On street parking. What's reasonable?

Started by ArtL1 • 25 replies • 2307 views

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ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140

Posted:

I'm in a gated HOA in FL (so the roads are privately owned by the HOA). Our current CC&R have some convoluted language that tries to prohibit habitual on-street parking by:

1) prohibiting on-street parking for more than 12 consecutive hours

2) prohibiting on-street parking of any vehicles for more than 48 non-consecutive hours in a 7 day period (i.e. if you rotate which car(s) are parked in the street, they all contribute to the 48 hour limit)

The association is allowed to tow vehicles in violation.

2 is pretty much unenforceable. Who's going to monitor the street in front of a home and add up all the hours during which any car is parked in the street?
Even 1 is hard to enforce...how do you know a car has been parked 12 consecutive hours unless you've been there watching it that entire time?

The board wants to improve/simplify these restrictions, but I think went a little too far in simplification...with their proposed change being any street parked vehicle between midnight and 5am can be towed.

I suspect the intent, both of the original text and the proposed amendment is that the HOA doesn't want members habitually parking cars in the street.

All of the homes in the HOA have 2 or 3 car garages, but most 3 car garages in reality are 2 car garages with "storage space". We have a mix of young families and retirees, so it's entirely possible for a single family to have 5 or 6 cars, and our driveways aren't that big (basically just a side driveway that approaches the garage).

So, in short, what we currently have is too convoluted to enforce. What the board is trying to get pushed through is, IMO, stupid. I'm trying to figure out if there's a reasonable middle ground.

Also...HOA CC&R's are, AFAIK, basically a contract and enforceable as such. How can parking restrictions in our CC&R be applied to guests of HOA members? If the board's amendment passes, and we have a party that lasts past midnight, can the HOA (successfully) be sued for towing cars belonging to our guests?

SheliaH (Indiana)
Posts: 6,964

Posted:

If you think the rules are unreasonable, why not raise your concerns to the board and see what happens? Better yet, talk to your neighbors to see what they think. If ALL OF YOU go to the board and express your concerns, perhaps the board can commission a special committee to review this portion of the CCRS to see what needs to be tweaked, or added or dumped altogether. CCR revisions usually require homeowner approval, so you'll need to check them to see how it's done properly.

Keep in mind just because you think these rules are convoluted and hard to enforce doesn't mean everyone else does. You didn't say how long you've lived in the community, but there may be some backstory on how these rules came to be. The developer may have put them in and that may have been a time where people didn't have four or five cars, and therefore not enough garage space. How wide are the streets - is on street parking causing traffic problems, such as creating blind spots at corners and possibly causing accidents? Too many cars on a narrow street might create problems if there's an emergency and an ambulance or fire truck has trouble getting through - how would you feel if something happened at your home and first responders were delayed because there were a bunch of vans, trucks and who knows what else parked on the street?

Your community may have also adopted this rule because there are some cities and towns where cars DO have to be moved after 12 hours or so - check the city ordinances and find out. All of this may play a rule in deciding if, and how your CCRs need to be amended.

Regarding your question on enforcing CCRs against guests of HOA members, members are ultimately responsible for the conduct of their guests, so if you don't take the time to tell your guests where they can and can't park, the HOA could eventually come after YOU for violations. So if you have a party that goes on and on, parking may be just one issue you have to deal with - what about noise? Do you want to pay for everyone parking tickets because you didn't bother to tell your guests in advance what the rules were?

As far as someone suing the HOA for being towed and winning, that depends on whichever argument the judge would go along with and there's no way to predict that. People sue or threaten to sue for all sorts of reasons, and that doesn't mean they'll win. I suspect your board may have consulted the association attorney already on what they need to keep in mind regarding towing (e.g. posting signs warning of possible towing in places where people can see them). If you don't know if they have, ask them.

I'm not saying the rules are good or bad because I don't live in your community and don't know how big it is - which by the way is yet another issue. Many developers don't put together communities with adequate parking - it's expensive and who can predict that people would go from one car to four and five car households?

Think about all this and suggest to your board that they commission a special committee to study the matter and make recommendations - and then join it so you can have a voice.

