HOA DOcuments How to Request

Started by RobertaS2 • 16 replies • 1238 views

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RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

Recently, during a Board election, someone running–a previous President, Vice President, and Board Director for 15-17 years–was, at the election, was ordered by the Association attorney to produce his marriage certificate to prove he was married to his wife of a different name. When she offered she would produce it in fifteen minutes, the Association lawyer then demanded he be put on the deed (It was 8PM and the deed, like many families, is in her name.) Of course this was not possible on the spot and this same lawyer who never questioned his validity before, disqualified him and his wife had to take his place on the ballot. The lawyer then disqualified enough proxies to ensure the election to the current president's slate, similar proxies to those that on previous elections were approved.

Later, we discovered person mail between the lawyer to the president trying to hide documents or at least try keep them confidential, or hidden, from regular members. This letter looks more like the attorney was working directly for the president and not the board.

How can members/ how should members demand these documents in the safest way? I am not a lawyer. Some are e-mail. Others pertain to a potential lawsuit against the president. Some pertain to the election and how to rig it.

Also, all minutes have been scrubbed of bad conduct or pertinent information regarding lawsuit that will cost the Association 180,000.

This is so unfortunate. Any help or guidance is greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

RichardP13 (California)
Posts: 3,868

Posted:

Gotta love an officer of the courts.

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

Yep.

Also, this HOA is in Michigan.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Roberta

The election aside, legal discussions going on are privy to the BOD and the attorney. Quite often such discussions take place in Executive Session. If any legal action happens then all owners should be notified, until then, the information is privy.

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

John,
Thank you for your reply.
Our bylaws state that any member can request to see any document.I just don't know the correct procedure for trying to do that. Hence my forum discussion/question.

The legal discussion between the lawyer and president that we have includes:

"I don't know that such a move (trying to keep it–a damning engineering report that names huge blame on the president–confidential) would actually protect the Association from disclosure (it certainly does not protect it from co-owner review), but in the event that we did need to protect it for some reason in the future, I had it labeled confidential so that I can attempt to protect it as work product or under the attorney/client privilege."

Which certainly looks to me at least like he is trying to protect the president, as a persnal lawyer, and not in the interest of the association, for which he is being paid.

It was also an exchange that did not copy to other Board members, only him.

The bylaws also state that no past or present Board member may be sued. But they could be exposed and voted by a majority of the Association off the Board. Which would be a good thing.

The anticipated expense is so great that other Association maintenance is being left undone.

Any further comments or ideas?

Our greatest hope is to have a cooperating Board, not a coverup Board, and as the man they would not let run is both immensely popular in our community and also would immediately have the expertise to understand and explain that engineering report, the election and coverup seem obvious attempts to keep him from returning to the Board.

Thanks again.

-R

DouglasK1 (Florida)
Posts: 2,046

Posted:

As far as the disqualification is concerned, if your association governing documents require directors to be members, then the spouse of a person on the deed would not be eligible. If they don't require directors to be members, then anybody can serve. Check your bylaws and CCRs to see what they say.

In Florida any member can request to inspect (and potentially at their expense, copy) the association records. Inspecting can be better than asking them to send copies because you can look for records of interest instead of hopefully asking for the right ones. Again, in Florida you could cite the state statute to make sure they know their responsibilities. I'm not sure if MI has similar laws, but you might want to research.

In general, minutes should be a succinct, listing actions taken, not discussions. If your minutes just list when/where/who, and what motions were made and their outcomes, then that is sufficient.

Escaped former treasurer and director of a self managed association.

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

On our bylaws, it says directors must be legal member, but it also states that if your home is rented to multiple families, like you have roommates or have in some fashion turned your home into a multi-family dwelling, then you can appoint a representative with all member rights. Actually, on this member-issue point, they could win the argument and did. But it is something that was never acted on before and was only acted on to stop the member's husband from running again. They also used that bylaw clause to keep one family's proxy out, as they sent their thirty-year-old son's proxy who bought the house, but the deed hadn't been entered by the county, which can take time. They DID allow the son to vote by proxy the previous year, even before he bought it from his parents and they DID allow him to run for the Board thaat year too, although he was not yet an "owner" then. (The demand for the marriage certificate–the couple have been married about thirty years–was way weird.)(They also advised the wife that she could divorce her husband and make him a paying renter to qualify. Right. They had a whole set of tricks up their sleazy sleeves.)

Some of us are talking about changing that bylaw by a majority vote so any owner can appoint a person to represent them. For many reasons, spouses might not be put on the deed.

I do wonder, aside from putting someone on the deed, how an owner-member could, in case of illness, old age, coma, being out of the country, going insane :-D over bylaws, etc. appoint someone (like a guardian ad Litem) to vote for them?

Thank you very much–ALL–for any and all answers. Very much appreciated!

-R

GeorgeR8 (Arizona)
Posts: 182

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertaS2 on 09/22/2017 3:08 PM
On our bylaws, it says directors must be legal member, but it also states that if your home is rented to multiple families, like you have roommates or have in some fashion turned your home into a multi-family dwelling, then you can appoint a representative with all member rights. Actually, on this member-issue point, they could win the argument and did. But it is something that was never acted on before and was only acted on to stop the member's husband from running again. They also used that bylaw clause to keep one family's proxy out, as they sent their thirty-year-old son's proxy who bought the house, but the deed hadn't been entered by the county, which can take time. They DID allow the son to vote by proxy the previous year, even before he bought it from his parents and they DID allow him to run for the Board thaat year too, although he was not yet an "owner" then. (The demand for the marriage certificate–the couple have been married about thirty years–was way weird.)(They also advised the wife that she could divorce her husband and make him a paying renter to qualify. Right. They had a whole set of tricks up their sleazy sleeves.)

