The HOA president was saying that the new owner/ neighbor had contacted them to inform her, as they were renovating they found that a small section of my firewall appeared to have been cut out and a piece of plywood was now in its place. They also claim there is “black mold” present on the party wall.

Instead of documenting it in any way, or notifying myself, so I could see it, the contractor walled it up, placed a shower in, tiled, and painted the wall in question. Now this new neighbor was demanding that the HOA have my wife and myself pay to have our kitchen torn out, so that the necessary repairs can be made. They also want us to pay for said repairs.

Neither the HOA, my home warranty or home insurance will cover the “exploratory” demo or the requested repair. I sincerely do not believe there is a actual issue. I would not put my family at risk. The HOA wants to force my family into having an IDR or ADR to be involved. These arbitrations come at a relatively significant cost. I wish to abstain from any action legal or otherwise without actual legal proof a compromise in the firewall exists. The HOA is now insisting that this the requested repair work has to happen as soon as possible. The HOA scheduled a home inspector to come out to assess the situation.

There have never been any meetings held to discuss any of this. I was not asked what date or time was convenient for me, for this inspection to take place. The new neighbor also sent the HOA president 2 pictures she took using a fiber optic camera, where she cut a hole in her wall and firewall to document the presence of mold on our firewall. Once again, I was not informed of this when it was taking place, only after the fact via that HOA president, not the other owner that was taking these pictures. During this whole process, my wife and I have been asking to have a meeting with the board to personally discuss the issues. It seemed the emails were getting out of hand. Our request for that meeting was never acknowledged or addressed, despite our numerous requests.

Here we stand, with the HOA only advancing one members agenda. We are told via email and not official document, that we need to let the home inspection go forward. We are to pay for this repair, we need to do it all on the HOA’s discretion of timeline.

Has anyone ever heard of anything like this happening? Is this even legal? Can they really force me to do anything? This demo of our kitchen and subsequent repair will be a serious financial hardship for my family. Any thoughts, suggestions or advice?

Thanks for reading my Novel,

JT

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

What does your Party Wall agreement say? I've seen them be separate documents apart from the CCRs, in which case the agreement does not include the association as a party to it (in which case the assoc. has no standing to demand anything), and I've also seen such agreements embedded into the CCRs as part and parcel of the covenants (in which case maybe it is a party to the agreement).

Read your documents carefully. The answer to your question is probably found there.

GenoS (Florida)
Posts: 4,276

Posted:

I'll also add that without proof or communication with you by them while all this was going on might shield you, but in that case you might need a lawyer to help. You might need an attorney anyway.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

It's not uncommon for an opening to be left in party walls during construction.
The party wall should have been properly filled with brick prior to dry walling. However, there are contractors that will not do this and simply slap up plywood and drywall.

This is a hazard for each home as there is now no fire break between the two residences.

This is also likely a shared cost for you and your neighbor to address (but you will have to read your governing documents to be sure).

Based on what you provided, it sounds like you and your neighbor are not friendly toward each other. Therefore, you may end up in court trying to get shared expenses ironed out.

Bottom line, it needs to be addressed.
It's addressed by removing drywall from both sides, removing the plywood and filling the area properly with concrete blocks. The reason it has to be done from both sides is to ensure the bricks are properly pointed.

Good luck.

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/04/2017 7:08 AM
It's not uncommon for an opening to be left in party walls during construction.
The party wall should have been properly filled with brick prior to dry walling.................
It's addressed by removing drywall from both sides, removing the plywood and filling the area properly with concrete blocks. The reason it has to be done from both sides is to ensure the bricks are properly pointed.

What?

What needs to be done is dependant on the type of construction. Likely all that is neccesary is for the plywood to be removed and replaced with Type X drywall and at the minimum fire taped.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Mark,

Keep in mind that my town home is in Virginia and needs to have concrete block between the homes. Hence, that was my experience.

However, your point is made.

Check local building codes.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

How is these homes set up? Are you like a condo or townhomes stuck together? We have a few single family homes that do share a wall. The HOA has not a thing to do with anything structural or house related. We just control the land around the homes and outside appearance. (Ie paint colors..). So need more information on how this shared wall thing works and if the HOA is responsible for home structure issues.

Here is the question I would pose... What happens if there is a fire and it is found your fire walls were compromised? Who pays then? Will you have to split costs/expenses? Something to ask your insurance carrier. I would even ask the fire marshal about fire wall requirements and mold issues. It's also a good idea to ask code enforcement as well.

Not all black mold is "bad". It's pretty easy to cure with some bleach combinations. So don't go panicking cause you hear "Black mold". Not all of it is the toxic kind. Everyone's home has mold in it. Proof it's toxic would want an independent inspector for that. A layman wouldn't know bad mold from just mold.

Former HOA President

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/04/2017 2:55 PM
Mark,

Keep in mind that my town home is in Virginia and needs to have concrete block between the homes. Hence, that was my experience.

However, your point is made.

Check local building codes.

Nope ... needs 2 hour fire rating.

Block is merely the cheapest solution.