If it is not right do not do it; if it is not true do not say it. Marcus Aurelius

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Art,

You are correct that the covenants are treated as a contract between all owners who have them attached to their deed.

You are correct that the wording you provided of the current parking restriction is open for interpretation and difficult to enforce. However, the intent of that covenant is that there should be no overnight parking.

The wording of the proposed amendment is similar to wording many on this forum encourage. Easily understood and easily enforced.

How one uses their garage is not relevant. If you need more storage, there are options (although options one might prefer not to utilize). Using the garage for storage is a personal choice.

Based on your own posting, most homes have a three car garage. With a three car garage, there is likely enough parking for 5 or 6 vehicles (3 in the garage and 2 to 3 in the driveway). Yes, it would suck to have to move vehicles around every day. However, you agreed to comply with the covenants when you purchased the home. Therefore, the argument of most have 5 or 6 vehicles is almost mute. Remember, how one chooses to use their garage is a personal choice and not an issue for the Association.

In all the governing documents I have read, the member (owner of the home) is responsible for the actions of their family, guests or tenants. The streets are private. Hence the Association certainly would have the right to tow any vehicle in violation of the parking rules (expecting that the Association is in compliance with County towing regulations).

I know this isn't what you wanted to hear.

I hope it helps to explain things.

Tim

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I see it the way Tim does.

Residents choose to use their garages for storage even though it creates problems parking. Buyers read restrictions before they purchase and then lives change when they add more people to their households...or more cars. But the contract remains the same. One option, of course, is to move to a neighborhood that's way more lenient about street parking.

ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140

Posted:

Tim, I just wondered what sort of trouble might be caused if they started towing party guest cars. i.e. cars belonging to people who were not parties to the HOA CC&R.

As I said, I think I know the intent...but I think they went too far in simplifying the text to the point that it got stupid. I'm not a fan of street parking, and my own family only has 2 cars (which fit in our garage)...but we have kids, and I can see us eventually having 4 cars, and having to play musical cars to get garaged cars in/out if everyone is home. I'm far more concerned with the occasional large party (not all parties are noise-fests), where not all the cars can be fit in a driveway, and the party goes beyond midnight. As worded, they've made no provision for exceptions.

I've lived here about 10 years (moved in back when the neighborhood was only about half or less developed), and the restrictions we have are the crap that a poorly trained monkey cut & pasted for the developer. There are numerous "mistakes" in them that obviously weren't meant as written, but as written, I doubt there's a home in the neighborhood not in violation of at least two of the restrictions. Before anyone asks, there is a provision in the documents for fixing errors without having to go through the amendment process, but the time limit on that expired long ago when the HOA was still under developer control.

We did have a committee for considering amendments to the governing documents. The Board more or less ignored their work, told the HOA attorney what they wanted, and here we are. If the online reaction is accurate, the board's proposed amendments don't have a chance of passing. Pitchforks, tar, and feathers wouldn't surprise me. I'm just wondering if we can find some middle ground between our original language and the new language.

The streets are wide enough that you can easily get around if there's an occasional street-parked car, but they can become a nuisance (especially if you have a neighbor who habitually parks a full sized pickup with a large covered cargo trailer a few yds away from your driveway entrance) and I think any street-parked car becomes a safety hazard as it reduces visibility of small children or animals that might wander into the road.

What's odd to me is the choice of midnight to 5am. When I had the above mentioned neighbor, I wouldn't have cared what they parked in the street from midnight to 5am. It was the daytime hours, when it made getting in or out of our driveway more difficult that bothered my wife and me.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Art

The bottom line of what they are saying is quite common: No Overnight Parking.

ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/30/2017 5:22 PM
Art

The bottom line of what they are saying is quite common: No Overnight Parking.