Some of us are talking about changing that bylaw by a majority vote so any owner can appoint a person to represent them. For many reasons, spouses might not be put on the deed.

I do wonder, aside from putting someone on the deed, how an owner-member could, in case of illness, old age, coma, being out of the country, going insane :-D over bylaws, etc. appoint someone (like a guardian ad Litem) to vote for them?

Thank you very much–ALL–for any and all answers. Very much appreciated!

-R

I have only seen a representative when there are multiple owners not multiple residents.

In my association if you appoint someone to speak for you, you have forfeited your right to speak.

There may be a date of record that would prevent the son's proxy from being counted.

Membership is who is on the deed not if they are married. Are you sure about that part?

In my state we don't allow proxies but being out of the country, illness, old age, doesn't prevent a person from using an absentee ballot. We only allow owners to vote but coma and insanity hasn't come up yet.

JohnC46 (South Carolina)
Posts: 14,265

Posted:

Roberta

Most docs call for one vote per home/lot and if the home/lot is owned by more then one person then one person must be designated as the voter. This is true if husband/wife, multi owners, etc. We had an estranged couple come to our Annual Meeting both arguing each should be the voter. Our attorney told them to go in the other room and decide. They both left.

Owners are not entitled to all documents. Some are privy to the BOD only such as delinquent lists, legal issues/discussions until some legal action is taken, a financial agreement between and owner and the BOD to pay off fines, delinquencies, hearings between a BOD and an owner such as appealing a fine, etc.

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

The HOA should have one member of the board to discuss things with the HOA lawyer. That is usually the President of the HOA. The lawyer does work for the ENTIRE HOA and NOT individual members. Having 1 person on the board representing lessens the expense, contact, and confusion with the issues needing that lawyer. So I do not see a real issue with that relationship if it's just between the lawyer/president communicating. You sure don't want to be the one who has to go to court representing the HOA.

Having someone represent you isn't a good idea. Honestly each household has 1 vote. Being on the board doesn't double that vote. You just vote on different things. The single member can change rules, elect board members, and remove board with that 1 vote. A board member still retains that same voting but their vote is used to represent the HOA on a daily operations decisions.

As for documents. There are some your not privilege to. We don't give non-board members collection reports. We certainly would not give anyone documents in an ongoing lawsuit. We would tell you we are being sued. The results of that lawsuit may or not be revealed depending on what the judge decides. Otherwise, expenditures, meeting notes, and by-laws are open.

Former HOA President

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

Thank you so much for your responses! I am learning!

But here's something new about "members." The sitting president who insisted the resident was not able to run because–with his lawyer–the deed was in his wife's name...

(and that you've convinced me is in the bylawas so until they change that's the now presiding thing -one MUST be on the deed...)

But we ran a check on who is on the other deeds and come to find out...

The president of the Board is NOT ON HIS OWN DEED EITHER, JUST his wife!

WooHooo! How do we handle that???

TimB4 (Tennessee)
Posts: 21,059

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertaS2 on 09/23/2017 8:51 AM

WooHooo! How do we handle that???

You bring it to the attention of the Board and inform them that per our governing documents, they are not eligible to serve.

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

Do I need a lawyer? Should I bring one with me?

My Dad in Florida–retired doctor who was on several Boards–is concerned that I might need to be careful and to do this really right.

I just love this board! Am new here, but already so much support and I am learning so much! I have already told other friends about this amazing group. Thank you ALL!

MelissaP1 (Alabama)
Posts: 13,836

Posted:

What do you need the lawyer for? Simply ask the question at the board meeting about verification of names on deeds. Maybe NOT point out the President status. However, plant the seeds in the heads of maybe there should be a "deed check" to clarify the owners. The Secretary may be responsible for this. A committee could be set up with someone willing to do it.

Although would not jump to much conclusion. A married couple may count as "1". Which means either/or spouse can be a board member. I had a married couple who would switch out every year who would represent. So although they prevented the other person. It sounds like a last minute decision without the actual research of status of Married couples. Do they count as 1 or are they separate if on a deed?

Former HOA President

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

A lawyer might help to do it right.
We have now the truth and proof of what we need to dismiss the main bad director/president.
But we highly suspect (by his historic demeanor) and believe he may not go easily , i.e., give up his office, the keys to the clubhouse and offices, or the password to the HOA website, without a fight, and we are not lawyers or policemen. So we want to be well armored, protected, and have the laws of the HOA and enforcement of them ready to back us.
That is one reason–along with my Dad's concern, mentioned earlier–that I asked if we should have a lawyer or some sort of official to officiate.

JanetB2 (Colorado)
Posts: 4,219

Posted:

Quote:

Posted By RobertaS2 on 09/23/2017 8:51 AM
Thank you so much for your responses! I am learning!

But here's something new about "members." The sitting president who insisted the resident was not able to run because–with his lawyer–the deed was in his wife's name... IF the Deed is in the Wife's name only then the HUSBAND is potentially NOT a member of the HOA!!!

(and that you've convinced me is in the bylawas so until they change that's the now presiding thing -one MUST be on the deed...)

But we ran a check on who is on the other deeds and come to find out...

The president of the Board is NOT ON HIS OWN DEED EITHER, JUST his wife! Potentially depending on your Governing Documents (CCR's and Bylaws) AND State Law ... That individual may need to immediately resign and/or just be replaced by the HOA board due to potentially being ineligible based on governing documents and State Laws..

WooHooo! How do we handle that??? If not eligible should be as stated above.

RobertaS2 (Michigan)
Posts: 81

Posted:

Thanks Janet too. I love Colorado. Lived there for many years!

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