Double overlapping 5/8 'fire rated' drywall on each side would also meet code PROVIDING that each layer is taped and sealed properly.

? ain't construction mgmt. fun ?

MarkM31 (Washington)
Posts: 494

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnB83 on 10/04/2017 7:13 PM

Nope ... needs 2 hour fire rating.

Block is merely the cheapest solution.

Double overlapping 5/8 'fire rated' drywall on each side would also meet code PROVIDING that each layer is taped and sealed properly.

? ain't construction mgmt. fun ?

I don't see how CMU could be cheaper than a framed two hour wall. There are a ton of options given by the Gypsum Association in their design manual. From everything I can find, only the outside face needs to be taped on a wall with two layers of Type X. The seams need to be staggered in most situations, but the seams of the inside sheets do not need to be taped.

Local codes and addmendments may differ

JustinB6 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thank you everyone for your advice and comments.

I forget that we don't get hurricanes or tornadoes here in California, so that's probably why concrete blocks are not routinely used here. My particular townhouse has neighbors on either side with common/ party walls. I don’t know how it is constructed, but I believe there is a partition of some kind between both of our gypsum boards/drywall. So, I don’t know how she can or did “see” my firewall. I seriously believe that my neighbor is fabricating the whole deal to impose a financial hardship on my family. As some of you have suggested, the CC&R should be the only thing that holds legal jurisdiction. According to our Townhouse Association’s CC&R, General rule of law is to apply. Here is an excerpt from that section of the CC&R:

Article VII Party Walls

Section 8.01
"Each wall which is built as part of the original construction of the homes upon the properties and placed on the dividing line between the lots shall constitute a party wall, and, to the extent not inconsistent with the provisions of this article VII, the general rule of law regarding party walls and Liability for property damage due to negligence or willful acts or omissions shall apply thereto.

Section 8.02
“If a party wall is destroyed or damaged by fire or any other casualty, any owner who has used the wall may restore it, and if the other owners thereafter make use of the wall, they shall contribute to the cost of restoration thereof in proportion to such use without prejudice, however, to the right of any such owners to call for a larger contribution from others under any rule of law regarding liability for negligent or willful acts or omissions.

This thing is so incredibly hard to read. But my interpretation is that this is a matter between me and my neighbor, not the HOA. When I contacted my homeowner’s insurance company they told me flat out, Insurance won’t cover mold. They told me no carrier they ever heard of covers mold (which I still am not sure is on my side of this internal firewall). Due to the fact, the neighbor’s shower’s slow leak most likely caused the alleged damage, the insurance also added, that a slow leak, not an abrupt incident, is not covered under the policy. So apparently, there is no getting repair money from my insurance company. HOA won’t pay for it because they state that the CC&R’s specify that Me and my neighbor are to split the cost. So then why is the HOA even involved? I feel they need to butt out. They tried to come out today to inspect, but I acted as if I wasn’t home. I feel there needs to be a meeting so we can find a time that works for all parties involved. They can’t just force their way about like some mafia organization.

In fact, I was reading something, somewhere, where it stated that my neighbor should of came to me 30 days prior to her tearing into the common wall to give me proper notice. Has anyone heard of something similar?
I just don’t see how it’s fair that her shower leaking causes me to put my hard-earned cash towards a repair like this, especially because neither the HOA’s insurance or my own will help with this cost.

I guess it’s time to lawyer up. But at the same time, I don’t want to spend the same if not more in legal costs as would have been spent on the proposed repair of the alleged issue.
My next home purchase will definitely not be in a place with an HOA.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JustinB6 on 10/04/2017 11:38 PM

HOA won’t pay for it because they state that the CC&R’s specify that Me and my neighbor are to split the cost. So then why is the HOA even involved?

Based on this thread and what you wrote, the HOA is involved because you and your neighbor don't seem to be friendly towards each other and the neighbor utilized the HOA as a go between to inform you of what they found.

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

NFPA + Best Practice = very expensive drywall installation.

You do have a point if mere code compliance is desired.

for the 'non-construction' folks, a reminder:

Code is the MINIMUM for safe human occupancy NOT necessarily good or best practice.

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By MarkM31 on 10/04/2017 9:39 PM

an afterthought:

this may be a load bearing wall which needs to remain standing AFTER the 'collapse' of surrounding building elements - try THAT with drywall

JeffT2 (Iowa)
Posts: 880

Posted:

Justin,

The HOA has been contacted by one of the owners with pictures and testimony that there is mold and plywood in the firewall, and the HOA knows that the walls were taken apart in that area and that the owner found mold on her side. It is very reasonable for the owner to bring this up to the HOA, and for the HOA to be concerned and to request further action to inspect and if necessary fix the problem.

Your reaction is to resist this and you "believe that my neighbor is fabricating the whole deal," you call it a nightmare, and you pretend to not be at home.

The HOA is going to feel forced into making you comply, and they (or your neighbor) will likely take legal action, send you a large legal bill and force you into a more extensive remediation than you would do on your own.