That's what I think they were trying to accomplish, but "no overnight parking" and "we can tow any car found parked in the street between midnight and 5am" are completely different things.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Our CCRs say no overnight parking, we have one owner who walks around 4:00 am and checks then. The assumption is that if the car is parked at that time, it's probably been there overnight. We give three written notices on the vehicle and a knock and talk before towing. If the owner feels that they haven't been there "overnight", they have plenty of opportunity to argue their case.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

ArtL1 (Florida)
Posts: 140

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DouglasK1 on 09/30/2017 5:50 PM
Our CCRs say no overnight parking, we have one owner who walks around 4:00 am and checks then. The assumption is that if the car is parked at that time, it's probably been there overnight. We give three written notices on the vehicle and a knock and talk before towing. If the owner feels that they haven't been there "overnight", they have plenty of opportunity to argue their case.

4am as a "catch and tow" time seems more reasonable than midnight to 5am. That combined with allowing each home a certain number of "free passes", maybe as many as a dozen per calendar year, and I think this could be considered by most to be "reasonable".

JohnB83 (South Carolina)
Posts: 124

Posted:

'Most' authorities use "NO PARKING 2:00 AM to 6:00 AM" when overnight parking is undesirable.

LetA (Nevada)
Posts: 2,679

Posted:

My CC&R's state no on street parking, and they also state that garages are not to be used as a living space or storage.
But who needs rules when an owner has two disabled children and purchase a 16 passenger bus with wheelchair/ gurney lift and park it on the street
because the owner don't have an RV parking pad, and parks said 16 passenger bus on the street.

Similar situation where a family of a severely incontinent child purchases a minie winnie RV and parks it in their driveway.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Art

There have been many discussions about overnight parking ranging from doing nothing to hiring a security guard to enforce. There are many answers/methods.

One thing I warn you about. Towing can be an open wound. Do not tow. Set up a fining schedule and fine but take my advice. Stay away from towing.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

If the intent is to prevent overnight parking, what is the reasoning behind it? That restriction continues to mystify me.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

from those areas where I've heard arguments, there are two main reasons for prohibiting parking:

1) Width of streets making it difficult for emergency response and larger vehicles (trash, moving vans, construction equip, etc.) to get to locations within the community.

2) Aesthetics, which is subjective.

Personally, I don't care if a few vehicles are parked on the street. However, if the street is lined with vehicles parked on the streets, I would be turned off in buying in such a development.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2017 6:20 AM
from those areas where I've heard arguments, there are two main reasons for prohibiting parking:

1) Width of streets making it difficult for emergency response and larger vehicles (trash, moving vans, construction equip, etc.) to get to locations within the community.

2) Aesthetics, which is subjective.

Personally, I don't care if a few vehicles are parked on the street. However, if the street is lined with vehicles parked on the streets, I would be turned off in buying in such a development.

And those are the arguments I would suspect would be made.
"Safety" might be another where cars in the street make it difficult to see kids, and increases the chances of a kid appearing from between parked cars.

However, the vast majority of these rules seem to limit NIGHTTIME parking.
Emergencies happen at all hours of the day, and arguably more during the daytime.
Nighttime is generally dark and aesthetics are probably not a priority.
Kids don't play as much during the night as during the day.

KerryL1 (California)
Posts: 14,550

Posted:

I also think, Dave, that cars parked overnight could attract campers and others who don't actually s dwell in your HOA. They also could be basically abandons vehicles.

When my sister & husb. moved to Bend OR, with mny nearby outdoor rec areas, they were very careful to make sure the HOAs they previewed did not permit rec vehicles, boats or trucks, including pickups in the driveways or on the street. Not easy to find, but they do have a home in such an HOA.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2017 6:20 AM
from those areas where I've heard arguments, there are two main reasons for prohibiting parking:

1) Width of streets making it difficult for emergency response and larger vehicles (trash, moving vans, construction equip, etc.) to get to locations within the community.

2) Aesthetics, which is subjective.

Personally, I don't care if a few vehicles are parked on the street. However, if the street is lined with vehicles parked on the streets, I would be turned off in buying in such a development.

Therein lies the rub as in how many are to many? Me, I prefer none.

CarlJ2 (Texas)
Posts: 194

Posted:

Not letting folks park on their subdivision's streets is one of the many HOA related rules that mystifys me as well.

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By DaveD3 on 10/02/2017 6:15 AM
If the intent is to prevent overnight parking, what is the reasoning behind it? That restriction continues to mystify me.

In our case, there are a couple of CCR paragraphs regarding street parking. One, I mentioned upthread was a prohibition on overnight parking. Two, street parking is only allowed on a temporary basis, such as for gatherings or workers. The developer wrote the CCRs, so I have no way of knowing intent, but the overnight prohibition makes it easier to enforce the second clause so that might be why it's there. Some of the intent might have been to limit using homes as boarding houses by limiting how much parking each house has. All homes here have 2 or 3 car garages, and at least enough room to park a pair of vehicles without blocking the sidewalk.

Our streets are not wide enough for people to park on both sides and still allow garbage and fire trucks to pass through. If we did allow street parking, it would have to be one side only. Because of the street width, prohibiting street parking may have been a county requirement to approve the subdivision, I'd have go find and review the County terms of approval to see. I do know there are some CCR provisions that need county approval to modify, I'm not sure offhand about parking.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/02/2017 9:33 AM

Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2017 6:20 AM

Personally, I don't care if a few vehicles are parked on the street. However, if the street is lined with vehicles parked on the streets, I would be turned off in buying in such a development.

Therein lies the rub as in how many are to many? Me, I prefer none.

I agree.

The problem within Associations that limit parking is they can't say x number of cars can be parked on the street. They have to allow all or none.

CarlJ2 (Texas)
Posts: 194

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2017 3:05 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/02/2017 9:33 AM

Therein lies the rub as in how many are to many? Me, I prefer none.

I agree.

The problem within Associations that limit parking is they can't say x number of cars can be parked on the street. They have to allow all or none.

With as many powers as Associations have, what would stop the Board from saying "...shall only have 12 cars on Smith Street between the hours of 2 am and 5 am" I agree it would be ill advised, but I don't see how they could not do it.

DaveD3 (Michigan)
Posts: 796

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By KerryL1 on 10/02/2017 8:57 AM
I also think, Dave, that cars parked overnight could attract campers and others who don't actually s dwell in your HOA. They also could be basically abandons vehicles.

When my sister & husb. moved to Bend OR, with mny nearby outdoor rec areas, they were very careful to make sure the HOAs they previewed did not permit rec vehicles, boats or trucks, including pickups in the driveways or on the street. Not easy to find, but they do have a home in such an HOA.

If the streets are public, the HOA is absolutely powerless to prevent non-members from legally parking on the streets. (except possibly in the case of guests of members)

If they're not public, then they can go down the trespassing route.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By CarlJ2 on 10/02/2017 4:59 PM

Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2017 3:05 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/02/2017 9:33 AM

Therein lies the rub as in how many are to many? Me, I prefer none.

I agree.

The problem within Associations that limit parking is they can't say x number of cars can be parked on the street. They have to allow all or none.

And what will the 13th person do?

All or none I say.

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Carl,

Could they? Probably.

Should they? In my opinion, no.

The problem arises in how to determine who may or may not without discrimination and provide a method for rotation (yearly lottery perhaps) and hardship cases.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By ArtL1 on 09/30/2017 5:32 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 09/30/2017 5:22 PM
Art

The bottom line of what they are saying is quite common: No Overnight Parking.

That's what I think they were trying to accomplish, but "no overnight parking" and "we can tow any car found parked in the street between midnight and 5am" are completely different things.

They are essentially the same thing with one difference ... the "we can tow" part informs everyone exactly what will happen when they violate. They both insinuate No Overnight Parking and just do it in different manner.

CarlJ2 (Texas)
Posts: 194

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/02/2017 6:46 PM

Posted By CarlJ2 on 10/02/2017 4:59 PM

Posted By TimB4 on 10/02/2017 3:05 PM

Posted By JohnC46 on 10/02/2017 9:33 AM

Therein lies the rub as in how many are to many? Me, I prefer none.

I agree.

The problem within Associations that limit parking is they can't say x number of cars can be parked on the street. They have to allow all or none.

And what will the 13th person do?

All or none I say.

That is my point, it does not make sense to limit it to an arbitrary number.

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