Forget the lawyer. You need to get over your hangups and get a good inspection done by a licensed inspector who will consider the entire construction, drill a few holes, take some pictures and do some tests. And you should start talking to the HOA right away, insist on a meeting, before they take legal action.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Justin

Like it or not, you have to investigate the issue. If it exists based on what you have said you will split the cost of the repair with the neighbor. The repair cost on the wall that is. Access to it is on your dime such as removal and replacement of internal wall, cabinets, etc.

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

..... This “new neighbor” of ours hit the ground running, by immediately renovating the place. .....

? Did you check or verify their obtaining ALL required building permits ?

Take it from there ..........

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JustinB6 on 10/04/2017 11:38 PM
Thank you everyone for your advice and comments.

I forget that we don't get hurricanes or tornadoes here in California, so that's probably why concrete blocks are not routinely used here. My particular townhouse has neighbors on either side with common/ party walls. I don’t know how it is constructed, but I believe there is a partition of some kind between both of our gypsum boards/drywall. So, I don’t know how she can or did “see” my firewall. I seriously believe that my neighbor is fabricating the whole deal to impose a financial hardship on my family. As some of you have suggested, the CC&R should be the only thing that holds legal jurisdiction. According to our Townhouse Association’s CC&R, General rule of law is to apply. Here is an excerpt from that section of the CC&R:

Article VII Party Walls

Section 8.01
"Each wall which is built as part of the original construction of the homes upon the properties and placed on the dividing line between the lots shall constitute a party wall, and, to the extent not inconsistent with the provisions of this article VII, the general rule of law regarding party walls and Liability for property damage due to negligence or willful acts or omissions shall apply thereto. This potentially notes that your State Laws apply for the issue.

Section 8.02
“If a party wall is destroyed or damaged by fire or any other casualty, any owner who has used the wall may restore it, and if the other owners thereafter make use of the wall, they shall contribute to the cost of restoration thereof in proportion to such use without prejudice, however, to the right of any such owners to call for a larger contribution from others under any rule of law regarding liability for negligent or willful acts or omissions. Potentially if it is a party wall ... each are to contribute equally for repairs. However, if as noted in the next paragraph the problem was due to the fact your neighbor had a slow shower leak ... they then have potential liability for causing the harm. However, this might mean taking your neighbor to court.

This thing is so incredibly hard to read. But my interpretation is that this is a matter between me and my neighbor, not the HOA. When I contacted my homeowner’s insurance company they told me flat out, Insurance won’t cover mold. They told me no carrier they ever heard of covers mold (which I still am not sure is on my side of this internal firewall). Due to the fact, the neighbor’s shower’s slow leak most likely caused the alleged damage, the insurance also added, that a slow leak, not an abrupt incident, is not covered under the policy. So apparently, there is no getting repair money from my insurance company. HOA won’t pay for it because they state that the CC&R’s specify that Me and my neighbor are to split the cost. So then why is the HOA even involved? Potentially the HOA is involved because they have the overall responsibility to insure the overall building is OK for all owners. I feel they need to butt out. They tried to come out today to inspect, but I acted as if I wasn’t home. I feel there needs to be a meeting so we can find a time that works for all parties involved. They can’t just force their way about like some mafia organization.

In fact, I was reading something, somewhere, where it stated that my neighbor should of came to me 30 days prior to her tearing into the common wall to give me proper notice. Has anyone heard of something similar? Makes sense ... but a question to ask an attorney.
I just don’t see how it’s fair that her shower leaking causes me to put my hard-earned cash towards a repair like this, especially because neither the HOA’s insurance or my own will help with this cost.

I guess it’s time to lawyer up. But at the same time, I don’t want to spend the same if not more in legal costs as would have been spent on the proposed repair of the alleged issue. Agree ... If the neighbors shower caused the issue then they potentially could have MORE liability for any repairs. You need to call around and see what any attorney will charge for a consultation. Some will be minimal and you night find others who are free for X amount of time. I had one a few years back who was not going to charge me even though they spent like two hours discussing my case. I insisted on giving them a little something for their extended time.
My next home purchase will definitely not be in a place with an HOA. LOL ... I would definately NOT purchase a Condo. My HOA is mostly in place to share the cost of irrigation water for individual homes. It is OK to buy in an HOA as long as you READ the documents and are aware of what the documents note.

JustinB6 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thanks for the great points and suggestions. I now, as you mentioned, believe that the HOA is just trying to ensure safety is being upheld. I have a family, I want everything to be safe.

I'm going to look/ask around with some real estate lawyers. I'll ask what they know about that 30 days notice before construction to the party wall. I calso have them look at the CC&R and they know state laws and codes. Great advice! If it is determined that it's her shower that caused all of this in the first place, I will definitely get a lawyer if the law points out she was liable. The lawyer might even help me at little or no cost until is determined legal action is going to be required, whereas I would pay for it.

I'm just upset with the neighbor and HOA president for not finding a time that I could observe the inspection as well. Once again in this process, I have been disregarded.

Agreed, the only HOA that is truly worth it is the ones that just keep up the landscaping.

JustinB6 (California)
Posts: 4

Posted:

Thanks again Janet, you rock!

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